A 336 in .30/30 for defensive purposes?

[.308 Win.]

  Ever since the Democrats have won the majority in both entities of Congress, I have been giving a lot of thought to the bad memories I have of the Clinton years with regard to our Second Amendment rights.  It seems that now would be the time to buy a weapon for defensive reasons (read Socialist agenda).  I have looked at everything from the inexpensive SKS all the way up to the M1-A at 1500.00 or so.  The AR stuff is high and mostly in .223 and I think that's anemic and so do some of our military people which is why they came up with the 6.8 but ammo. isn't on every shelf in America.  The 7.62x39 ammo. is spotty, too, the bulk of it going to Iraq. I read bad things about the Mini 14/30 about their accuracy, etc. Since I know little of semi-auto guns and my familiarity is with the Marlin lever, it would seem that could be a choice and one that can be made into a scout version.  Anyone have any ideas about this thought of a Marlin lever in a tactical situation?  I know that sounds funny or strange but a fast handling carbine with a scout configuration is considered a fast handling gun for hunting deer and the like, so I don't see it being any slower for other uses, should we have to defend our Second Amendment rights.  Thanks. 

[jvs]

It all depends on what you might think you will be shooting at and where it is.

Certainly not everything demands a High Powered Rifle.  I have always heard that a shotgun is an effective weapon for indoors because, generally speaking, Spread Shot will not go through walls.  You shouldn't need anything for protection outside.

As far as your thinking about those Democrats, they never do anything outright.  They do it in small, un-noticable, incremental steps.  A little here, a little there. 

I share your concern about the possibility of what the Congress can do, but right now those Democrats don't want to tick anybody off if they want the White House in '08.  If you have a Democratic President and a Democratic Congress after that........ LOOK OUT !

The Democrats pulled a fast one on the American People in this last Election.  What happens these next two years should open some eyes before '08.

[.308 Win.]

  That is my hope, too, that the Democrats will shoot themselves in the foot this next two years so that the American people (gun owners included) can be reminded of what it was like for us when the Clintons were in power.  I use that as plural because I think we all know Hillary had a large influence in the White House. 

  I also agree that the Democrats don't normally do anything outright.  It is our death by a thousand cuts that we should worry about, some backdoor legislation against our guns or ammo. as part of a seemingly larger subject.  However, I really don't know what that might be that would constitute "larger" status as the ability to defend our Second Amendment rights.  It guarantees all our others as well. To that end, all gun owners should be an NRA member.  They are our representatives when the ones we elect turn on us. It can happen and not only is it possible, but with a Democratic Congress and a Democratic President, it is probable.  Look at England and Australia.  I read an article the other day where in England, if you have a KNIFE over a certain length, you had to turn it in and you have to be 18 years of age to buy steak knives!!!  What's next, Cricket bats?  I mean, where does it end?  In the state of Victoria, Australia alone, after their government conficated personal firearms, firearms-related crime went up 300%.  One would think the Democrats could take a lesson from these other governments.  Not to do so only reflects a lack of intellect. 

  Appreciate your prior response.             

[Keith L]

This really belongs on one of the political forums.

It may pay for you to look at the loss of personal freedoms suffered over the past six years before getting to convinced that the Republicans are the way to go.  My bet would be that guns were on the list, but they didn't get there yet.

[jvs]

To answer your question on a technical basis, no single projectile should be used indoors for defensive purposes.  Especially a high powered rifle.  It could end up going through multiple rooms and who knows what along the way.  Right now I question the definition of 'defensive' as opposed to 'protective'.  A .30-30 would be a poor choice for protection.

On the Political side, if they want your guns they will get them.  Holding out from a barrage of Law Enforcement Officers won't do you much good.  All you'll do is make the Headlines and the Coroner's Slab, and they will do the paperwork and go home.  You get the reputation, and they get a raise and promotion for doing their job.

