Author Topic: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?  (Read 3298 times)

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Offline northjdr

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Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« on: November 29, 2006, 09:57:20 AM »
I am completely new to reloading. Just recieved my equiptment today. I have a finicky .308 ultra (the subject of a long accuracy thread here). I've got books. What is the most direct way to find a load that my rifle will like? I don't need a masters thesis recitation, simply a beginning point, what should I start with? What has worked for others? I am interested primarily in a good whitetail load.
Inches make champions.

Vince Lombardi

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2006, 11:05:14 AM »
What manuals do you have? I would suggest you do a lot of reading first, then you'll have a good idea how to start and the dos and dont's and what you can get away with and what can be dangerous.

Tim

http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.308winchester.html

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2006, 01:09:06 PM »
the people who shoot long-range competition with the .308 (www.long-range.com is one of their websites) will tell you to use Winchester brass over Rem' or Federal.    they like some CCI primers and Winchester 'WLR' primers.    they like IMR-4064, Rel-15 and Varget for powders.    Varget can be very temperamental, however so i wouldn't use it.

for projectiles on whitetails, mulies, caribou, and antelope i'd go with Sierra's which are usually thinly-jacketed and known to open up quickly.    for black bear and other 'dangerous' critters like hogs i'd go with Hornady spire points.

my  friends .308 Rem' Model 700 proves that the cartridge is extremely accurate and that Model 700's know how to bring it out!   i know because i load his ammuntion and shoot with him.   

great caliber.

good shooting to you,

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline northjdr

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2006, 08:58:30 AM »
I have 2 books right now. The lyman 48th( ?) edition reloading book and  a cheaper plastic bound 223 loadbook. I've read first few chapters of the Lyman book as well as a lot of threads here. Very good. Understandable. I didn't list all my reloading stuff because I didn't want to start a long thread about the merits of one press or another. I have found the reviews and infomration on the MidwayUSA site to be helpful. I also look at the return rates. I tend to buy good stuff that will last me a while. I've never really regretted spending more for quality, but I have regretted buying cheap.  I do have about 250 rounds of once fired Winchester brass because I've fired a lot of that through the gun already.  I also have about a 1000 cases of once fired Federal brass.(The range I shoot is right next to the DPMS manufactoring facility and they to a lot of 308 AR testing)I know it's only been fired once because I found piles of freshly opened boxes one afternoon and the bins brimming with fresh cases. Of course, the Lyman book says never to use cases you're not absolutley sure of. It's ironic you mentioned the Remington 700. I've decided that I'll get my accuracy fix by purchasing a Remington 700 ss milspec 5. By all accounts the Remington 700 is recognized as one of, if not the most accurate out of the box factory rifle. Please don't flame me for this. I haven't purchased a COL gauge yet and this seems to be pretty necessary. I've read about the one offered in one of the threads here. As I understand it, this allowes you to know the exact measurement for each rifle and gives you a good idea of where to start with the bullet seating. That's all for now.
Inches make champions.

Vince Lombardi

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2006, 09:33:12 AM »
Sounds like you're off to a good start!! ;)


I've only been reloading for 2 yrs, but my procedure for a Handi starts by picking a powder that provides good velocity with the lowest pressure, sometimes you have to give up a little velocity for less pressure, but looking at load data that provides pressures will give you an idea of which one to choose, but not all data sources show pressure. Most sources also show the most accurate powders for a given bullet, one more clue to an accurate load.

Once I pick the powder and bullet I want to use, it's just a matter of putting the components together in a usable package, using the recommended brass, primer and bullet. Determining COL, which in a Handi can be futile trying to reach the lands in most calibers, so most just use recommended COL and then adjust later if needed for better accuracy. The recommended COL is just a standard length that's been determined to feed thru all magazines and actions which in a break barrel action means nothing, but it does have a lot to do with the pressure that load is tested at, a shorter COL will increase pressure, longer with reduce pressure up to the point of engaging the lands with the bullet which will increase pressure again.

