What's your attitude toward police?

[azshooter]

If you don't like the way I police - When you're woken up in the middle of the night by some crack head breaking in through your downstairs kitchen window... call the pizza man.  Besides I'll probably be too busy setting up a speed trap or better yet sleeping in my patrol unit behind k-mart.

Eight years away from a thirty year retirement - KMA

....don't forget shooting the family dog.

[pills]

    I took the CCL classes and decided not to get the permit. The reason is I know some HP is going to stop me when he runs my plate. They think there the only ones that should carry. HP's-3. Make this legal-Vigilance Committe- a group extralegally assuming authority for summary action professedly to keep order and punish crime because of the alleged lack or failure of the usual law-enforcement agencies. Know take out these three words and read it-extalegally, professedly, and alleged! All cops a 5.

Where do you live that a CCL is tied in to your tag?

[Questor]

Topper:

That's actually a good idea. In my area a pizza delivery man is certain to get there before the police, and will probably be armed.

Seriously, though. In a case like the one you describe, the last thing on my mind is calling the cops. I'll be thinking of stopping the threat. The cops are no good at that because they're not available quickly enough.

[pills]

Not any place that I know of. I dont know of all of them though. I know people with CCW that dont have DLs

[Mikey]

I think it has gotten to the point where it is 'them' or 'us'.  My respect level has dropped to below zero (sorry Questor, I know this is out of the range you provided but that's about it).  Power hungry, near stupid and rat nasty bunch of little dickheads.  The most recent is the minature deputy who stomps into the local convenience store for coffee in the morning, just lookin' for a fight.  He has already been told that he stands in the coffee line just like everyone else and I guess he doesn't like it too much.  But, that's too bad.

Almtnman:  if this were the wild west, you would be able to stand up for yourself and you wouldn't have to worry about a bunch of thugs because back then you and your neighbors wouldn't have tolerated them the way they are 'accepted' today.  JMHO.  Mikey.

[Questor]

Holy mackerel! Are you living in Mexico?

[jpm]

I remember the days when a cop walked up to you, and just wanted to ask  how you were doing.  We had no fear of the police then.  Now I,m sorry to say, the police have engendered a sense of fear in the people.  Too many Ninja suits, get the job done no matter who gets hurt in the process, demand respect when none is given, and myfavorite, I,m handcuffing you for my and your protection.  When did this become normal?  My son is a police chief in a 30 man force, and he doesn,t go along with this nonsense.  He refused to arm his officers with tasers, because of the abuse he has seen in larger depts.  His attitude with his officers is, if you are afraid to get physical when needed, you don,t need to be a cop.  In my mind he,s a good cop.  There must be others out there like him but they never get the publicity the ninja suited types get.

[pills]

I am going to start sounding like a cheerleader here. I know that there are bad cops out there. There is no denying it. Some have done crazy stuff that gives the good ones a bad name. I think we have to be careful painting the who picture with the same brush. As a gun owner I cringe everytime I hear of a gun being used in a crime or a kid shooting a friend accidently. I know the media paints all gun owners as bad when these things happen.

jpm I respectfully disagree with your sons logic. I have personally seen the taser deployed when the only other option was a Glock. A mentally distrubed man running down the street naked with a machate trying to make someone commit suicide for him. Following that logic he would not issue his officers guns because some folks in other departments have misused them. If he knew what a lot of older officers around here have done with maglights his officers would be walking around in the dark.

A good tool that someone misuses does not a bad tool make.

When I was fourteen I was detained for supposedly flipping off an officer. I was actually giving the peace sign to a friend on the sidewalk. I happened to be doing this through the t-tops on a camaro I was riding in. The cop was passing by and did a U turn and pulled us over. He was cussing and screaming at me for no reason. Threatened to take me to jail etc.

He is still a cop today. When I was a reserve I asked several good officers about them and none of them could stand him. They had been in more fights because of him than they cared to talk about. We discussed how he was making the entire force look bad and I asked why they dont get rid of him. Three little letters. F O P.  Everytime something would come up the FOP would step in and make sure he didnt get canned. He is still in the same position he was 15 years ago and will never get promoted but until he does something really bad or retires he is here to stay.