[superjay01]

well said Keith

[superjay01]

well said Keith

[jpsmith1]

While the .30-30 is certainly adequate for personal/home defense, I'd prefer to have a 12 gauge shotgun.  I'd be sure to keep the stocks walnut rather than EVIL black and keep a selection of ammo on hand.  I'd keep #4 or #6 birdshot in the mag tube and an assorted box of #4, 0 and 00 buck along with a few slugs in a box.  That would suffice for anything that comes your way.

Don't believe that birdshot won't penetrate walls.  At 'home defense' ranges 5' out to a max of 15', remember that a shotgun pattern can still be measured in inches, even through a cylinder bore.  You are effectively shooting a 1oz to 1 1/2oz lead bullet between 3/4" and maybe 4" in diameter.  While it is made up of hundreds of balls, it will act and hit like a bullet at closer ranges.

[LEO]

A 336 in 30-30 would make an excellent defensive rifle for 99.9% of what a rifle would ever be used for.  It is short, lightweight, plenty powerful for the intended application, inexpensive to purchase, ammo is readily available and inexpensive so you can practice without taking out a second mortgage.  The 336 allows you to top off the rifle while still remaining in battery and ready for use.  It is a relatively unobtrusive firearm visually and looks just like grand pa's deer rifle so it is not as likely to set off the panic alarms as say an AR would.  The rifle is quick in hand and doesn't have a lot of stuff to get entangled when you are trying to bring it up or move with it.  As far as I know it is not a prohibited firearm in any state.  There are a multitude of sighting options available, I would recommend either a ghost ring set up, a low powered optic Weaver makes an inexpensive 1-3 power with a very heavy reticle or a dot type sight.

I would have the trigger smoothed and the internal parts deburred.  If the rifle doesn't already have detachable sling swivel attachment points it would need them. You would need some way of carrying extra ammo with the rifle.  Other than that any other modifications/accessories are just preference.  The big thing is practice with the rifle in realistic conditions at realistic ranges from contact to as far as you think you would need to deploy the rifle.  You need to practice rapid shots and reloading from a variety of positions as well.  The bottom line is that the person operating the rifle is more a determiner of the effectiveness than the weapon type but for almost any realistic situation the lever action is more than acceptable.

[Dune]

Defensive rifle? I guess it depends on who or what you are defending and from whom. I think it would make a better offensive tool.  Dune

[Mikey]

308:  A couple of years ago there was a pretty nice lookin' 336 that some firm had turned into a scout/defensive rifle.  There is, or at least was a company that did this.  Non-reflective finish - that you can do yourself with a black plastic stock, wheel-rim paint for a non-glare finish; high visibility sights and or a scope and lazer set-up.  And all in 30-30.

Don't kid yourself, the 30-30 will do the job.  Don't worry about finding body armor and armor piercing roundsand loading them into a magazine tube, the 30-30 speaks with finality.  A soft-point may or may not not penetrate a kevlar vest but the mortician will have to pull the vest out of the biggest hole in a chest he has ever seen.  One of my house guns is a 444 with a long tube.  I'm not worried about body armor - nobody, body armor or not is going to walk away from a 330 grain hardcast slug to the chest from my 444, or a 170 gn sp from one of my 30-30s.

And Dune is also correct - it is an excellent offensive tool.  Jeff Cooper once remarked that the 30-30 would make an excellent defensive arm - he would have preferred to see one in 303 Brit but the 30-30 would do nicely. 

JVS had a solid concern about no single projectile being used for home defense - but if you have to stop armored men then a single projectile is about your only hope.  Forget birdshot, ya ain't shootin' birds and birdshot won't penetrate body armor.  Heavy steel shot might but I'm not putting my money on that or the notion that the Republican would press for gun control more than the commicrats would. 

A 30-30 is an excellent choice if ya ask me.  JMHO.  Mikey.

[Coyote Hunter]

This really belongs on one of the political forums.

It may pay for you to look at the loss of personal freedoms suffered over the past six years before getting to convinced that the Republicans are the way to go.  My bet would be that guns were on the list, but they didn't get there yet.

Yeah, that's why they just passed a law prohibiting the confiscation of guns dring times of emergency.  The law is intended to stop things like the post-Kartrina confiscation of weapons in the hands of civilians.