I check all my brass to make sure it's sized properly for my chamber, brass isn't all one-size-fits-all, sometimes it's too long or it can be too short which both lead to problems, the action won't close if it's too long and if it's too short, which is excess headspace, will cause a bunch of other issues that aren't good! Too long is easy to fix with a full length sizing die by bumping the shoulder back until the brass is flush with the end of the chamber mouth, or sticking out just a tad depending on your frame to barrel gap which adds to headspace. Knowing that gap is important on a Handi, how to determine the gap can be found in the FAQ under barrel fitting. Ideally the gap will be tight on a .001" feeler gauge blade, but .002"-.003" isn't out of the ordinary. If the brass is recessed in the chamber slightly, in addition of the gap, this leads to problems and needs to be corrected.

I use the recommended start data for the bullet and powder combination creating loads of 3 each in ½gr increments up to within 1gr of the max, then drop to .2gr or .3gr  increments to the max load. 9 times out of 10, I reach an accurate load somewhere in the mid to upper range. After each shot you need to carefully check for pressure signs, usually in a Handi, the first sign will be sticking brass, assuming it's not a dirty, oily chamber or brass causing the problem.

My way isn't the only way, just how I learned and it works for me. There's also the ladder method which I've never tried yet.

Tim

http://www.mikeswillowlake.com/ladder%20test.htm

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2006, 11:01:32 AM »
I do have about 250 rounds of once fired Winchester brass because I've fired a lot of that through the gun already.  I also have about a 1000 cases of once fired Federal brass.(The range I shoot is right next to the DPMS manufactoring facility and they to a lot of 308 AR testing)I know it's only been fired once because I found piles of freshly opened boxes one afternoon and the bins brimming with fresh cases.

   ONE:   Federal brass, per the competitors at www.long-range.com forums, is generally too soft to last long.   the primer pockets open up and the shooters get incipient case separations as well.   be careful, i'd say, with Federal brass.     


 It's ironic you mentioned the Remington 700. I've decided that I'll get my accuracy fix by purchasing a Remington 700 ss milspec 5. By all accounts the Remington 700 is recognized as one of, if not the most accurate out of the box factory rifle. Please don't flame me for this.

    TWO:   nobody should be flaming you for buying a Model 700.    they are my favorite repeaters in the rifle genre.   but the Handi's i've worked with in .223 leave very little to be desired and are my favorites in the single-shot genre.   



I haven't purchased a COL gauge yet and this seems to be pretty necessary. I've read about the one offered in one of the threads here.


      THREE:    DON'T purchase one of those multi-cartridge gauges.............if you ask me.    i think you're better off with a good dial caliper that you learn to use as a 'snap gauge' for cartridge and for brass measurements.    once the indicator is zeroed you can open your dial caliper to the desired max' length allowed for the brass or for the COL' and lock it in place.   any brass or any loaded round that fits between the jaws of the caliper will then be proper for use in your rifle.

this is a great hobby; but some of the tools that are sold for it are really not that advantageous and they are a drain on our wallets!

take care,

ss'   

Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2006, 11:09:42 AM »
The COL gauge by Randy Reeves in the FAQ works great for any cartridge and any style bullet because it takes the measurement for the bullet you're using in that firearm. In addition, the collars can be removed and used on any cleaning rod they fit on, I have to use them on a 36" rod for taking measurements on my 32" BC barrels. It's also a great buy at $25 cuz you don't need to pay for it unless it works for ya, which it will!! Kind of a money back guarantee before you buy it!!

