Author Topic: Iraq KIA  (Read 4438 times)

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Offline Echo4Lima

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Iraq KIA
« on: November 24, 2006, 06:14:16 PM »
A young Marine down the street from me was buried Wednesday.  He was KIA the weekend before last in a Humvee by an IED.

This isnt about debating the what, where, who, why, of the war. Today I want to put this out:

My imediate reaction on the news was "They're killing these Kids and WE wont do anything about it"!!!! Then I broke into tears.

The mother of this young Marines friend is a Marine mom.  Her words to me were, " WE are watching very carefully how things are gonna go now with these people in Washington.  WE are afraid its gonna be another Vietnam or Korea".  Her "WE" means the families of deployed Marines et al.  Her concern is that this country is once again going to accept a draw or defeat.

No matter what your opinion of how the war, are YOU willing to accept either?  Why is it okay to allow the military personal of this nation to not finish the job?  As far as I can tell, it seems NOBODY asks THIER opinion in the national media.  Or sure, the occasional anti will be trod out, but how about the majority of them?

No real military person wants war, because they have to fight it.  But, at the same time, no true warrior wants to leave the job unfinished.  Because he/she KNOWS they have to fight that enemy again, its only a matter of time.

Heres a thought for you:  Its the Super Bowl, you team has practiced and trained for 3 years to get there.  Its the 4th quarter, the score is 21 to your 20, 4th down, 2 seconds left on the clock,the ball's on the 23 yard line, your team has the best field goal kicker in the NFL, the field goal will give you the win,  the team lines up, ball is snapped to the holder.  But instead of setting the ball up for the kicker, on the coaches instruction, the holder stands up then kneels to down the ball and the the game is over. Your coach says, "We'll win the next one.....

The North Koreans and the North Vietnamese had NO intention of following us out of thier country after those wars.  The Islamists DO..........



Offline jh45gun

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2006, 06:35:04 PM »
Yea we have to finish what we started hard to do when the enemy does not wear a uniform. Still I think we are making progress though it may be too slow for some. If they keep killing each other off it may be worth while to stand back and let them go at it.
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Online Graybeard

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2006, 06:39:45 PM »
In this specific case what does "finishing the job" consist of? What specific set of events has to occur before you will consider it finished satisfactorily?

I supported it going in but think we've already stayed too long and just don't see a set of events that will satisfactoriy resolve it or end it or "finish the job". I wish I could see that end but in all honesty I don't.

Saddam is out of power. All who were in power at the time are now out of power and for the most part captured or killed. The various muslim sects still hate each other about as much as they hate us. They will NEVER EVER as long as they live agree with each other and be able to live peacefully and share power with other sects. Hell each tribe even within a sect hates the rest of their own sect not of their tribe. They are an ignorant backward people who can agree on only one thing and that is that they hate us maybe a wee bit more than they hate each other. But once we're gone no matter what we do while there they will go back to killing each other as soon as we pull out. Matters not if we pull out tomorrow or in 100 years the outcome will be the same.

Anyone care to offer their opinions on it?


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Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2006, 02:48:58 AM »
I suggest that the Versailles treaty of 1919 which drew lines and created countries out of Mesopotamia might have a lot to do with the current state of unrest in Iraq.  The treaty didn't pay attention to historical tribal boundries and a similar situation occured in the former Yugoslavia when Tito's government fell.

Saddam Hussein, like Tito, held an iron grip over the region.  When that grip was released, those groups affected seek to undo those said lines.

It's a civil war.

I'm starting to think the best thing we could do would be to redraw old boundries and create several soverign countries out of Mesopotamia.  I'm no historian, nor politician, but do think that's what the civil unrest is about and seperate but equal might be the best thing.

Anyone else thinking the same way?