[jpm]

Pills, I see your point, but I ran past my son, the scenario you mentioned.  Mike said, lets get this straight, a naked man with a machete, runs toward me or my officers with  suicide in mind?   He'd get his wish.  It doesn,t get much more deadly than this.  Tasers have been known not to work of pcp users.  This man needs to be stopped instantly, no matter what his state of mind is.   When an officer stops to physcoanalize a man attacking him with a deadly weapon, it usually means a dead officer!

[pills]

This particular instance the officers had encountered the guy before and knew when he was off his meds he acted up. Under most circumstances he would have been DRT. Luckily the taser was deployed and tragedy averted. There are instances where the taser does not work. Improper penetration of barbs. Offenders that are high on pcp or meth. There are times when a taser has prevented someone having to use lethal force. I have yet to encounter an officer that has nightmares about using a taser. That can't always be said about lethal. Even when officers are justified in using deadly force it is still something they carry with them.

An instructor I had was talking about the only time he was sued for using exessive force. He was on the stand testifying. He explained how he had sprayed the subject with OC to no avail. The man continued to fight and so my instructor hit him with his maglight. The judge asked why he used the maglight. My instructor straight faced told the judge he just cleaned his gun and didnt want to shoot it just yet. Several in the courtroom laughed. The judge didnt find it as funny but the case ended up getting dismissed.

[Mnswede]

Except for a few Officers/Deputies that I know personnally, I have total disbain for LEO's.  I have even less than total dibain for State/ County Attorneys Officers/desk flyers and many Judges to boot.  As for road officers and their running license plates of vehicles to try and find a "criminal", or minor traffic pullovers that you don't get ticketed for because they think you are running drugs or are gangbangers. 

Because of outright lies and failing to investigate several incidents by two Investigators, my name was dragged through the mud and several other things happened that I almost lost everything I owed.  I was found to be innocent of all charges and accusations three years later and many thousands out of my pocket.  I like LEO's and Attorneys, Not!  I can also add Doctors to this list also for all their lies in dealing with Workers Comp.  I mistrust all the above until they prove themselves other wise.

In this day, you are guilty until you prove your innocense and it will cost you finnancially, maybe everything you have to prove your innocents.  Most of those incarcerated in the jails and prison today had to take a lawyer that got paid by the state to represent them.  They got what they paid for, and probally coped a plea to a lesser offense to just get it over because the lawyer representing them didn't want to put much into their defense.  Most of these crimminals were guilty, that isn't the point.  What happens to an individual that gets railroaded by a bad LEO/County Attorney Office?  They get just what they paid for!!!

[canon6]

I am a retired LEO,I have been city cop ,held every job in a Sheriffs Department,including Sheriff ,so I speak with over twenty years experience.Most of the posts here are right on ,to quote ex LAPD  COP Gates"the only thing wrong with my officers is that they come from the human race" and I am sure for every bad story there are as many good stories out there It all depends whose ox is being gored   my2c  Doug

[Cement Man]

My Dad was a police officer and a fireman.  I was also a firefighter, EMT, and rescue technician.  Our department covered a major city interstate expressway and we frequently worked closely with several police agencies responding to all different types of calls.  I have several friends who are LEO's.  They are good people - otherwise I wouldn't respect them personally and wouldn't consider them friends.  I don't like to generalize too much about classes or types of people, because I have seen good and bad (and everything in between) in every occupation.  Authority is sometimes too much to handle for certain people.  I have had unknowledgeable police officers arrive at "my" accident scene and start directing where to position our rigs, etc. even though they had no clue why they were strategically staged as they were.  But, I have also met receptionists in doctor's offices who think they are dictators.  I judge police officers like everyone else - on a case by case basis.
Having said that, I do not care for some of the trends I see - hoods, helmets, jump boots, and unnecessarily heavy-handed tactics, when inappropriate.   

