Author Topic: Disappointing Ballistics? (Read 2592 times)

GypsmJim · « **on:** November 22, 2006, 01:56:52 PM »

I've been a handgun hunter for many years. Always used my Blackhawk .41 magnum with good success. This year I switched to a TC Encore with 15" bbl in .308 just for the simple reason that I felt my .41 lacked the range and I have passed up so many nice deer that were 100 yards away.

I loaded a good round with the new Hornady SST bullets (red tip) based largely on their advertisements. After reasonable practice I was confident in my accuracy.

As luck would have it my opening day buck turned up at only 35 yards. One neck shot straight on and he dropped in place, but was still quite alive. I moved in to about 10 yards for a finishing side neck shot. To my amazement he was still alive. A third neck shot was needed.

Now, before I used a handgun we used shotguns because that was all that was allowed. I can tell you for certain that a 12 guage would have finsihed the job with that first shot.

When I turned him over, I found that both neck shots froim the side went clean through. Did these bullets not perform as intended? Any comments and suggestions?

jpsmith1 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 22, 2006, 02:26:42 PM »

How much time passed between shots #1 and #3? You say the deer was alive. Alive as in still breathing or alive as in trying to get up and run away?

I'd bet that the .308 had already taken care of the job, the deer just hadn't realized it yet.

The best line about bullet performance that I've ever heard:

At what point in the death of the animal did the bullet fail?

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 22, 2006, 04:40:42 PM »

I would guess that it was probably the wrong bullet design for that short barrel. The 15" barrel sacrifices quite a bit in velocity and may have been on the edge or outside of its required velocity for optimum performance. I generally use bullets in the 125-130 gr range in the encore or one of the RN or FPs designed for cartridges like the 30-30 if I go heavier. Or one of the SSP (single shot pistol) bullets available. I am not that familiar with the SSTs but I believe they are designed for fairly high velocity commonly found in some of the magnum cartridges.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #3 on:** November 23, 2006, 01:07:37 AM »

i share 'dakota's' opinion re: you having chosen the wrong bullet for that short barrel.

it happens!

take care,

ss'

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 23, 2006, 02:27:53 AM »

I hate to say it but I will, I hate a neck shot. Sure you can put a deer down with a neck shot when the CNS is hit, but it is not going to kill the animal outright. In essence you paralyzed the deer and would eventually die. I am not an advocate of neck shooting any animal.

Try the same bullet and hit the heart lung area and see what your performance would be. I bet you would have different results.

jpsmith1 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 23, 2006, 02:37:52 AM »

I'd agree with Redhawk1. The neck is pretty scarce on vital organs. However, I've tried arguing this point with many people in the past and have had no success. Advocates of neck shots are rabid and generally unchangeable. They get a spine hit every now and again and claim "they drop in their tracks, everytime!"

Shoot them where they are biggest and keep shooting until they stop moving.

Catfish · « **Reply #6 on:** November 23, 2006, 04:21:41 AM »

Put me down as another never take a neck shot. The only way a neck shot will kill is if you break the spine and that`s a small line at the top of the neck. I alway go for the lungs, they may run, but a good double ling shot will always put them down to stay, and I`ve never seen one that didn`t leave a good blood trail if it did make it out of sight.

jerkface11 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 23, 2006, 04:24:27 AM »

You probably need to switch to a single shot pistol bullet. As for shooting them in the neck why do it? There's lots of meat in the neck. Go for a heart lung shot and you won't waste much meat at all.

simplicity · « **Reply #8 on:** November 23, 2006, 08:02:30 AM »

If you want a good bullet that you can drive to know tomorrow and still doesn't penetrate all the way through try the ballistic tips, I've shot two deer with a 338 win mag shooting a 180 gr. ballistic tip at 3200fps 1st deer was shot at 300 yards and the bullet penetrated 14 inches, the second was shot two days ago with a broadside shot at 100 yards on the lungs the bullet didn't exit. Basically what i'm saying is if you want a bullet to stop within a neck granted i don't recomend neck shots unless it's the only thing showing. You need to have a bullet that comes apart. Bonded bullets are great and all but for deer you don't need a high tech bullet for them unless your using a really small caliber.

swampthing · « **Reply #9 on:** November 24, 2006, 11:45:52 AM »

Velocity loss in a 308win 15" handgun is not that much to lower you below the velocity threshhold for that bullet, Hornady states that that bullet will expand down to 1700 fps! My thought is that the bullet did not have enough room to expand and do more damage before it exited. At 35 yds it is still practically going muzzle velocity, minus 100fps or so. If you like the accuracy, and gun, test the bullet to see what it does. A 25" stack of soaking wet newspaper sideways will tell you quite a bit. Let it soak for 2 days then stand it so its pages face you, blast it at 100 yds, what ever damage you see will be approximately half of what you will see in a live animal.