Here's and interesting read on the history and creation of Iraq.  Not sure about the accuracy but it does make me think.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9291.htm
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Offline chuckles

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2006, 03:19:34 AM »
GB wrote:
Quote
I supported it going in but think we've already stayed too long and just don't see a set of events that will satisfactoriy resolve it or end it or "finish the job". I wish I could see that end but in all honesty I don't.
I concur. At this point I feel like we were mislead about why we went in the first place. I think we were lied to and I don't like it at all. I went to Vietnam and found out years later that we were lied to about that one also. 58,000+ Americans dead and for what? I'm feeling the same about this one. The politicians send us "over there" and why? WWI and WWII were easy to understand. It was literally us or them. Iraq? At this point we should put Saddam back in charge, ask him to promise to behave and get out. He kept the thumb on these idiots foe a long time. It's a civil war now, just like Vietnam. Lets leave before another 58,000 of our best and brightest are lost. Even Vietnam had 2900 KIA at one point. It's knowing when to pull the plug.

Offline powderman

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2006, 04:17:34 PM »
I don't know the answer. We are not dealing with rational human beings here. They are a Godless cult that teaches their children to hate and murder practicaly from birth. By the time these kids get to be 10 or 11 years old they have been so fully indoctrinated in hatred and death that they will never be able to function in any kind of a civilized society. The women will breed more just like them, and the men will do their utmost to murder every non muslim he can. They are now murdering and butchering their own kind, over 3,000 just this past month. They put their faith in a disciple of satan named mohamed. He was a warlord, a murderer, rapist, child molester, butcher of hundreds of thousands of Christians, probably well over a million. THAT, is their hero. They see God through mohameds eyes, not Gods. They will not rest as long as WE live. They cannot be trusted, cannot make a treaty. In olden times they seem to be like some of Israels old enemies that God ordered Israel to utterly destroy.
My wife and I send boxes of goodies to our soldiers every month. The stories they tell differ greatly from what the media allows us to see or read about. They believe in the work they are doing  and don't understand all of the bad press from the left wingers. They don't understand why the real story is suppressed by the news media, I don't either. When we went in to fallujah it was a terrorist hotbed. The people there mostly supported the terrorists, so in my opinion, there were no innocents there. In my opinion we should have bombed and shelled til there was not even one standing wall in the entire city. Then sent in the troops and shot all survivors, all of them. Except for the very young, there were no innocents there. No, I don't know the answer, but if we don't fight them there, we most assuredly will suffer over here. POWDERMAN.
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Offline jh45gun

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2006, 04:25:36 PM »
Good Post Powderman!
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Online Graybeard

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2006, 05:48:19 PM »
Quote
No, I don't know the answer, but if we don't fight them there, we most assuredly will suffer over here. POWDERMAN
.

While I certainly do agree with that sentiment the problem with it as I see it is that we're NOT fighting them there. They are fighting and killing us but we're just kinda sitting back and letting them do it, we're no longer taking the fight to them. Unless we're going to then we need to get out.

I also agree that until they are all gone they will continue to try to see that we're all gone.


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Offline jimster

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2006, 06:45:22 PM »
I agree on getting it done, or get out. I don't know of any wars that were won without total devastation of everyone.
If we can't do that because people don't have the stomach for it, then we are wasting time and American lives.
As far as people gaining freedom over there, that's something they need to fight for themselves also, we can't give that to them, they need to want it bad enough to die for it themselves, or as soon as we pull out, they won't be able to keep it anyway. I'm not all that sure how many of them really want freedom at all, or really grasp it, or even understand what it all means. I also don't understand why the people are not allowed to have guns to fight with, I'm talking about the people who WANT to change and be free to have some say....how can any group of people even be able to fight without being allowed to have guns? We ought to be putting guns in all the people hands that voted there at least.
That's another flaw in this whole mixed up deal as far as I'm concerned.