Tim

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline DanielWGriggs

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2006, 06:22:51 AM »
I too am working up a load for a .308. I have experimented with bullet weight after free floating the barrel, adding a pressure pad, O ring in place/removed. Reloader 15 and 150gr hornady spirepoints are looking promising at a grain or 2 away from Max. The 165/168 grain will be what I try next in my quest for accuracy. I had about 20 168 gr sierra match given to me and the three shot 100yd groups were all touching.  Midway or mid south has some combined technologies stuff on sale at 14$ for 50. I may buy some of these but with Christmas fast approaching and my anneversery just passed money is tight. As I too am looking at a whitetail/elk load the match bullets have little interest except as hole punchers. With the rifle showing a preference to Hornady for the 150's I think I will try their 165gr sp.  If these fail to perform I think I will go to the barnes fail safe or mrt.

No earth shattering news just my thoughts.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2006, 06:26:20 AM »
Midway has a close out on the 150gr moly CT failsafes right now, for $13.45 for a box of 50.

Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/epromolisting.exe/showpage?promotionid=148006&eblastid=1252006&custnum=100500908
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Offline LEO

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2006, 06:39:24 AM »
I shoot quite a few 308 loads, I have had the best experience as far as accuracy across a broad spectrum of bullets and rifles with IMR 4064 powder.  My main load is a Sierra 150 grain game king bullet, WLR primers,  IMR 4064 (won't give amount as it is a near max load according to the manuals but it is ok in my rifle work up slowly and carefully), I adjust the seating depth depending on my rifle, I seat long in my Handi rifle because obviously magazine length is not an issue and it is long throated anyway but those loads won't work in any of my bolt guns.

Based on this it is important to carefully label your loads if you are loading for more than one rifle because it is rare to have two rifles prefer the same load.  The big thing with reloading is to follow the instructions, pay attention to what you are doing, don't get in a hurry and don't try to out think those who wrote the manuals as far as load data.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2006, 07:42:32 AM »

Try some Varget(44.5 grains start....48.5 grains max..) and the 150 grain Nosler Partitions or 150 grains CT Ballistic Tips......Load them out to be as close to the lands as you can get without being in the lands...Lapua brass is some of the absolute brass you can get...and is available on-line...If you can't reach the lands with the bullet...that's ok...start at the recommended OAL of most bolts guns...and try to keep atleast the bullet diameter width in lenght...in otherwords astleast .308" in the case neck...This should do good for ya...

Mac
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2006, 10:15:51 AM »
43.0 IMR 4320 and the Sierra .308 dia. 165 gr. SBT

3 rounds under a dime at 100 yds.
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Offline DanielWGriggs

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2006, 05:53:26 PM »
Thanks Quick I knew it was mid something. 38 pages trying to find stuff for us. I knominate you for Sainthood or brother of the month or something.. Thanks.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2006, 06:13:41 PM »
Ummm, that "or something" has me a little worried!!! :o :D

Glad to help!! ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline northjdr

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2006, 08:18:09 PM »
I am still getting my room set up. But I now have everything I need. My crony and my case trimmer came yesterday I think Midway has hired additional staff just to handle my account. I appreciate all the good ideas and I'll  work on my first loads soon. I'll keep you posted.
Inches make champions.

Vince Lombardi

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2006, 08:31:01 PM »
Another source for cheap, but excellent bullets is Nosler seconds at their Pro Shop, they have lots of .308"s in Accubonds, Partitions and Solid Base! I've shot a lot of them, they shoot extremely well, I have yet to see anything wrong with them, lots of shooters at other forums swear by them and you won't beat the price!

Tim


http://www.shootersproshop.com/2ndsheader.html
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2006, 01:06:26 PM »
Tim,

thank you very much for the tip on the 2nds!   i just ordered.

many thanks,

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2006, 01:12:42 PM »
You're very welcome ss, but I gotta tell ya, every time I think about telling the world about em, it crosses my mind that next time I want to order some, there won't be any left, but I've gotten my share of em already!!! :D

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline northjdr

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2006, 04:48:47 AM »
Well I'm finally getting the time to start the laoding process. But now I'm confused. I have some Hornday 150 gr. SP's to load but the info in the Lyman book (48th edition) conflicts with the information in a 308 Loadbook. For the same powder (IMR4064for example)the LYman book has much higher load weights and the highest load amount in the Lyman book exceeds the Maximun recommend in the Loadbook.
Inches make champions.

