7.5 Swiss accuracy

[prairiedog555]

I just got my St. Marie mount for my K31.  Went to surplus rifle .com for recomendation.  Good thing I did because you have to use .22 mounts.  I ordered a set of Warne that Brownells recomended.  Mount and rings cost more than the gun!  Mounted an old Weaver K-3 scope on it that has been faultless over the years.  Fits very good, feels good.  Looks great.  Hope it holds up.  Deer season opens up tomorrow so will have to wait to site in.  Mr. Springfield will have to do, untill then.

Without scope I got 1/2 inch groups at 25 yd.  Nice trigger.
Has anyone gotten a K31 that did NOT shoot pretty good?   I am expecting 2 in groups @ 100 yd. or less.

[jack19512]

  I am expecting 2 in groups @ 100 yd. or less.

With a scope 2 in. groups from 100 yards is not very good for a K31.  With decent ammo and you doing your part here is what you should be getting at 100 yards.

[james]

Congrats on your fine rifle.  I scoped mine with the Zhu mount and a cheap simmons scope. If I do my part, It will shoot less than 1" at a hundred.  I picked up some soft points and hope to fill a doe tag with it this weekend.   I am thinking " head shot" if it is less than 50 yds, as I like things neat and love deer meat.
good luck
james

[R.W.Dale]

I am expecting 2 in groups @ 100 yd

 That's pretty much what you can expect, I Did the exact thing you did only I used a leupold 4x12 scope on my k31. Groups with GP11 ran in the 1.75 to 2.50 inch range. I would see the occasonal inch or so group with handloads but the average was right at 2" at 100.  Well within that (miniute of deer) accuracy range.

[acloco]

Here is a couple of pics.....open sights.

200 yards - 9 shots - pen is reference.


300 yards - 5 shots - marked with the green outline.

[jack19512]

I am expecting 2 in groups @ 100 yd

 That's pretty much what you can expect

   From a rifle that is world renowned for it's accuracy.   

[R.W.Dale]

From a rifle that is world renowned for it's accuracy

 You've been reading too many internet postings if you think that every single example of countrys issue rifle exibits match grade accuracy. I notice that your picture only has ONE group as an example of your rifles accuracy. Shoot five more groups like that  and then you can BEGIN to draw some conclusions as to the accuracy your k31 exibits. How many 1.5 to 2 inch groups did it take to finally print that .75" group pictured?

 I apoligise if I come across as a bit rough but I'm tired of people shooting ONE or TWO sub MOA groups and then proudly proclaming that thier rifle is a "less than one inch all day long" gun. You cannot pick and choose you must average the good groups in with the bad in order to be honest.

[jh45gun]

You forgot to add it depends heavily on the shooter too! What may be a sub moa gun may shoot only 3 inch groups with some one that cannot shoot well or does not take the time and practice to shoot well. From what I have seen of pics posted on the Web the Swede Mausers and the K31's lead the group as far as accurate rifles of course a lot of this has to do with how they were taken care of as a whole as both them nations took care of their rifles. Some of the Fin Nagants will shoot decent as some of the other Mausers too. There are far too many milsurps out there that while they may look good still do not shoot that well or only average. From what I have read of the Swede guns and the Swiss guns most examples shoot extremely well. Like Jack said decent ammo makes a difference too.

[TBS]

Should be more like 2 inchs at 200 yards.

[jack19512]

From a rifle that is world renowned for it's accuracy

 You've been reading too many internet postings if you think that every single example of countrys issue rifle exibits match grade accuracy. I notice that your picture only has ONE group as an example of your rifles accuracy. Shoot five more groups like that  and then you can BEGIN to draw some conclusions as to the accuracy your k31 exibits. How many 1.5 to 2 inch groups did it take to finally print that .75" group pictured?

 I apoligise if I come across as a bit rough but I'm tired of people shooting ONE or TWO sub MOA groups and then proudly proclaming that thier rifle is a "less than one inch all day long" gun. You cannot pick and choose you must average the good groups in with the bad in order to be honest.

1.  No where have I ever stated that every example of a particular breed of rifle will exhibit match grade accuracy.

2.  I have shot my K31 quite a bit since it's purchase and if I do my part I can at least keep my groups under an inch at 100 yards.