Offline dodgecity

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2006, 07:17:54 PM »
I was 5th generation military, and served during the Viet Nam war. Our family military traditon ended with me. I would not allow my son to enter the service, nor, will my precious grand children serve in the military. Despite the History Channel, this country has not won a war since 1946. In every case since then,  the military has been betrayed by the congress, the media, and the academia. I sincerely regret the death of every soldier and marine in Iraq, but, the American citizens (not the greatest generation) have determined that Jack "abscam" Murtha and Nancy Pelosi shall determine what the lives of these patriots will mean.   

Online Graybeard

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2006, 03:16:53 AM »
Them is ALL muslims world wide. They are everywhere. But what most refuse to accept is that it's either them or us. They are determined to kill every single nonmuslim on the face of the earth and unless we kill them first they will eventually do just that.


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Offline powderman

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2006, 03:47:47 AM »
Them is ALL muslims world wide. They are everywhere. But what most refuse to accept is that it's either them or us. They are determined to kill every single nonmuslim on the face of the earth and unless we kill them first they will eventually do just that.

Agreed Sir. Even the so called peaceful muslims study from the same book as the rest, the koran, or as I see it, the devils handbook. People forget that some of them that flew those planes on 9-11-01 had lived here for years and their neighbors suspected nothing. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline 30-30man

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2006, 04:49:39 AM »
They will always fight.  Everyone of Arab descent has Ishmael as an ancestor. His offspring was fortold to be warlike and always fighting by God.  They settled around the pennisula of Saudi Arabia.  This is the Middle East.  They will always fight as long as they have breath in their lungs, they always have.  The only way we could leave the Middle East alone is come up with an alternative energy source.  The oil is the only reason we really care.  I say expand bio fuels and get out of the Middle East all together.  Brazil did it.  We can too.

Online Graybeard

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2006, 12:55:38 PM »
Them is ALL muslims world wide. They are everywhere. But what most refuse to accept is that it's either them or us. They are determined to kill every single nonmuslim on the face of the earth and unless we kill them first they will eventually do just that.
.
Yeooow!,,,,,so this would break down into a total war of a genocidal nature, not that the world hasn't seen that before thruout the ages; but I'm not convinced, yet, that the flames of extremist Islam couldn't be extinguished the same way they were stoked. Not the least help would be a comprehensive national energy program complete with basic resrch to get us off the 'oil addiction' [as Bush calls it], but I guess we will not see that.

.........TM7

In case you hadn't noticed it that war has already begun, they started it and have full intentions of finishing it. It's the rest of us that haven't yet gotten onboard with it.


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Offline 30-30man

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2006, 03:10:39 PM »
They want to get reelected thats the whole problem.  You cut off the cheap labor from Mexico and prices go up on everything.  Pass fuel restrictions on auto manufactures and the oil industry and the prices of autos go up along with fuel.  When people are hurt in their pockets, they tend to vote for the other guy.  We saw this in the past election..  I think most Americans agree to finding alternative fuel sources  but we as a group are not prepared to pay high prices like they do in Europe and everywhere else.  For example, in Germany it is against the law to warm up your car.  There reasoning is it wastes fuel.  They can and do write tickets for it. Gas is sold by the liter and last summer it averaged about $7.65 a gallon.  It was a big deal just to rent a car and travel 20 miles down the road.  Many of my wife's relatives had never been that far from home before.  Gas is so expensive in Europe most Europeans don't use it.  I don't know if we are prepared to make those kind of sacrifices to get out of the Middle East.

Offline hardertr

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2006, 03:24:45 PM »

The mother of this young Marines friend is a Marine mom.  Her words to me were, " WE are watching very carefully how things are gonna go now with these people in Washington.  WE are afraid its gonna be another Vietnam or Korea".  Her "WE" means the families of deployed Marines et al.  Her concern is that this country is once again going to accept a draw or defeat.

No matter what your opinion of how the war, are YOU willing to accept either?  Why is it okay to allow the military personal of this nation to not finish the job?  As far as I can tell, it seems NOBODY asks THIER opinion in the national media.  Or sure, the occasional anti will be trod out, but how about the majority of them?


