Half Cock question

[Muskie Hunter]

I just picked up a 36 cal. navy made by Euroarms Brescia in 1973.I know the original owner and the revolver was only fired a few times and then put away until now.My question concerns the half cock position as I have never owned a black powder revolver until now.I was reading a post on loading the BP revolvers and one "how to " post stated that by putting the hammer at half cock,the cylinder will rotate freely.I find this statement odd since the half cock position on other firearms are a safety and the cylinder will not rotate freely.The BP revolver that I have,does not rotate freely except when just easing back the hammer just before it falls into the half cock position.Is this the way it should be?
Also,I have tried to do some searching to find out a bit more about the Euroarms Brescia revolver but can't seam to find any info.I assume that  Euroarms Brescia is no more.Can anyone give me any further info on this revolver?It,by the way,has a brass frame and a battle sceen on the clyinder.It is at home in my hand and I can't wait to shoot it.

[mykeal]

With the hammer in the half-cock position the gun is indeed in the "safety" position; it should not be possible to cause the hammer to fall by pulling the trigger; this is the normal safety position for virtually all cap and ball revolvers of that era. This is also the normal loading position.

In the half-cock postion the cylinder should rotate freely in a clockwise direction (clockwise as seen from the hammer, or the back of the gun viewing forward). There should be an audible click as the cylinder is turned and each chamber passes the hammer. It should not be possible to reverse the cylinder rotation past the position where the click was heard. That is, once you hear the click you cannot "back up" the cylinder. It will be possible to continue the rotation in the clockwise direction past the click; if you attempt to reverse it part way between the clicks it will allow a return to the position where the click was heard but no further.

Failure of the cylinder to freely rotate clockwise with the hammer in the half-cock position indicates a damaged hand spring or bolt spring. The gun should be repaired before using it.

With the hammer in the full cock position the cylinder should be tightly held in place with a chamber and nipple under the hammer, ready to fire. it should not be possbile to move the cylinder by hand.

I have no information on Euroarms Brescia.

The brass frame is a cosmetic affectation. Depending on the model it may or may not reproduce an original design. Brass frames are cheaper to produce and have a reputation for reduced durability, but many people prefer their looks to plain steel frame revolvers. One word of caution: it is always important to use no more than the design powder load in a black powder weapon, but this is especially true with the brass frame revolvers. Use of "hot loads" will likely hasten the demise of the weapon as a usable gun faster than a steel frame gun.

[Muskie Hunter]

Thankyou for the feedback on my revolver.I will look into the problem before I fire it.I'm glad that I asked before I went any further with it.

[Flint]

If your cylinder locks up as it reaches the half cock position, it means the bolt is dropping too soon, and the problem might be the cam on the hammer being worn or rounded or the forked spring tail on the bolt that rides the cam is too short, weakly sprung or worn.

Often the problem can be fixed by gently prying the forked wings apart with the blade of a small screrwdriver or similar tool.  Bend only the wing that rides against the hammer outward to increase the pressure against the hammer's cam.  This will keep the sprung wing against the cam longer, if it had been slipping off prematurely.  Also check to see that the bolt wing is not cracked, weakening the spring action.

[Muskie Hunter]

Thanks Flint,
I have been searching for a breakdown for this navy revolver since I don't have the manual ,not sure what I will be getting into when I start backing out screws.I sure don't want to end up with a slinky heading for the basement steps.Yes,the cylinder is locking up before it comes to half cock.Thanks for letting me know what the problem might be.

[Flint]

Look at the VTIgunparts website, there are exploded views of all the guns with part names (and prices) listed.

A (Colt) Navy is a Navy no matter who made it, and the parts location and disassembly are the same, and basically the same as a SAA.

First thing to remove is the backstrap, 3 screws, one at the butt and two at the rear either side of the hammer.

Then loosen or remove the mainspring screw to take pressure off the hammer.

Remove the three screws on the bottom of the triggerguard and remove it.  This will expose the trigger/bolt spring, unscrew its screw and remove it, noting which way is up.  The trigger fork is the longer one.

Remove the trigger and bolt screws at the side and remove those parts.