[beemanbeme]

First off, let me say, I have never been ticketed nor hassled for "doing nothing".  And, in truth, 6 miles over the speed limit is breaking the law.  'course its not breaking the law when you do it but if its some zithead in a jacked up Camero then its "let's get that a$$hole off the streets".
Most of the cops I have known personally have been motivated by the higher calling of community service, and to a few, a very few, it was getting to wear a gun, hit on chicks, and free donuts. 
My contacts with cops as a criminal has been a case of their matching my attitude.  Cops aren't actors, they're re-actors.  You come on as a bad-a$$ or give them a lot of belligerent grief, guess what you're gonna get back, in spades. 
Of the cops I have known or interacted with, I'd have to give them a 9.9 to take into consideration the few jerks out there.  The problem is, you tend to remember the jerks and not the good guys.

[S.S.]

I was a law enforcement officer for many years, And the Corruption and things such as that were the reason I left. Someone above mentioned the Coffee shop and the officer thinking he goes to the front of the line. Not legal ! Any favoritism towards an officer of the law "IS" a bribe !
If the local Waffle House or I-hop (Or anywhere else for that matter) give a Law officer a discount
that is a Bribe Or Gratuity under the law ! One of the Chiefs I used to work for would fire an officer on the spot for it ! It would go in their record that they had accepted a bribe also ! Most probably never worked in law enforcement again because of it.  He would also tell whatever business it was to not attempt to bribe his officers anymore ! If that officer comes stomping in again, bring this up to him ! I would wager he will get his coffee elsewhere afterwards. I do still know some good officers, but they are few and far between ! I can count them on my fingers there are so few !
Most are Gung-Ho jerks ! Chances are the Jerk officers that you know are the Kids who were picked on in school and are now trying to prove something to themselves. I can assure you that a police officers worst stop to make is on an ex-officer.... We know all the little tricks and can't be intimidated. I have made some so frustrated that they simply got back into their car and left !
Smyrna, Georgia (Several miles west of Atlanta) is one of the worst places I have ever encountered for Jerks... Avoid it or go through so quietly as to avoid drawing attention to yourself ! I embarrased one officer there so badly that I thought he was going to shoot me ! He was giving a bunch of teens more grief than I thought they deserved. So I set him straight what the law "REALLY" was compared to what he was telling them. I do not like the current trends in Law enforcement Apparel either. Military Fatigues have no place in law enforcement. Black hoods and things such as that either! Something else that some of you folks may need to look into is How much POWER your local sheriff (an elected official) actually has... You may be surprised, shocked and maybe a little fearful ! Judge well who you put in that seat !

[choctaw]

I know that policemen tend to feel unwanted by society and can become depressed by that idea.

For eighteen years I have done the very best job I can do.  Feeling unwanted by society?  I think not.

[torque]

Without them it would still be like the wild, wild west, everybody would have to stand up for themselves.

Would you and your family be up to the challenge of taking on a bunch of thugs by yourself everywhere you went?

I'm sorry, but that is line of thought is why we have such a police state and everyone crying to the government "help me"!

Everyone has to stand up for themselves NOW.  We have to take on thugs everyday NOW.  The police are a totally reactionary organization.  They show up AFTER the crime has occured. 

I have nothing against police officers themselves, but I believe the job has turned into one of a tax collector and a street enforcer.  Every family should be able and willing to take care of themselves.  Every man should be willing to stand up for his family and neighbors with force.  That is what makes him a man.  Not calling the cops and watching a crime happen.  I was watching a crime show on TLC the other night.  In it, a man watches over a fence  another man beat and drown his wife.  After she stopped struggling, he ran inside and called the cops.  The cops were patting him on the back for being so brave as to call.  I call him a coward for not jumping the fence and intervening.  Hell, yell, scream, throw something at him.  Better yet grab a gun and MAKE him stop.  I am sorry sir but this IS the wild, wild west and unfortunately it's people who think like you do who keep people believing that they can't/shouldn't stand up for themselves andr their neighbors.  Because then they would be ...."Vigilantes"...gasp!!! 

Once again, I have nothing against the officers themselves.  Most want to serve society and help keep others safe.  I believe they should be the arm of the law to keep peace when possible, and to solve crimes when possible.  I do not think they should be used as body guards who are expected to "protect" me. 