I am headed over in June, and a rapid withdrawal is one of my biggest fears.  It would make sense that they let us get all of our troops out WITHOUT INCIDENT, but then again.....why not slap old Uncle Sam in the face one last time as we are walking out the door?  My fear is that those of us that are last in (and therefore last out) will be waiting for those last planes with minimal security.  Once we begin a withdrawal, it would take an act of God to convince those that wanted us "back home" to re-enter.

I don't think we can "win" this conflict, mainly because we didn't go in with a goal in the first place.  World peace and cheap gas is never going to come around, and as I understand it, that's what GW used as his motive to invade.  Like VictorCharlie said, the only way we have a chance here is to redraw the lines.  It worked in Kosovo/Former Yugoslavia.  If the tribes want to act like delinquents that just can't get along, let's draw lines and smack the hell out of any of THEM that cause trouble outside of their boundaries.  It worked in Kosovo, it worked on my brothers and I...surely it will work in the Middle East   ::)
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Offline Echo4Lima

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2006, 03:37:24 PM »
Many good points here. Lets touch on a few;

Alternative fuels are years away.  At this point in time, OIL is it.  Alternatives are only cliche' slogans, not an immediate answer.  There is a LOT of oil right here in our own back yard!  Enviro's wont let us go for it.  That is the 1st step, use our own and stop the $$ going to these people. Then we can work for alternatives.  Like the illegal problem, close the borders 1st, then work on the ones here.

Winning in Iraq?  We need to stay until they can function on thier own.  That should be seen as victory.  About the whys we went in there, like 'Nam, they were the right reasons.  Mistakes were made, especially it seems nobody considered a long term occupation.  Enough troops for the initial invasion to be successfull, but not enough to occupy. In 'Nam we wound up in a war of attrition.  Seems like that again sometimes in this one.

Can we beat the Islamisists?  YES!! The U S already has experience defeating an enemy that thinks like these Islamists do. That enemy valued death above all in service to thier country.  They demonstrated suicide tacticts that were as bold as these now. No fear to die and take as many as possible.  Many of them, as in this Islamist war, were sent out specifically to die and kill with thier deaths.  We, America, beat the fight out of them first then won thier hearts and minds.  It was the Imperialist Japanese.  It can be done.  But it takes time and COMMITMENT.  Do we as Americans still have that in us? Or has the 1/2 hour sitcom, the 1 hour drama done us in?  The Islamists are in it for the duration.  They dont believe we have the stomach for it.  Are they right?  Its only a matter of time before we will know.

We unseated Saddam  but we ARE now fighting the militant Islamists. This IS now a front in the war on terror, we have drawn them into it.  It has to be fought to a win.  Many of the battles there are with non Iraqis. I'll bet the Shiites bombed thier own people the other day to incite them into a civil war.  This guy Sadr is a problem and supported by Iran. We quit after the cemetery battle early in the war instead of continuing on to finish him off then. Usual thing, not finishing the job!






 

Offline powderman

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2006, 04:29:19 PM »
Even after Hiroshima Japan refused to surrender, a few days later it was Nagasaki, that did it. Unless we are prepared to kill these Godless scum on a large scale, we cannot win. We spend too much time listening to the libbies and panty wetters. Every time the Godless ones have attacked Israel they have been beaten badly, not once, not twice, but EVERY SINGLE TIME. Common sense would tell a normal person that their allah just aint doing it for them. Not these people. Their entire life is dedicated to hatred and murder. They danced in the streets on 9-11-01, They rejoice in the suffering of innocents. I'm fed up with watching the world play footsie with these Godless scum, afraid somebody will offend them. I'd love to see Britain and America shut down their mosques and ship them out to a nation that believes as they do. They are as mad dogs, and their mosques are their lairs. They are working for the devil and don't even know it because they have been lied to for thousands of years. Their goal 2,000 years ago was the same as it is today, the total anhilation of every man, woman, and child that does not subscribe to their lunacy. I've lost 2 neices to these Godless scum, it really hurts to see them headed down the path to hell.  These were   Christian girls, til they got mixed up with the Godless ones. They have renounced Christ, turned against their family, and turned to the devils ways. I still love them, but want nothing to do with them anymore. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
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Offline nabob

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2006, 10:30:45 PM »
I've seen the statement many times on this board that Islam has always sought the total annihilation of everyone that does not convert. This is not historically accurate.

