Have You Tried a Depleted Uranium Frizzen?

[simonkenton]

http://www.orau.org/PTP/collection/consumer%20products/dufrizzen.htm

[Graybeard]

Is that TRADITIONAL?

[simonkenton]

Yes it is traditional, Graybeard, sorta. It is a combination of the flintlock and the nuclear reactor.

[Slamfire]

Probably causes cancer. 

[quickdtoo]

Hmmm, get your radiation treatment and have fun shooting at the same time!!

Tim

[longcaribiner]

I received a 12 ga trade gun in a swap about 20 years ago.  Fella said it had a Nuclear Frizzen.  It would spark with a piece of limestone in the jaws.  Prolly underwater too.  The sparks were bright blue and would sizzle and dance around the pan for several seconds.  I fired it a few times and swapped for a trade gun in 24 ga.  What it was made of I don't know.  There were rumblings in PA about banning them from muzzleloader shoots.  Pa regs for flinters also may make such frizzens illegal for hunting, not that the WCO's would know anyway.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I like it! 

I think the whole point of depleted Uranium is that it is minimally radioactive, less than uranium ore found in nature.  In other words, you'd probably die from the lead poisoning from handling roundballs before you'd die from the depleted uranium.

[Slamfire]

I don't quite remember the half life of U-238, but it was longer'n any of us are gonna live, And then it's only half as deadly as it was to start with. 

[rzwieg]

...What Slamfire said. Wouldn't catch me using one!

[AndyHass]

The Army said depleted uranium was safe too, but they found in Desert Storm that all the dust from the depleted uranium tank shells going off might be making people sick.  Last I heard they were trying to switch to tungsten projectiles.

A frizzen sparking is probably throwing off a tiny bit of that dust, right next to your nose.  Probably ok but I don't think I'd chance it.

Even slightly radioactive materials can be exponentially more dangerous when ingested/inhaled.  Just ask that former Russian spy.

[captchee]

Even slightly radioactive materials can be exponentially more dangerous when ingested/inhaled.  Just ask that former Russian spy.

different type of radiation , its effects on the human body are completely different  not comparable  im afraid .
 you get more radiation from the sun , inhaled more  hazardous materials every day just living in your own home . Subject your self to  microwaves in every shape and form imaginable just driving down the road., not to mention talking on a cell phone  and your worried about DU dust ?  LMAO

  Yes they are good sparkers . Yes they last along time . Are they traditional? In the since of shape  and purpose yes .
 Is the material traditional , no but no more so the  steel in the barrels of even traditional rifles today .
Would I use one ? Well I have seen them  used , they spark really well .
 However if you have a GOOD flintlock  and you do what your supposed to its  carbon steel frizzen sparks very well  with a large shower of sparks  as well .
 So the answer is no  I wouldn’t use one . IMO what we do is about experience . About learning , about knowing the problems that can happen  and the draw back of those problems .
 If one wants to  produce an item that will  set off a flintlock every time with a chunk of chalk in the jaws then IMO your doing the same as the modern shooters are doing .
So I guess it would all come down to the why of it  . Not for me sorry
 

[AndyHass]

Even slightly radioactive materials can be exponentially more dangerous when ingested/inhaled.  Just ask that former Russian spy.

different type of radiation , its effects on the human body are completely different  not comparable  im afraid .

 

Well, yes and no.  Polonium is an alpha emmitter and uranium is a gamma emitter.  Alpha radiation has poor penetrating ability (it's essentially a helium nucleus) while gamma radiation can shoot right through you very easily.  On that you are correct.  However, the end result of both types of radiation on the body is double-stranded DNA breaks, which are very toxic.  Due to their penetration differences, alpha emitters must be ingested to be toxic while gamma emitters do not.  I do not know the actual radiation levels from depleted uranium, nor wither it contains other isotopes that might emit alpha or beta radiation.  However, if aerosolized and ingested, they are all very toxic.  There is a reason that the military has tried to move away from depleted uranium as a component of projectiles....if not radiation then what?

[AndyHass]

My last post hasn't appeared...lost I guess.

Anyways, further research indicates that depleted uranium is depleted of gamma radiation....not alpha/beta radiation.  So if ingested, it is still very toxic.  The amounts that could be ingested from a frizzen would likely be small, but current thinking is that there is no safe threshhold for radiation.  if I shot a lot, I do not think i would want the exposure to frizzen dust that a nuclear frizzen would create.