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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2006, 05:43:17 AM »
Data changes over time as powder mfrs change the powders slightly, I'd use the Lyman data, the 48th is their latest, the Loadbook may be old data. Here's IMR's data.

Tim

http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/308win-2005apr03.php
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2006, 06:58:43 AM »
Well I'm finally getting the time to start the laoding process. But now I'm confused. I have some Hornday 150 gr. SP's to load but the info in the Lyman book (48th edition) conflicts with the information in a 308 Loadbook. For the same powder (IMR4064for example)the LYman book has much higher load weights and the highest load amount in the Lyman book exceeds the Maximun recommend in the Loadbook.

Each rifle..and or each test barrel will provide different data...What holds true for 1 rifle..won't hold true for another built at the same time...This is due to the difference within the chamber and bore..The data provided in the manual is a guideline to what you can and cannot do...and to show the linear pressure curve you will get with the powder...or in some cases...the verticle straight line...Look to the total overall pressure given from start to max...This is a good guide to what you can expect the powder to do in a simalar barrel...

Start with the minimum loads...and work up in small incriments...checking for pressure signs as described in your manuals...You'll be fine...

Mac
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Offline northjdr

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2006, 08:00:15 AM »
Thanks, I guess the jouney of a thousand handloads begins with the first cartridge. I expected to see some differences in the books but not aS drastic as this. For the same bullet (Hornady 150 gr SP #3031) The Complete Reloading Manual for the .308 Winchester starts with 38.4 gr (2300 fps) of Imr 4064 with a maximum load of 44.9.(2700 fps) But the Lyman Reloading Handbook, 48th Ediition has a suggested starting load of 43.0 gr (2645fps 41.1k pressure) with a max of 48.0 gr.(2890FPS  52k C) So I plan on starting at the 43.0 gr and watching for pressure signs. Wouldn't I be wasting my time with the lower velocity loads?
Inches make champions.

Vince Lombardi

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2006, 08:48:19 AM »
Velocity isn't as important as accuracy, work up from start data until your find the accurate load, I use ½gr increments, when you find a sweet spot, and it's not as accurate as you like, experiment with .1gr increments & seating depth to fine tune it.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2006, 11:58:11 AM »
Thanks, I guess the jouney of a thousand handloads begins with the first cartridge. I expected to see some differences in the books but not aS drastic as this. For the same bullet (Hornady 150 gr SP #3031) The Complete Reloading Manual for the .308 Winchester starts with 38.4 gr (2300 fps) of Imr 4064 with a maximum load of 44.9.(2700 fps) But the Lyman Reloading Handbook, 48th Ediition has a suggested starting load of 43.0 gr (2645fps 41.1k pressure) with a max of 48.0 gr.(2890FPS  52k C) So I plan on starting at the 43.0 gr and watching for pressure signs. Wouldn't I be wasting my time with the lower velocity loads?

Actually no...you won't be wasting anytime at all..and should be how you start out reloading...All of the reloading manuals are a guideline to what you can expect from that particular powder/bullet/barrel..and in many cases..you will see that many times..the lowest velocity is shown as the most accurate load......No 2 rifles or no 2 test barrels are exactly the same...and you will find over time that the components you elect to use will give varying results as well...Hand loading isn't a exact science..there will always be variables to contend with...What we as responsible re-loaders can strive for is consistency... We can have a particular load give extraordinary accuracy one day in the summer..and then that following hunting season when the temperature is below freezing..give lousy accuracy...We have to take into account the various burning rates and if they are temperature stable or not..Some loads we only use during the hot months..others only during the coldest of months...others we can use year round without worrying about it loosing 100-200 fps or being over pressured for that load in the gun because of the temperature......Consistency in our groups is what we strive for...Not just the highest velocity...Being able to achieve the best accuracy..with the best velocity time after time with our loads...rain or shine...hot or cold...in the snow & ice of winter..or when the humidity is at 100%...This is the goal of all of the hand loaders I know...and of myself as well...Which would you prefer to have...an occasional 1/2" group...or a 1" group every time you pull the trigger no matter the time of year..or what the temperature is outside? This is the consistency I am referring to,and you'll find it isn't always the fastest load that gets you this type of performance..