GypsmJim · « **Reply #10 on:** November 26, 2006, 02:26:26 PM »

Just to clarify, my first shot was taken when the deer was looking straight at me, so I didn't have much of a cross section to aim at. I have always used a high neck shot as a killing round if need be (high, maybe 6 - 12" down from his ear) just because I felt that there would be less meat loss and it was a fast and humane way to go.

The time between the first and 3rd shots was less than a minute. He was not going any where but he was still breathing and that's what disturbed me. As I said, given a 12 guage under the same circumstances I'm quite confident I wouldn't have needed the second shot, much less the 3rd.

I learned a lot from the responses. Guess I'll experiment with other bullet types. Thanks to all...

jpsmith1 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 26, 2006, 02:50:39 PM »

Actually had a similar experience with my last deer. I shot it at a similar angle to the one that you describe. I aimed lower in the chest, looking for heart/lung damage. Deer dropped immediately to the shot and never got up again. It slid down the hill and never moved again.

The deer was still breathing but did not last more than a minute or so.

TrenchMud · « **Reply #12 on:** November 27, 2006, 09:01:04 AM »

As I get older, I find that tracking a deer is something I do not much care to do.
I almost always aim for the Neck just a little bit below the jaw. Breaks the neck and puts them right down. I hunt in real close cover though and a 75 yard shot is a long one. Another reason I aim for such a target on a deer, is that if I do miss, it is a clean miss and not a wound. Now I don't have any
15 inch long barreled handguns But I would bet a nickel that the velocity from something
like that would not be much short of a rifle. Try loading some lighter constructed bullets
like maybe a 130 grain Nosler Ballistic tip. It should expand quite well.

Camel 23 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 29, 2006, 12:02:00 PM »

Yes a 12 guage slug at 450 grains and moving at 1500+ fps will kill animals quickly. I doubt anything you load in a .308 Encore will do the job as well or as quickly. But you do gain accuracy and extended range with the Encore.

jamie · « **Reply #14 on:** December 01, 2006, 02:04:12 PM »

Within the time frame you are talking about it is very rare for a deer to be completely dead from any type of gun. They just don't die that quick. They may be "dead" but it usually takes a few minutes for all of their parts to realize this. Of all the deer I have seen shot or have shot I just never saw one dead-dead within one miute, no matter if it was shot from a .243, .375 H&H, or a slug gun.

darrell8937 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 01, 2006, 06:07:40 PM »

I too am no fan of neck shots. I perfer heart lung shots. The deer I got this year was shot in the neck five minuites before I shot her. I heard the shot close by and soon after she came running thru the woods parrall to me. She stoped in a dense patch whehe I could not get a clean shot. She was looking around and did not look wounded. After a couple minuites she started walking and came into view. I shot and she went down. I went up to her and saw that she was shot in the neck. It probaly would have killed her but not quickly thats for sure. The shot was dead center of the neck. From a 308. Some people do neck shots religously.

Graybeard · « **Reply #16 on:** December 01, 2006, 06:08:12 PM »

Quote

Another reason I aim for such a target on a deer, is that if I do miss, it is a clean miss and not a wound

AArgh, I get so tired of hearing this tired old false argument. It is JUST NOT SO. There is plenty of room for error between a drop on impact dead deer and a wounded one you never even bother to follow up because of your FALSE ASSUMPTION it had to be a CLEAN MISS since it didn't topple at the shot.

You can shoot low and take out the wind pipe quite easily or a bit too far forward and take out the jaw. In both cases the deer will run off pretty much as if missed and leave little to no blood unless you're able to follow it's progress for a good ways just on sight of it's path. But rest assured any such deer shot in that manner is a dead one and it will die a very long and painful leagering death.