[Brett]

By the way the "wild west" is a Hollywood fallacy.  There is far more violent crime today than there was in the days of the wild west.  Here is a simple truth ...The majority of thugs and criminals are nothing but lazy cowards who would rather not get hurt or killed while practising their trade and target victims they perceive to be week or defenceless.  In the old west of yesterday most everyone was packing so there was a far greater chance of the thugs and criminals getting shot on the spot by their intended victims and folks were more apt to mind their manors.  And the legal system of the time would have said "well, he (the criminal) had it coming." In today's "civilized" society there are far fewer armed citizens presenting a greater opportunity for the thugs and criminals.  And woe be to someone who uses lethal force in this day and age to protect himself, his family or his property. 

Think about it... you probably can only name a hand full of famous criminals from the old west who each only killed a handful of people at most.   Now pick up the local newspaper in any big city today and read the police blotter.   Now tell us how wild was the "wild west".

[S.S.]

Someone above stated that most officers are in it because they wanted to serve the public and so on.
Very, Very Few ! I did it for a lot of years and in all honesty that was never the reason. I did it because it was a secure job
that was not going to disappear over night, or move out of the country. Many others are reservists or ex-military
that can not shake the Spit-and-polish lifestyle.. Most others are just wanting to be MACHO - MEN with authority..
Few, and very few are in it for the public service. Out of the departments I worked for, I could count them on just my fingers (I would not be in that count)... Those are the really good officers that really stand out. I knew an officer many years ago who worked for the Smyrna Georgia police department (Now full of Jerks mostly) His name was Stacy Fuller.
He was killed going to the aid of another officer who was exchanging shots with a perp from a traffic stop.
He worked security for a local game room and when the kids there found out he had been killed, They all wept !
A bunch of high-school kids crying over a police officers death tells volumes about the man. He was a good cop !
There are few like him anymore.

[Almtnman]

Without them it would still be like the wild, wild west, everybody would have to stand up for themselves.

Would you and your family be up to the challenge of taking on a bunch of thugs by yourself everywhere you went?

I'm sorry, but that is line of thought is why we have such a police state and everyone crying to the government "help me"!

Everyone has to stand up for themselves NOW.  We have to take on thugs everyday NOW. 

And your reasoning is not very well thought out. Does your kids or anyone else's kids protect themselves at school or do they have school resource officers there. Would your kids or anyone else's kids have the ability to protect themselves when they are not with a parent?

I do know how to protect myself, but you have to come to the realization that there are a lot of people out here in the real world that doesn't have the capabilites of protecting themselves, the young, the old and the physically challanged just to name a few. Besides, police are there as a deterrent to crime, not to assign a police officer to every individual. Now how does deterring crime work? It works like this, if you have ever been speeding down the road, do you slow down when you see a police car or do you keep your foot in the throttle? Or another example, would a shoplifter hit a store when he or she knew there was an off duty officer watching the front door? I agree, we have to protect ourselves until help arrives, but deterring crime is the main function, not protection of everyone at the same time.

As far as a police state, I think your're over rationalizing.

[Mannlicher]

Cops have a tough job.  It is not often, that a regular Joe runs up against a cop, and that encounter often determines their feelings about cops.
I don't particularly love them, but I don't hate them either.  Frankly, I would not want to do their job.

[wgr]

wile i agree that most  got into the field to help people . that idea goes out the window fast. first we dont arrest the higher ups  for leaving the bar drunk  they only drink wine[mayors  wife] so let her drive  next and most important   the old brother in blue  thing.  back up a fellow officer  no matter what  even if hes wrong(there goes the ideaof helping people ) now  someones rights have been stepted on and with 1/2/3  policeofficers  saying he was wrong  he doesnt stand a chance  and that happens  alot. i worked in a prison for ten years  and had  much more  problems out of staff  than inmates  simply  because  i would not let offers hurassess  people and go by the rules  I MEAN YOU AS A POLICE OFFICER HAS THE UPER HAND  DONT ABOUSE IT

[torque]

Without them it would still be like the wild, wild west, everybody would have to stand up for themselves.

Would you and your family be up to the challenge of taking on a bunch of thugs by yourself everywhere you went?

I'm sorry, but that is line of thought is why we have such a police state and everyone crying to the government "help me"!