[captchee]

 i know the different types of radiation very well Andy . 12 years as a NBC  officer for the US army, you learn and see  and witness a lot  of information .
the 1/2 life of the sources of the  radiation you speak of is minimal and lethal only in high doses . alpha partials are about as deadly as asbestoses. In fact  even ingested its not the radiation from  the dust contaminated with those alpha partials that will  kill ya but the burns caused from those partials . 

the problem isnt the radiation its the Polonium.  it stays in your system has a long 1/2 life and thus kills you becouse it in itself is a radiation source .

 i would seriously doubt that  a person would get  much if any  recordable or detectable amounts of radiatioo from  such a frizzen as one mad of DU . the person standing next you you would probably receive more then the shooter ever would .
 In fact a person would most likely  have a higher hazard of lead poisoning then  the effects of radiation from a DU frizzen  or for that mater  the sun burn they get from shooting all afternoon

[AndyHass]

the problem isnt the radiation its the Polonium.  it stays in your system has a long 1/2 life and thus kills you becouse it in itself is a radiation source .

...so the problem IS the radiation....that's how polonium kills....hence the hair falling out and wrecked immune system he suffered.  Isotopes with long half lives are dangerous because they lead to longer levels of sustained radiation exposure....it's still the radiation doing the dirty work.  You seem to know this so maybe I just misunderstand you.

Yes, I agree the amount is very low.  But what's safe?  Who knows.  I tend to shoot my guns quite a bit and not knowing what level is safe I'd just prefer to avoid the unnecessary risk when normal frizzens seem to work fine.  I try not to handle lead bare-handed often either.  If it doesn't bother you, go ahead.

Asbestos is a bad comparison, by the way.  Mesothelioma is a nasty way to go and I wouldn't want inhalation exposure to that either.

[captchee]

 no andy the problem is that the source does not clear the system  it stays and thus the radiation builds to levels that the body can no longer handle . we recieve radiation every day . however our bodies can handle the amount  of damage it does and that our Rad count stays acceptable  .
 however when you have a source that is in constant contact with you or  be it a solit source or liquid and its 1/2 life  is suficiant to  render RAD that are higher in numbers  per hour  and constant , you quickly  become over dosed

 tis is why folks that deal with diffrent types of radiatin sources must have a dosomiter . this meater tells them when they have reached levels aprouching unacceptable limits or as in many cases to let them know when  they are recieving radiation at higher then normal levels .
 when those limits are reached they are removed tell the given 1/2 life of thie perticulare type of radiation drops  and they can again resume work .
trust me when i say it very worrysome when your dosomiter starts to climb .
 however if your carrful their is no real ill effects past ,,,??? bad spelling  and studd dd dd erin

[crow_feather]

I  onct hered of a rifle that would spit lead out ta barrel like twere gettin blowed out by lightnen.  Seems it had one dem atomic frizzins.  Seems dat frizzen twould suppercharge dat powder lak nobodys business.  Feller had ta sell dat rifle.  Said he double loaded it once and dat ball went all da way round the earth and hiit himself inna butt.  Dat shot made da news,  youall hered bout the shot hered round da world.  Seems a few weeks later, I hered dat he twere sent two repair bills fer puttin a hole in dat Big Ben buildin in England and puttin a hole in da great wall in china.

[Slamfire]

no andy the problem is that the source does not clear the system  it stays and thus the radiation builds to levels that the body can no longer handle . we recieve radiation every day . however our bodies can handle the amount  of damage it does and that our Rad count stays acceptable  .
 however when you have a source that is in constant contact with you or  be it a solit source or liquid and its 1/2 life  is suficiant to  render RAD that are higher in numbers  per hour  and constant , you quickly  become over dosed

 tis is why folks that deal with diffrent types of radiatin sources must have a dosomiter . this meater tells them when they have reached levels aprouching unacceptable limits or as in many cases to let them know when  they are recieving radiation at higher then normal levels .
 when those limits are reached they are removed tell the given 1/2 life of thie perticulare type of radiation drops  and they can again resume work .
trust me when i say it very worrysome when your dosomiter starts to climb .
 however if your carrful their is no real ill effects past ,,,??? bad spelling  and studd dd dd erin

Kinda like mercury vapor. When yore teeth turn black, and loosen, you git away from it, cause the next symptom is brain deterioration, ala The Mad Hatter in Alice in Wonderland.

[Longknife]

I'm with Captchee, WHY? If you have a good quality frizzen and a sharp, quality flint then it will produce enough sparks to light the pan. Why the overkill?  I remember this stuff 25 years ago, they made the guy stop selling it.  It seems that the real problem with DU is when it is atomized and inhaled, Lets see, you strike tiny bits of it off into the pan and then ignite it!!!! RIGHT NEXT TO YOUR FACE!!!!!! NO THANKS!!!!!!!

[TrenchMud]

Does the smoke come out of the lock in the shape of a little Mushroom ?

[AndyHass]

When tiny pieces of the frizzen are atomized and inhaled, they ARE a radiation source that does not clear the system.  Do you know what isotopes form the radiation emitters in depleted uranium?  I don't, and I don't know their specific half-life.