3.  As far as "shooting ONE or TWO sub MOA groups and then proudly proclaming that thier rifle is a "less than one inch all day long" gun" goes, I'm glad you aren't talking about me.  Someone could take that personally and think one is being called a lier or less than honest.   

You seem to have taken my post a little personal but I stand by what I posted.  If you can't do better than 2 inches at 100 yards with your scoped K31 there is something wrong with your rifle, ammo, or the shooter.  Or a combination of the three. 

You are welcome to come shoot with me anytime.  Just remember to bring your K31.   

[Val]

I have a no drill and tap, clamp on, scout scope base on my K31 with an inexpensive 2X7 scope. I get 3 shot groups of less than .5" with it. No not every single group, but when the groups are larger, it's me, not the rifle. This K-31 was giving me 2" 5 shot groups with the iron sights before I mounted the scout scope. This is remarkable with my old bifocal wearing eyes.

[jack19512]

but when the groups are larger, it's me, not the rifle.

+1   

[prairiedog555]

I got a chance to shoot my K31.  Using fmj swiss ammo at 100yd (approx. I shoot in a cut corn field with a RR embankment as a backstop)  Live in the country so don't have fancy range.  Also using a 3x weaver scope with a bag as a rest off hood of truck standing up.  after siting in at 25yd pulled back to 100yd and got about 1.5 in - 2in average groups. 
I don't know about the rest of you but I think that is great.  I think I will put a premium scope with 3x9 power on it and handload and hope to get to sub 1in. 
And I think it looks cool too. 
I read a lot of gun books and see expensive $1000+ guns that get only 1 moa.  I have a sportized Springfield that will shoot better than 1MOA, but others I know with Rem and Ruger and Weatherbys are 1.5+ 
And dosen't it feel smooth?  Real Swiss quality, if they made a truck I would buy one.

[R.W.Dale]

I got a chance to shoot my K31.  Using fmj swiss ammo at 100yd (approx. I shoot in a cut corn field with a RR embankment as a backstop)  Live in the country so don't have fancy range.  Also using a 3x weaver scope with a bag as a rest off hood of truck standing up.  after siting in at 25yd pulled back to 100yd and got about 1.5 in - 2in average groups. 
I don't know about the rest of you but I think that is great.  I think I will put a premium scope with 3x9 power on it and handload and hope to get to sub 1in. 
And I think it looks cool too. 
I read a lot of gun books and see expensive $1000+ guns that get only 1 moa.  I have a sportized Springfield that will shoot better than 1MOA, but others I know with Rem and Ruger and Weatherbys are 1.5+ 
And dosen't it feel smooth?  Real Swiss quality, if they made a truck I would buy one.

That's great I'm glad you like your rifle, I think you'll be happy with it.

[prairiedog555]

This is prairiedog555 again, I have to add that I did a really dumb thing.  It was windy and I left the K31 on the bag rest on the back of the truck bed.  When I went to examine target the gun fell off the side of the truck into the bed.  really banged around.  dinged scope ect. (what a dope)  but I reloaded and guess what?  same zero. 
What I want to say is that the St. Marie mount with Warne rings must be pretty solid.  I should write to the co. and have them pay me for an endorsment, but I won't let them show my face or real name because I was so stupid.  I try to keep it a secret.

Also, does anybody reload 7.5, who has dies? Brass? and what components do you reccomend?

Thanks

[R.W.Dale]

Also, does anybody reload 7.5, who has dies? Brass? and what components do you reccomend?

 Grafs used to carry bass but of late they've been cronically "out of stock" BUT all is not lost you can get 2rd boxes of Privi Partisan ammo on the cheap and the brass is fully reloadable. Lee and Redding makes dies but you'll probably want to spring for the reddings as the Lee dies are cut for the older k11 chamber.http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/swissreloading1/index.asp  Any good ol .308 bullets will work

[jack19512]

Also, does anybody reload 7.5, who has dies? Brass? and what components do you reccomend?

I reload the Berdan primed swiss brass and just recently started using the 284 Winchester brass but haven't reloaded much of it so far.  What little 284 Winchester brass I have loaded seems to work fine.

I have read a lot of posts about the reloading dies for the 7.5X55 Swiss and can only say that I use the Lee dies and have had no problems what so ever, matter of fact I have had very good luck with the Lee dies.