It would be more accurate to say that 1) Radical Islam today wants this but radical Islam is not the whole of Islam and 2) Islam functions most peacefully when it has the upper hand over all other religions.

Neither of these two situations are ones that I care to live under, so I still view Islam as a threat to us, but maybe it is time after five years of being at open war with the religion to start making the distinctions that exist and that we've ignored up to now.

There is no doubt that radical Islam wants us dead. There is also no doubt that radical Islam is a large part of the religion itself. So we will be fighting for quite some time into the future. In any war, though, it is important to know who the enemy is and who it is not. We don't want to waste time or lives fighting people we don't need to. Therefore, instead of viewing Islam monolithically, I think it is time to make some delineations about who we must fight, who we are likely to have to fight, and who we don't have to fight. This will cut the job down to more manageable size. Islam is comprised of many different sects and beliefs. Not all of them are as hostile to us as others. Making sure we don't have to fight people we are not required to is important because in any fighting, our people are going to be dying. I for one would like to make sure that they don't die needlessly. Viewing Islam as a whole as a threat means that many will die needlessly. In the same way Christianity is not monolithic, neither is Islam, if people take the opportunity to learn more about the religion.

The idea that historically, Islam has sought the total annihilation of anyone who disagreed with their creed is also not accurate. Spain existed under Muslim rule for nearly over 700 years. There were plenty of Christians in Spain during that time. There was no eradication campaign by Muslims. The Balkans were under Muslim rule for almost 500 years. Lots of Christians before the Muslims came, lots of Christians after. Armenia was under Muslim rule for nearly 1000 years. Armenians are still Christians. Muslims historically did not seek to annihilate Christians.

What they DID do, however, was to ensure that Islam had a favored place in society. Life as a Christian wasn't easy under Muslim rule. Of course, that went both ways. Life as a Muslim wasn't easy under Christian rule, either. Muslim rule over Christians meant a series of laws enforcing Christianity's second-class position in society. When Islam was in the driver's seat, it was at least a peaceful religion, though I for one have no desire to be ruled by even the most benevolent Muslim ruler.

Just injecting a note of historical accuracy into the debate. Book are out there on this subject. I recommend reading them in order to know the enemy better and to know just who the enemy is.

As an example about why it is important to know more fully one's enemy, take the example of the Muslim world being beaten by Israel. Some have said that the fact that Israel whipped them several times in the past should be a clue that Allah is not with them. True enough. However, their reaction to that is not what we would expect. They generally came to the conclusion that Allah is punishing them for their sinfulness by allowing their enemies to achieve victory. The reaction? The rise of the very type of conservative Islam that has degenerated into radicalism. Islam reacted by becoming more fundamentalist and less moderate in their outlook. Literal interpretations of the Koran replaced metaphoric translations. Jihad became an outer journey, not an inner struggle for one's own faith against one's own sinful nature. True, there were trends towards radical conservatism in places like Saudi Arabia long before the present time, beginning with the rise of the Saud family and their alliance with Wahhabism, but that was mainly localized. It took the defeats by Israel to cause a crisis of faith in Islam and that crisis of faith has resulted in a much more conservative Islam. That conservative Islam finds much in radical Islam that it can admire. So instead of causing people to lose faith, the defeats by Israel caused much of Islam to react by becoming more conservative and by doing so, they hope to make themselves more pleasing to Allah, who will favor them with victories over their enemies.