There ain't no such thing as a clean miss or dead on the spot shot folks, it just don't exist.

blhof · « **Reply #17 on:** January 06, 2007, 02:07:48 PM »

I beg to differ on a dead on the spot hit. I too had never seen a drop dead shot until this year when I got of my truck and started to the stand and a 4x3 stepped in front of me; I didn't even have my shotgun loaded. As smoothly and quietly as I could while hyperventilating, I dropped in a slug and shot(12 Ga) at less than 10yds..he rolled over 2 times and twitched maybe once. The shortest hunting day of my life and I've been hunting over 40 years.

slave · « **Reply #18 on:** January 06, 2007, 04:08:42 PM »

I have shot many deer with everything from Slugs to Broadheads. Made the same hit with the same combination and got results from droped in tracks to 200yd sprints. Was a deer that droped in its tracks dead the instant it was struck? I soht a deer at about 10yds with a 460. It ran 75yds rolled down a hilll for another 20yds. When I got to the buck and rolled it over I found 1/4 of its stomach was sticking out of the entranch wound side of the buck. Puzzeled I investigated. It was struck with such force its brisket split and diaphragm busted. The sharp edges of the ribs slit a long hole through the hide and must have seperated enough to allow the stomach to slip out through the hide. Know CNS damage so life and mobility lasted till it blead to death. Deer have been killed by a shot to the neck but it is not a high value target area.

jhalcott · « **Reply #19 on:** January 07, 2007, 03:56:32 PM »

blhof, I think GB means each and every time, not the occassional drop at the shot! My brother WAS a neck shooter till he hit one that ran 2-300 yards.The next guy shot it thru the ribs and it fell within a couple yards. The guy showed the deer to my brother and pointed out the hole thru the neck. I've shot enough deer and other critters to know I can NOT predict the animals reaction any better than predicting the weather. Each animal is different

MSwickard · « **Reply #20 on:** January 09, 2007, 06:09:42 AM »

Your Encore 308 should have no problem with deer. It comes down to shot placement. If you only had " Just to clarify, my first shot was taken when the deer was looking straight at me, so I didn't have much of a cross section to aim at", to me your better shot would have been to center punch him in the chest. The Hornady SST bullet (you never mentioned what grain weight) should be adequent.

Bottomline, the neck shot is a bad %shot. Use the right bullet and take the high % shots. Personally, I would use a Nosler Partitian 165 or 180 gr in your 308. I like big heavy bullets...a couple hundred fps is not going to matter, dead is dead. When I had my 309JDJ barrel, I used 180 Parts and they worked great on elk. A 30 yad shot would go thru both shoulders of an elk and I would usually find the bullet under the skin back on the haunch. The 180 is probably overkill on a deer, but the 165 should be the meal ticket and allow for a higher % of angled shots in the boiler room. Also, the meat damage should be at a min.

LEO · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2007, 06:24:18 AM »

Obviously, I wasn't there so I don't know the exact circumstances, but it sounds to me like the first shot killed the deer, in that it was just breathing, not struggling to get up. The other two rounds were just because you felt the need to be sure. It sounds as if the bullet didn't expand very much, well if I understand the bullet you were using was designed to hold together so that would be expected. I have shot several deer in the neck, for management purposes (biological studies and such) and I shoot them at the head neck junction, now keep in mind these shots are not under hunting conditions so there is not a pressure factor. If this deer doesn't give the shot we are looking for on down the road one will When hunting I try to shoot them in the chest as this area has more "big" vital organs. Because although I have killed many deer, I still get a bit of an adrenalene rush when hunting, especially if it is a good buck. The whole point of this is that although the deer drops at the shot and never attempts to regain its feet it sometimes takes a little while for them to actually die.

poncaguy · « **Reply #22 on:** January 09, 2007, 10:31:13 AM »

Deer I have shot with 139 Hornandy Light Magnums in my 7-08 15" Encore through the lungs have dropped in their tracks..................