As far as bullets go any .308 diameter bullets will probably work but my K31 really prefers Hornady 165 gr. Interbond of all I have tried so far.  I order most of my stuff from either Midway or Graf&Sons.

[prairiedog555]

So, you can reload a Berdan primed case?  Like the swiss FMJ ammo that I have bought and shot?
I thought that the supplier says on the add (I bought from sportsmans guide) that it was
NOT reloadable.

[R.W.Dale]

 It IS reloadable BUT you will have to use some more specalized depriming tools and also source some berdan primers.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/berdanreloading/index.asp

[jh45gun]

I use Lee Dies and have no problems with both resizing the 284 brass and reloading it for the 7.5x55. If there is a difference it must very little as I can not see any problems with it. Also the Swiss cartridge has not changed since the 1911 rifle so I think this die controversy is a bunch of Internet Bullcrap. Lots of guys are using Lee dies and have no problems with them myself one of them.


The GP11 was load with a 174 grain spitzer bullet.  The round could travel at 2640 fps.  The diameter of the bullet was increase, and the length of the case was increased to 55m.  The GP11 generates around 45,500 psi of pressure.  Most older Schmidt-Rubins were converted to fire the GP11, and the round saw service with the 1911 series, the K31 series, and the Stgw 57 series, remaining in service until the mid-1980s. Due to the greater pressures produced by the GP11 round, it is not safe to fire GP11 rounds in Model 1889 Schmidt-Rubins!!!

In addition to the standard FMJ GP11 rounds, specialty rounds were produced as well. Armor-piercing Steel-cored rounds can be identified by their violet bases.  These rounds can easily pierce .2" of steel plate at 550 yards.  Tracer rounds burn out to 880 yards, and can be identified by their red bases.   However, most Swiss match shooters use standard GP11 ammunition, a testament to the accuracy of the GP11 round.

The headstamps on GP11 rounds can be read as thus; The numbers at the top and bottom of the case represents the month and year of manufacture, respectively.  The letter to the left of the headstamp represents where the case was manufactured, while the letter to the right represent the finally assembly point of the cartridge.  Letters used include D=Dornach, A=Altdorf, and T=Thun.

As a curious side note:  according to an article on Cruffler.com.  The Swiss GP11 bullet strongly influenced the design of the M1 .30-06 round.   For more information, click  here.

Today, 7.5 ammo is finally becoming fairly easy to find.  Several companies, are now importing GP11 ammunition.  GP11 ammuntion is Berdan primed, and not easily reloadable.  In addition, there are other alternatives.  The first, was from INDEP of Portugal.  The INDEP round is a 180gr round, traveling at around 1950fps.    INEP ammuntion is no longer available, but Prvi Partisan is similar, and available from various sources.
 
 

   
   
Swiss GP11
  INDEP 7.5x55
 Norma 7.5x55
 

Norma is the second company to produce loads the for the 7.5 Swiss round.  They have a 190 gr. hollowpoint round with a velocity of 2592 fps.  A 200 gr hollowpoint round with a velocity of 2493 fps. And a 180 gr soft-point round with a velocity of 2651 fps.  Norma tends to be much more expensive, currently street prices range from $27 to $35, but it is also more accurate.

The Norma loads offer performance similar to the 7.62 NATO round, and at least one source reports the hollowpoint round performs well as a hunting round.

Finally, Ruag, the manufacturer of Swiss ammunition, also produces a line of Match grade ammunition.  It is believed a lot SM Match Grade is about to be imported into the US.

Imported GP11 ammunition is sold as either 480 round cases or 10 round boxes.   

[jh45gun]

Forgot to add if the Swiss kept the same  exact cartridge the GP11 for the Model 11 and the K31 and the STGW 57 Then the Lee dies should be fine for the K31 since those three models of rifles used the SAME cartridge the GP11 ! 

[R.W.Dale]

http://p083.ezboard.com/ftheswissriflesdotcommessageboardfrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=370.topic&start=21&stop=40

[acloco]

Forgot to add if the Swiss kept the same  exact cartridge the GP11 for the Model 11 and the K31 and the STGW 57 Then the Lee dies should be fine for the K31 since those three models of rifles used the SAME cartridge the GP11 ! 