On the other hand, leading Democrats have openly spoken about how they would like to confiscate all weapons.  Schumer has advocated a 10,000% tax on ammo, which would have a devastating effect on the shooting sports.

[Keith L]

If you trust any of them you will be harmed.  The Neos were courting the gun vote while waiting for the right time to dis-arm all of us.  And they would have gutted the constitution well enough by then to get away with it.  The only group they truly side with are the ultra rich, and that crowd is not pro gun.

[ggeilman]

Considering it was the republican congress this fall that has suspended habeus corpus and has allowed the use of federal troops on US soil for the first time since 1878, I would not worry too much about the democrats. But enough of politics. I trust my gov't enough at this point to GET defensive weapons regardless of party. My choice was 45/70. Yeah the 30-30 will work just fine, but I want to make sure it goes through that body armor. BTW, I have 3 30-30's also just in case. I might even order some of that Garrett penetrator ammo for Rhino, Elephant and water buffalo! 

[Lloyd Smale]

half the homes within 300 miles of me are protected by one!!!!!!

[sjones]

I have a marlin 336 thats had a trigger job,williams reciever/fire set sights and I believe it will do the job,granted its not as fast as a semi auto or full auto but out to 150 to 200 yards I acn put you down with one shot each and can be reloaded/topped off while still ready to go.shoot 2 reload 2,shoot 4 reload 4.carry a rifle ammo bandelier and your good for at least 50 rounds.also if needed,shoot 1 enemy,grab his stuff and boogie.sj

[dw06]

half the homes within 300 miles of me are protected by one!!!!!!

Yeap me too and well protected too!

[S.S.]

Well it is chambered for the " ORIGINAL" 7.62x51 cartridge (the rimmed one that is).
Should be and has been an excellent self defence rifle.
 
Look up the Battle of Plevna that was fought during the Russo-Turkish war and you can see how good of a combat weapon a lever action rifle can be. I think the Turks had model 1873 Winchester's  if I remember correctly.
They Decimated the Russians with them. I do not remember what Caliber they were?
Gonna have to look it up myself now dang-it !

[S.S.]

Haven't found the caliber yet !
Did find a reference to them holding 15 rounds.
I would guess .44-40 or .38-40 maybe.
Could have been model 1866's in .44, I just can't remember.
 They used their single shot Peabody's until the Russians got pretty darn close
and then swapped to the Winchesters and Cleaned some Soviet clocks!
Heck of a surprise to the Russians I would bet!
Imagine several thousand Winchesters opening up all at once pointed
in your direction. Swiss cheese anyone !

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

On July 30, 1877, outnumbered Turkish forces at Plevna stopped a massive Russian drive on Constantinople. The Tsar's troops, armed with Colt Berdan rifles and clumsy Krenka conversion muskets, began falling at 2,000 yards (some sources claim 2,200) before the murderous fire of the Peabody-Martinis with their heavy .45 caliber bullets. When the Russians had advanced to 200 yards, the Turks put down their Peabody-Martinis and took up their .44 caliber Winchester lever actions. Their rapid fire raked the Russian ranks and broke the attack. Before the siege ended in the following January, over 30,000 Russians and Romanians had fallen to the rifles of Providence Tool and Winchester.

copied from:
http://www.militaryrifles.com/Turkey/PeabStory/PeabodyStory.htm


The heavy casualties suffered by Russian forces can be partly attributed to large quantities of Model 1873 Winchester lever action repeating rifles purchased at the beginning of the war. Turkish soldiers were able to maintain a high rate of fire versus their Russian counterparts, who were armed with single shot Berdan rifles they had to pause to reload. The success of these rifles-and their 15 round magazines-proved the military value of large capacity magazine weapons to skeptical ordinance officers in Europe and the Americas, prompting a major change in technology and tactics. By 1890 every major army had adopted a magazine fed bolt action rifle. (Source: John Walters, Rifles of the World, Second Edition, 1998)

copied from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Pleven