Everyone has to stand up for themselves NOW.  We have to take on thugs everyday NOW. 

And your reasoning is not very well thought out. Does your kids or anyone else's kids protect themselves at school or do they have school resource officers there. Would your kids or anyone else's kids have the ability to protect themselves when they are not with a parent?

I do know how to protect myself, but you have to come to the realization that there are a lot of people out here in the real world that doesn't have the capabilites of protecting themselves, the young, the old and the physically challanged just to name a few. Besides, police are there as a deterrent to crime, not to assign a police officer to every individual. Now how does deterring crime work? It works like this, if you have ever been speeding down the road, do you slow down when you see a police car or do you keep your foot in the throttle? Or another example, would a shoplifter hit a store when he or she knew there was an off duty officer watching the front door? I agree, we have to protect ourselves until help arrives, but deterring crime is the main function, not protection of everyone at the same time.

As far as a police state, I think your're over rationalizing.

And how does this argument line up with what the discussion was before?  In the "Wild West" women and the younger children were expected to stand up for themselves if the men were away.  I also didn't realize that in the "Wild West" or now it is common place that children were in danger at schools.  And obviously cops do NOT deter crime.  Crime is and has been on the rise for a long, long time.  And the number of cops has been on the rise also, so where is the deterent?  Yes, I agree that women, the young, and the infirm would have a more difficult time defending themselves against crime.  That is why I talk about neighbors looking out for each other.  If a criminal knows that everyone in a neighborhood is going to try and kill him if he threatens its citizens, THAT is a deterent.  I guess the whole difference of opinion between us is summed up by your statement, "I agree, we have to protect ourselves until help arrives".  I think we should protect ourselves, period.  that means women, children, and the elderly.  Waiting and wishing that help would arrive has gotten a lot of people, who could have helped themselves, killed. 

Also, evidence of a police state.  I live in AR, it may be different in other states. 
1.  The police can stop you and question you at any time for no reason.   
2.  They can hand cuff you and place you in their car during that stop for "your protection" with no proof of wrong doing.
3.  They can search your car if you deny them the right by saying that it is "supicious".
4.  They can lie to you to try and get a confession legally, but if you lie to them it is unlawful.
5.  They can strip your vehicle of all its contents on the side of the road, including the seats, and if they find nothing they drive away. Thus leaving you to clean up their mess. 
6.  You must surrender information about yourself to a police officer any time they ask it, whether or not a crime has been committed.  "Ver are your papers?"
7.  You must register with the government to carry a weapon concealed.  I don't remember seeing that in the Constitution.

[Almtnman]

I think we should protect ourselves, period.  that means women, children, and the elderly.  Waiting and wishing that help would arrive has gotten a lot of people, who could have helped themselves, killed. 

Also, evidence of a police state.  I live in AR, it may be different in other states. 
1.  The police can stop you and question you at any time for no reason.   
2.  They can hand cuff you and place you in their car during that stop for "your protection" with no proof of wrong doing.
3.  They can search your car if you deny them the right by saying that it is "supicious".
4.  They can lie to you to try and get a confession legally, but if you lie to them it is unlawful.
5.  They can strip your vehicle of all its contents on the side of the road, including the seats, and if they find nothing they drive away. Thus leaving you to clean up their mess. 
6.  You must surrender information about yourself to a police officer any time they ask it, whether or not a crime has been committed.  "Ver are your papers?"
7.  You must register with the government to carry a weapon concealed.  I don't remember seeing that in the Constitution.

So what you're telling us now is that you're gonna strap a sidearm on your kids to wear when you're not around to protect them or are you just trying to be argumentive?

I'm glad I don't live in Arkansas. We don't have to put up with crap like that in my state!

[torque]

I think we should protect ourselves, period.  that means women, children, and the elderly.  Waiting and wishing that help would arrive has gotten a lot of people, who could have helped themselves, killed. 