SDS-GEN · « **Reply #23 on:** January 09, 2007, 03:19:08 PM »

I used a 300mag with a 165 gr Hornady interbond to kill a black bear this fall, it was quartering toward me and I was on a rock above it. The bullet hit it in the neck in front of the near shoulder and exited behind the off shoulder. The bear dropped like it was hit by Thor's hammer. Ten seconds later it started to come around and tried to get up, the bullet worked perfect and the bear was as good as dead, it just wasn't an instant kill. The hornady poly-tip bullets are designed to expand over a wide range of velocities.

I'm with several other people here, neck shots are a no-no. I've taken a couple, but only if I'm driving the bullet through the neck and into the body of the animal, as in the case of the bear.

sawfish · « **Reply #24 on:** January 10, 2007, 08:44:05 AM »

If you are primarily hunting deer, go down to Wal-Mart and pick up some .308 Win. WW Power Point ammo in 150 gr.. I have killed 8 deer with my .308 Savage Striker using this ammunition, and have had no failures to expand. It is not uncommon when an otherwise excellent rifle bullet fails to perform in a handgun due to the lower velocity levels. It does not mean the bullet is bad, just that the application may be wrong.

IMHO, many of the "low-tech" bullets like the WW Power Point, Remington Core-Lokt, Barnes Original, etc. actually perform better in at handgun velocities, than the latest ballistic marvels.
It is quite possible that you may have gotten better expansion/more damage at a higher velocity level, but the advice about avoiding the neck shot should be seriously considered.

Many of the things you have learned about hunting with a rifle have to be reconsidered and/or relearned when using a rifle cartridge in a handgun. At least that is the way it was for me.

lovedogs · « **Reply #25 on:** January 14, 2007, 10:33:28 AM »

Personally, I think I'd try another bullet. In my experience the Single-Shot Pistol type bullets put out by Hornady and Sierra work better than the one you used. I also like the Nosler 150 gr. BT, but not for a neck shot unless I was POSITIVE I could hit the neck bone. That Nosler and the Hornady 130 gr. SSP are my favorite .30 cal. pistol bullets.

The controversy over neck shots is ageless. If done right with the right bullet it works great. But there is a big chance for things not working out right. If you hit the spine (neck bone) solidly there's no doubt; it'll kill instantly. Likewise, if you get enough meat with an explosive bullet it'll usually have those same results. But miss the spine with too tough of a bullet and the results can, as stated, not be good. Both neck and head shots should be taken with a huge amount of caution, and then only if you're real sure you can do it right. You must know your own limitations and do your best to take the shot only if you can kill the animal as humanely as possible. We owe that much to the animal and to the reputation of our hunting endeavors.

sqeeter91 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 17, 2007, 02:24:24 PM »

First of all, I agree with Redhawk and the other guys about the neck shots. They are just to risky to be called a clean/humane shot.If you're going to be a shooter-It's one shot,one kill. Lungs are a guarenteed downed animal. I've been pistol hunting with a savage Striker for about 10 yrs. Give Barnes bullets a try. I shoot them in both my 243 striker as well as my 110FP tactical 30-06. Weight retention averages about 99% with excellent expansion. I was having trouble with Hornady's blowing apart on me ,and not leaving an exit wound. I haven't lost an animal since switching to the Barnes XTP Bullets.

jro45 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 20, 2007, 03:58:21 AM »

I shot a deer into her heart 3" above her shoulder on an angle came out just before her gut. She was dead on the spot with a mouth full of grass never swallowed.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #28 on:** January 20, 2007, 04:44:59 AM »

I'll take exception to the suggestion to use ballistic tip bullets. The only BT bullet wound I've ever seen showed a LOT of damage to meat beyond the immediate area of the entrance hole. For my money they destroy too much meat. YMMV

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #29 on:** January 20, 2007, 06:16:43 AM »

That bullet was just moving to fast to expand, At 75 to 100 yards the results would have been diffrent. I would like to stop a deer imediatly myself but it just don't always work out that way, I shot a good size buck with a .45-70 broad side just missed the heart but turned both lungs into mush, He ran over two or three hundred yards and was still standing when I got there. I was gonna finish him with a pistol but he layed down and was gone when I got to him. Bullets fault? Nope. Bad shot? nope, just one tough critter that just don't give up. I love deer for more than just food, Wonderfull creatures they are.