Mac
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Offline northjdr

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2006, 06:37:26 AM »
Ok, point made and taken, I'll start low. Merry Christmas everyone (or to be more inclusive"Happy HannaRamaQuanzmas")
Inches make champions.

Vince Lombardi

Offline northjdr

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2006, 11:49:11 AM »
Well I hope to finally create some rounds tonight. I've been tumbling brass and preparing cases and getting my room set up.  I am looking foraward   The holiday season has really cut into my spare time! I recieved my factory 2nd's from nosler yesterday. I honestly cannot tell the difference and the savings are about 50%. Thanks for the heads-up Tim.
Inches make champions.

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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2006, 12:18:26 PM »
You're very welcome!
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline mstake

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2006, 02:08:38 AM »
I have been reloading for 10 yrs. What i ussually do with a new gun is pick the bullet that i want to shoot. Then i look at the load data for the round in as many books as i have and i have 6. then i look at the max load in grains because the will vary a little from book to book. I pick 3 powders, ussually not the highest in velocity and not the lowest but in the middle to high. Then using the bullet i want i load them 1.5 grains to 2.0 grains under the max load from the manuals. i load up 5 to 6 rounds for each of the 3 differant powders and shoot them. which ever one works the best for me is the one i play with. then i load up 5 rounds around the first load. so lets say 44 grains of 4064 worked out of the first batch. i would load 5 rounds of 43 grains, 5 rounds of 44grains and 5 rounds of 45 grains. I load 5 rounds incase i throw a shot i have 2 more rounds the same.Then from there you can play with primers, seating deths, brass, what ever else you would like. The worst thing you can do is get cault up in the speed ( velocity). The other is that if you haven't polished your bore like the say in the faq. your not going to get your best groups for a while until the bore breaks in. Basic good relaoding is were you want to start and strive for then you can play with all the other gagets later.
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Offline carbineman

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2006, 04:12:35 AM »
northjdr, FWIW,I had a since departed .308 Ultra and never could quite get the rifle to shoot right, not to mention having spent case extraction/ejection problems. (These are now fixed with the new extractor from what I've read) I sold the rifle to a relative (having explained the accuracy problems I had)and had an older fixed power scope he wanted with it. I helped him sight it in,and we used some Speer 150 grain pointed bullets that he had and some Accurate Arms 2520 powder I had, with some 250 CCI primers and the rifle shot well from there on in. He uses it for plinking and has developed a load with the Speer 110 grain pointed bullet and the 2520 powder. Maybe this might help you out.

Offline northjdr

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Re: Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2006, 02:59:56 PM »
Update: Well, stayed up until 2:00 loading 50 rounds for the 308 Ultra (my first reloading rounds ever). It was a bit wet and breezy today but I had to get to the range. I loaded 5 rounds at each ladder rung. I set up the Crony (also a first) and started shooting. When the dust cleared I was pretty happy. Since I am testing, I didn't know what to expect. I was using IMR 4064, cci primers, and Hornady 150gr SP. All groups at 100yds.My first 2 five shot groups were 3.3 and 3.5 respectively. Not great but things got better, Next groups were 1.9", 3", 1.6", 2.2", 1.45" (last group of day was Avg 2471 fps, with a SD of 8.71) So I'm pleased with the results. Every shot went boom and things seem to be heading in the right direction. Back to the reloading room. Thanks again for the help.
Inches make champions.

Vince Lombardi