Also, evidence of a police state.  I live in AR, it may be different in other states. 
1.  The police can stop you and question you at any time for no reason.   
2.  They can hand cuff you and place you in their car during that stop for "your protection" with no proof of wrong doing.
3.  They can search your car if you deny them the right by saying that it is "supicious".
4.  They can lie to you to try and get a confession legally, but if you lie to them it is unlawful.
5.  They can strip your vehicle of all its contents on the side of the road, including the seats, and if they find nothing they drive away. Thus leaving you to clean up their mess. 
6.  You must surrender information about yourself to a police officer any time they ask it, whether or not a crime has been committed.  "Ver are your papers?"
7.  You must register with the government to carry a weapon concealed.  I don't remember seeing that in the Constitution.

So what you're telling us now is that you're gonna strap a sidearm on your kids to wear when you're not around to protect them or are you just trying to be argumentive?

I'm glad I don't live in Arkansas. We don't have to put up with crap like that in my state!

No, what I am saying is that because a security force is necessary in certain situations does not mean that without police it would be the wild wild west.  I am 100% sure that citizen voluteers would be just as effective, but because of the thought process that many have the only people qualified to defend us are police officers.

[Almtnman]

No, what I am saying is that because a security force is necessary in certain situations does not mean that without police it would be the wild wild west.  I am 100% sure that citizen voluteers would be just as effective, but because of the thought process that many have the only people qualified to defend us are police officers.

I think we went through that phase of what you call citizen volunteers, they used to be called vigilantes. I'm not so sure that I would want untrained vigilantes or citizen volunteers as you call them out there trying to do police work. That thought process you mention is way off base as police officers everywhere I know of has to be trained and qualified and then certified to hold the position, at least they do in my state. Then they also have to qualify on the firing range at least once a year and if they don't make it, they are let go. I just don't belive citizen volunteers are up to the same standards. You keep bringing up the wild west scenario as if that's some sort of hangup with you and you seem to be stuck on it. Well, if we didn't have police officers out there doing their job, it would be worse than any wild west that we know of. There's enough drug dealers out there now to keep the police busy and without them it would be worse than it is now.

BTW, my thought process comes from obtaining a degree in Criminal Justice, where does yours come from?

[superhornet]

TM7---Uncovering the Truth? Justice ??  Courts are not about truth or justice, they are about who has the best lawyer..Each of us at one time or another has probably had a bad experience with police officers or court systems......but, the system and police in this country are a heck of a lot better than when I was in Yugoslavia..

[torque]

No, what I am saying is that because a security force is necessary in certain situations does not mean that without police it would be the wild wild west.  I am 100% sure that citizen voluteers would be just as effective, but because of the thought process that many have the only people qualified to defend us are police officers.

I think we went through that phase of what you call citizen volunteers, they used to be called vigilantes. I'm not so sure that I would want untrained vigilantes or citizen volunteers as you call them out there trying to do police work. That thought process you mention is way off base as police officers everywhere I know of has to be trained and qualified and then certified to hold the position, at least they do in my state. Then they also have to qualify on the firing range at least once a year and if they don't make it, they are let go. I just don't belive citizen volunteers are up to the same standards. You keep bringing up the wild west scenario as if that's some sort of hangup with you and you seem to be stuck on it. Well, if we didn't have police officers out there doing their job, it would be worse than any wild west that we know of. There's enough drug dealers out there now to keep the police busy and without them it would be worse than it is now.

BTW, my thought process comes from obtaining a degree in Criminal Justice, where does yours come from?

I have a BS in Biology if you are wondering about my education. Although I am not sure where it applies.  I had doctors teaching most of my classes who were complete dolts (not saying you are) I don't see that education always has bearing.  Is yours a BS or an Associates? (just curious)  Saying things like that on the internet is pretty pointless.  I could tell you I was a rocket scientist.

So, according to you, if there were no police that the criminals would rule.  Right?  Before the organization of police departments was this true?  No.  When private citizens took care of problems themselves was the anarchy you imply the rule?  No.  Are there exceptions to the rule? I'm sure, but it is not the general happening.  I just don't see where a totally reactionary agency makes any difference in a criminals mind.

[Almtnman]

I have a BS in Biology if you are wondering about my education.

[torque]

I have a BS in Biology if you are wondering about my education.

You know you have won an argument, when your opponent resorts to insults.