As krokus pointed out....they are not the same chambers.

[jerkface11]

I've had 2 K-31's and neither one of them would shoot MOA much less sub-MOA. As for the lee dies they are not cut for the K-31 chamber they're for the earlier cartridge go with the redding set they're made for the guns that people actually have.

[jh45gun]

Close enough you could take any TWO milsurps and do a cast chamber and find differences yet the ammo would still stay the same. I would say that the swiss chambers for no matter what model are tighter and less of a difference then most battle rifles.  For those that want to be picky you could shoot after using lee dies and then neck size if you wanted perfectly sized brass. Point I was making was the according to the article the Swiss ammo did not change size they used it from the G11 to the 57 so while the chamber sizes may have changed slightly the ammo size did not. IF you really want to be picky about it from what I have read was the bore size started out at .307 and later was changed to .308 something the cast sizes have backwards on that chart you posted or that particular gun was worn. Then you did neglect to post this important statment that parashooter had on the bottom of the picture. Of course these dimensions represent only four individual rifles. If you want to find out about your rifles, make your own casts (and post the results, please). So therefore my statement stands the ammo stayed the same which you would get the same result using Lee Dies or any other Dies if full lengh resizing that would remain constant. Like I said if you wanted perfect matched brass to the chamber then all you have to do is neck size for that particular rifle which a lot of reloaders do. If you want easy loading ammo then just full lengh resize.

[R.W.Dale]

Like I said if you wanted perfect matched brass to the chamber then all you have to do is neck size for that particular rifle which a lot of reloaders do.

 With the lack of a strong camming action that a traditional bolt action has neck sizing for a K31 results in difficult or impossible to chamber ammunition (been there done that). If I did not "cam over" my press when sizing 7.5x55 cases they simply would not chamber, again due to the lack of bolt camming.

 If I were buying new 7.5x55 reloading equipment I would go ahead and spend the extra $20 to get the redding dies that are reamed for the K31 chamber. Especally with a chambering such as this where long term brass avalibility can be sketchy at times, making your brass last as long as possible is a good idea.

[jh45gun]

I have not tried the neck sizing so I do not know I do know that I can put the fired cases back in my gun no problem so I would not see why you could not neck size them but I will go with what you say since I have not tried it. I do know guys are loading using lee dies and getting great case life expecially with the 284 brass. My real point is I really get tired of folks saying Lee products are not right for the job. I know my cases work fine in my gun and since 284 brass is reccomened even in the cartridges of the world book and it is a slightly different case size but close enough to work I would say using lee dies is a moot point as if it is off slightly on the shoulder it is still close enough to work well. Also seeing some of the targets of the reloads used with Lee dies on the net accuracy sure is not suffering. I posted the question of GP11 size at the Swiss site will post their answers back here no matter what the outcome wether I am right or wrong. 

[R.W.Dale]

My real point is I really get tired of folks saying Lee products are not right for the job.

 Just because someone suggests that another brand product might work better does not mean that Lee products will not work. I honestly don't understand why Lee fans are so uptight about this. Before I sold my K31 I was using Lee dies but If I had it to do again I'd buy Redding.

 Are you certian you've tried rechambering a fired case? I say this because I tried it ONCE and liked to have never gotten the action to reopen as a result. If you think about it it makes sense that you'll have to treat a straight pull rifle like you were loading for a semiauto.

[jh45gun]

Yes I just tried it again my brass fits fine once fired. All I can say about Lee products is I never had a bad one yet though like any company some may have gotten something that went past quality control I feel lee is not the junk some on the net portray and after you hear a few of them stories you get a little irritated as lets face it some folks can drive a car for 20 years and have it in good shape and others may wreck it in a couple of years. That does not mean the origional product is bad. Same goes with reloading gear, guns or any other product. For the record here is the first reply I got back at the Swiss site on neck sizing.

I neck size all the time for the Swiss. Keep the brass seperated for each rifle and use a nek sizing die NOTa backed out full length sizer. I use the Lee 303 british collet die with the mandrell turned down a bit.

[jerkface11]

 When i tried neck sizing for my rifles all i managed to do was lock up the action. Even sizing new brass with the lee dies takes a lot of muscle. As for lee equipment in general I find it frustrating to work with at best and either broken or made wrong the rest of the time.