Your description of radiation exposure is not quite what is accepted in the scientific community.  It IS NOT KNOWN whether or not there is a "safe" level of radiation exposure.  It is currently assumed that there is not.  In some positions, such as the Army, certain jobs must be done and some exposure comes along with that.....this does not mean that those exposure levels are completely safe.

A dosimeter does absolutely nothing to gauge your exposure to an inhaled radiactive alpha/beta emitter....it'll be inside your lungs/bloodstream and even a high level would read zero on an external dosimeter as the radiation cannot exit the body.

I am a molecular biologist.  The body is decidedly bad at repairing the type of DNA damage caused by radiation...that is why it is unknown if there is any truly "safe" level.  The levels I was exposed to when I did research were deemed "acceptable", yet the cancer rate for lab personnel in the US is 3X that of the average population.

A steel frizzen seems to work fine...I still see no compelling reason....it's like changing a musket to use 209s.  Overkill.

[captchee]

then andy , you should no better. know what the dosomiter reads , what it doesnt read and why . you would also know the acceptable rads per hours , how each  radiation works as well as the half life of DU

[Woodbutcher]

 Crowfoot said it best! Woodbutcher

[Don Krag]

I wandered over from the cannon forums and ran across this thread. Very interesting.

Aside from building cannons, my *real* job is a consulting health physicist. I also did 6 years of research for health effects using transuranic nuclides. Radiation risks are all about statistics. Depleted simply means depleted in the fissile isotopes (U-235, U-233), and  useless for a weapon, not that it isn't radioactive anymore. If you have DU (or any U for that matter), you also have the entire decay series down to lead ( including polonium 210). Uraniums and their products give off primarily alpha and beta, with a mix , gamma, neutron and x thrown in to boot depending on the isotope. The amount of DU you would inhale into your deep lung as a result of using one of these is *most probably* negligible. However...it would really suck to be that one in 10,000 guy that did develope lung cancer. It's an easily avoided exposure, thus, I would avoid it.

Just for fun, and because I'm a complete geek, I set up some modeling software to calculate a dose to someones lungs from a chronic exposure to U-238 assuming they averaged one shot per day from 1/1/1990 to today. It'll be a few hours before the software finishes, though.

added: 5.26 rem to the lung assuming you manage to inhale an average of 20dpm(0.333Bq) per day from shooting using one of these.

Now, that being said...I would absolutely love to have one! I collect all sorts of radioactive consumer items and minerals. If anyone has one they're willing to part with, shoot me an email.

[captchee]

good post don , very good post

[Don Krag]

I used to get a kick out of the old lantern mantles. They used a radioactive curium isotope as the metal that glows when heated. The backs of them had a warning that said "Warning: Contains a substance known to cause cancer in the state of California." Thank goodness I lived in Texas, so I was safe!

Here's a block of DU, 80's vintage. This hunk weighed about 12 lbs if I remember correctly. Kind of neat metal as it's self-bluing. It'll turn all shades of gold , purple and blue on contact with air.

[AndyHass]

then andy , you should no better. know what the dosomiter reads , what it doesnt read and why . you would also know the acceptable rads per hours , how each  radiation works as well as the half life of DU

This above is borderline incoherent.....

I told you why it doesn't read...an internalized alpha/beta emitter cannot be detected outside the body as the radiation is blocked by the tissues yet it can still harm you.  I also explained exactly how the radiation gives you cancer.  If you would like to know the most common genes affected it's p53, c-myc, ras, and a host of others depending on the tissue.  As for acceptable rads per hr, I have no need to know that as it's been a number of years since I worked with radiation.  And I know there is no known "safe and acceptable" level of radiation, less is thought to be better.  As Don said, "acceptable" is just a term they use to say that you reach some statistical level that is NOT zero, and I personally know a couple former X-ray techs who got cancer despite "acceptable" levels of exposure.  As for the isotopes and half-lives, the difference between you and me seems to be that I will admit what I know about and what I do not...whether I possess said knowledge is meaningless to this discussion unless you can demonstrate that depleted uranium contains only short half-life elements with negligible radiation.  You have not, and since I don't know, I'm not going to go exposing myself lacking that knowledge.

I'll take Don's comments on this one (thanks Don, very interesting).  He seems to know what he's talking about.  You seem to have just overhead a conversation or two here and there and seem intent on turning this into a p*$$ing match.  I've voiced that I respect your opinion to make up your own mind, I suggest you be big enough to do the same.  I'm done with this one.

[quickdtoo]

With that, this topic is now locked....it was interesting while it lasted, and I appreciate the technical knowledge that's been shared, but it's time to move on.

Tim