That's why the stalemate between Israel and Hizbollah in Lebanon was seen as a resounding victory by the Muslim world. A Muslim army stood up to Israel, did not run, went toe to toe and gave as good as it got. That was seen as a not only as  a victory by Hizbollah but a sign that Allah is rewarding Muslims for their newly-found conservative piety.

The point I'm making is that the way we think about things is not the way a Muslim thinks about things. We need to learn more about them in order to defeat them.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2006, 11:50:04 PM »
I don't think this war will change this culture.
I don't think we can occupy long enough for this culture to change.
If they were of a culture which had the same goals as we, then perhaps--they don't and we can't.
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Offline Echo4Lima

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2006, 07:02:17 PM »
Nabob, 

You have some good points. But the Koran does have a lot of about the forced conversion on non believers.

We must do battle with the people AND the problem.  Starting with the Madrases that put out this thought process.  The first step is to go after the funds.  Those  responsible for funding whether a State or private party.  The countries, NO MATTER WHICH ONES, that support or have supported in the past. Pakistan is directly responsible for the Taliban, and I believe, hiding UBL & Omar.  The Saudis and people in their country are funding a lot of the schools in Pakistan. The Wahhabi there are something too. It seems to me it has to be done and it has to not allow for any excuse to let anybody slide. Syria, Iran, etal.

You have to remember that the prevailing thought there is that negotiation is seen as weakness, any agreement met thru negotiation is seen as a victory. So Hezbollah, not being destroyed, is an example of that logic in that their survival is a victory even though it is actually not. And, like you said, Allahs will.

Prior to 1975 Lebanon was a predominatly Christian country. It may be Hezbollas country soon!!

Powderman, I always found it odd that so many people in the U S were always running off to Japan carrying on how WE should apologize to them for those bombs.  I think it is them that should apologize to us for making us drop not only one BUT TWO of then to make them quit!!

Just think, in 1991 we had 500,000 troops in Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia.


Offline nabob

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2006, 10:58:37 PM »
Well, Christianity has its own history of forced conversions. Neither religion's hands are totally clean on that score. However, these days, for both religions, forced conversions are the rare exception, not the norm.

In both cases, in the days when forced conversion was common, the two religions mostly focused on nonmonotheists. For the Christians, these were the native people of the Western Hemisphere. For Muslims, these were the various pagans/animists/etc. of the Middle East, North Africa and India. There are instances of both religions forcibly converting each other's members as well as Jews.

Kind of a mixed record for both, I'd say.

Offline powderman

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2006, 03:27:21 AM »
nabob. None of that is relevant. The muslims are still doing satans work as they have done since the introduction of islam by satan and his mohamed thousands of years ago. Christianity has changed, islam has not. The Godless ones won't change, they like killing too much. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline nabob

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2006, 04:06:29 AM »
Forced conversion by any religion does the work of Satan, powderman.

It is relevant to the extent that the issue of forced conversion was brought up. I didn't bring it up, someone else did. Maybe you should address your comments about relevance to him. Both Christianity and Islam have engaged in forced conversions. No one's hands are clean on this score. How we judge the totality of either religion is another matter.

Islam actually has changed quite often during its history. The Islam of the century right after Mohammad's death would view the Islam of the Abbasid dynasty as foreign. After Timuchin came through, Islam changed again. It is even now changing dramatically. Whether that is a good change or not is a separate question but it IS changing.

Islam, like Christianity, goes through periods of rapid change. This last period for Islam resembles the one right after Timuchin and that's not a good thing.


Offline WmRoy

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2006, 01:48:54 PM »
Quote
Islam functions most peacefully when it has the upper hand over all other religions.

No......... Islam is only peaceful when it is WEAK........ the bottom line is they are beginning to once again rear their ugly heads because they believe they are strong enough to challenge the rest of the world.  They see the rest of the world not so much as Godless but as WEAK.

If we are to have peace we will have to convince them that we are strong or convince them that they are weak......... otherwise expect more of what we are seeing....... much more....... :-[

Offline powderman

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2006, 04:31:22 PM »
nabob. I don't care if the Godless ones convert, and nobody is trying to make them that I'm aware of. They want to go to hell, I say we help them. Our military isn't trying to convert them, only trying to keep them away from us. Like I said, what happened hundreds of years ago is not relevant to today. The goal of islam is still, convert, or die. They are the only cult I know that will kill you to prove how peaceful they are. I'm sure the devil is dancing a jig right now. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline Echo4Lima

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2006, 04:37:28 PM »
Nabob,  How long has Christianity been around compared to Islam?  Compare the time with the violence to the 2 and you will see a far less amount of it attributed to Christianity.

A lot of Christian violence is misinformation.  A good example of that is the portrayal of the crusades.  Most of the time they are said to be the forcing of Christianity when in fact in should be seen as a counter attack.  The Christian were in Israel/Holy land long before Islam. The Inquisition stands by itself as a black eye on Christianity and the colonization of some places.  But the base concept of Islam is "Believe or die". If you get the time to make the choice.

The whole thing about Islam is that they see their god as "greater than yours".   Example of that is Iran.  If they are able to nuke Israel, then Allah is greater then the Jewish God. But if its the other way around, and they see the Jewish God "greater" then theirs, then one has to wonder if theyll lighten up a bit.

My understanding of the phrase "Allahu Akbar" isnt "God is great" but rather "God is greater".  Meaning THIER God is greater.

Most Muslims are not terrorists. But, most terrorists are Muslim.  If Islam is "a peaceful" religion, why is it they have a problem with Hindus and Sikhs in Kashmir, Jews in Israel, Catholics in the Philippines, Buddhists in Bali, Orthodox Christians in Chechnya, America, (basically a Christian country) etc. etc. etc.

Would the "elimination" of the Christians in Lebanon be genocide?

Offline nabob

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2006, 11:23:21 PM »
Well, now we are in comparative religion and whether one's history of violence can be explained away while the other one's cannot be. I don't think you really want to go there.

There was a fair amount of violence attributable to the variously defined Crusades. A lot of it happened in the Middle East, but the Albigensian Crusade was directed towards heretics in southern France. Other crusades were directed towards those who didn't pray correctly in Eastern Europe. Some Crusades just let it go at causing mayhem and spoilage in Europe and never actually got to smite anyone but other Christians.

Then we have the religious wars of Europe with Catholic fighting Protestant. Add that to the forced conversions and deaths associated with each Crusade and the carnage in the Western Hemisphere and I'd say you have a pretty difficult record with which to make many distinctions insofar as violence goes. The record of each is not good.

The Crusades were not a "counterattack". Read Urban II's speech at Clermont in 1095 which launched the First Crusade. The one written by Fulcher is the only version that was written at the time of the speech itself, not afterwards, so I think it could be considered fairly accurate. Part of the reason for sending the armies to the help of Emperor Comnenus was that these knights were making a hash of Europe with their incessant fighting amongst each other. The target was supposed to be assistance to Constantinople. Once there, though, they decided that instead of helping him against the Turks, they were going to free Jerusalem, which didn't help Comnenus at all and which Comnenus opposed. When they got to Jerusalem, accounts at the time said that the Crusaders rode through blood up to their horse's fetlocks. Everything was slaughtered - men, women, children. This is a "counterattack"? Killing noncombatants? Read the account by Raymond of St. Gilles and get a different perspective.

Or you could focus on the fact that Count Emich of Germany was leading an army towards Constantinople to support the First Crusade  and never even got past Mainz in Germany. Read the account by the Anonymous of Mainz to see the horrors he inflicted on the Jews there. The reasoning seemed to be, "hey, why go all the way to Constantinople to fight the infidel? Jews are just as good and they are right here!"

Or you could read the accounts of the Fourth Crusade and the sack of Constantinople by Crusaders who were  looking to be paid. The Hagia Sophia, which the Pope visited this week, was a slaughterhouse.

The Crusades, in short, were not monolithic. They were ugly and nasty wars. Trying to claim some sort of vindication by saying they were a "counterattack" won't work. If anything, that "attack" came about 300 years earlier. The Islamic rule imposed during that 300 years was a lot more easy to bear than any Christian rule imposed by the Crusade or in any Christian country afterwards. True, things got ugly insofar as Islam treating its Christians after the Crusades. Real ugly. But that just made a second pea in the pod.

I don't think that Islam could be considered peaceful. Christianity, for the most part, now is. If that is your point, I agree. However, as a historian of the Middle Ages, I have a much different viewpoint on the events of those times, such as the Crusades, than you might.

The base concept of Islam, "believe or die", was not "believe in Islam or die." I don't know about today's Islam. Things are changing so rapidly. In the past, where I make my studies, Islam did not say "believe or die" to Jews or Christians except when whipped up by war. Christians and Jews existed for hundreds of years under Islamic rule and many rose to positions of prominence.


Offline nabob

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2006, 11:26:22 PM »
powderman, I don't think I suggested anyone was trying to convert Muslims. The subject of forced conversions was brought up and on that score, Christianity has its own not-so-shining record.

History is what I do. Part of that is learning history from the point of view of "the other guy", so I learn about Islam. Doing so has brought me a much different understanding than the one commonly expressed by you.

In the end, though, radical Islam is a rabid dog.

Offline nabob

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Re: Iraq KIA
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2006, 11:43:12 PM »
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No......... Islam is only peaceful when it is WEAK........ the bottom line is they are beginning to once again rear their ugly heads because they believe they are strong enough to challenge the rest of the world.  They see the rest of the world not so much as Godless but as WEAK.

Historically, Islam is only peaceful when it views itself as dominating other religions. At every other time, we see the exact same thing going on as we see now.

Take the example of the Crusades. Islam in the Middle East (the rest of the Muslim world considered the Crusades to be a localized event and so did not pay much attention) was weaker than Christianity. Muslims lost famously at Dorylaeum. They then lost Jerusalem. Their reaction was to become more conservative and fundamental in their beliefs. They believed that their own sinfulness accounted for their losses and that if only they could retrench their faith and thus becoming pleasing to God, God would favor them with victory over their opponents. It is important that victory be achieved because that was the sign of God's favor to them. So, the kept fighting until they were once again dominant.

When Nur ad-Din reawoke the spirit of jihad to resist the Crusaders, he not only appealed to the religious fervor of the masses, he made the point that only by defeating the enemy could one be certain that God favored their cause and only by getting back to their roots could they please God enough to favor their cause. When Timuchin blasted across Asia to soundly defeat any Muslim army thrown against him, the reaction was the same - draw back into a more conservative form of Islam, use that religious renewal to obtain victory. Victory was the proof of the religion.

The same thing is happening now. Islam sees itself as being beset by a stronger west, a west full of material wealth and technology the Islamic world doesn't have. The reaction has been to become more religiously conservative, support fundamentalist Islamic viewpoints such as jihad once again, and thereby hope to gain God's favor, which will come in the form of victory. That's why the stalemate in Lebanon between Hizbollah and Israel was heralded as a "victory". A Muslim army had stood up to an enemy of a different religion and not been defeated. The same will be true in Iraq when we leave. Iraq will be considered not in political terms but in religious terms. Bush's ill-run war there has likely made fundamentalist Islam a lot more powerful than it was the day before he went into Iraq, which to me means that the war was counterproductive.

Yet once Islam has reassumed what it considers its natural position of dominance, it becomes peaceful again. Spain had an extensive period of peace between Christians and Muslims under Muslim rule. Christians had it tough, no doubt, but they were safe in their lives and property. When Islam is in the driver's seat, it figures it has the favor of God, and then can live peacefully. Unless it is in the driver's seat, it is violent with an aim of getting back into that leadership position.