Remove the hammer pivot screw and slide the hammer out downwards, pulling the hand (pawl) and spring with it.

Assemble in reverse order.

[Muskie Hunter]

Thanks again Flint,itdoesn't get any easier then that.You explained the take down well to me .I'll give it a shot.

[mykeal]

Read the sticky post at the head of this forum on Colt revolver disassembly.

There are no slinky springs hiding inside, waiting to disappear under the table. However, sequence is important to making it easy, so follow the procedure.

While you have it apart be sure to thoroughly clean and oil everything.

[Muskie Hunter]

Well,it was a misseable cold, rainy day, here in Ohio so I took advantage of it and tore into the 1851 to see what makes it tick.I was ashamed of myself for worrying about the diffaculty of taking it down and gettying all parts back in correctly.It looks like the bolt finger that rides on the cam is pretty worn and the hand spring doesn't look quite like it should according to the diagrams that I've seen.I ordered those two parts and hopefully that'll take care of the half cock problem.If not,then I'll move on to learn a little more about the revolver and eventually,I'll gitter done.
Thanks for your guiidance in this matter.You guys were a big help.

[mykeal]

Good.

Let us know when the parts arrive and how the reassembly goes.

I just completed restoration of an 1851 Navy brass frame in 44 cal with a round barrel for my brother-in-law. He bought it at an auction. The cylinder did not rotate and the hammer would not stay in either half or full cock position; the grips were badly carved (at least a 1/4 inch oversize in some places, undersize in others), the barrel was dirty and fouled and still had original machining marks indicating it had never been finished, and the brass was rough and dirty. The proof, maker and date marks had been sanded or filed down to virtually nothing, although the serial number on the frame and the manufacturer's name and caliber (on the barrel) were intact. The fouling in the barrel and cylinder indicated the gun had been fired a very long time ago but it had never been cleaned. I told BIL it was likely pitted beyond repair in the barrel and the springs in the action were likely broken, so there was little hope of saving it.

However, when I got it apart I found all the parts were OK, just very fouled and dirty. I cleaned everything, and much to my surprise the bore was just fine! I finished and polished the barrel, polished the brass and carved the grips back to the frame shape, test fired it and with the exception of the near eradication of the stamps on the frame it's a very nice piece. Considering it's unusual configuration (44 cal, brass frame, round barrel) it was really a worthwhile project. It won't ever be a show winner but it's a fine shooter. There's always hope when patience and care are taken.

[Flint]

mykeal, sounds like that Navy was a kit gun someone didn't finish.

[mykeal]

mykeal, sounds like that Navy was a kit gun someone didn't finish.

Yeah, that's what it looked like to me. The grips had clearly never been anything more than rough cut, same thing with the barrel. The brass, however, had been heavily sanded; it looked like someone had attempted to remove the proof and date stamps. The serial number had not been touched, however, nor had any of the barrel markings. It had a Pietta manufacturer's stamp as well as "Euroarms of America" on the barrel. It had clearly been shot and not cleaned - fouling in the barrel and lots of gunk coating all the action parts. When I got it cleaned up, however, the action was good and tight with no cylinder end play or rotational play. Alignment was virtually perfect. Rifling is clean and sharp, but there is one small corrosion pit that concerned me. I put two full cylinders through it using light loads and, while I intend to keep an close eye on the barrel, I think it's going to be a nice shooter for my BiL.

[Muskie Hunter]

My parts arrived for the 1851 repair but as luck would have it,nothing fit right. Again,the 1851 Navy was made by Euorarms Brescia of Italy back in 1973 or 76 ,my memory just falied me again.
The new bolt arms appeared to be to long and the bolt stop seemed much higher then the original. The new hand spring didn't fit either. The shaft that fits in the hammer was a larger diameter then the original also.I didn't want to drill the hole in the hammer any bigger since there isn't that mush meat around the hole and it would make that already thin area much more thin. I thought that I would go a head and order a new cam for the hammer so I tried to tap the original cam out with a punch and hammer but no go there either.Short of using a bigger hammer and a great deal more force,I quit while I was a head.Does that cam really come out so you can replace it ?
Out of despiration, I bent the arm out further on the original bolt like Flint told me to do in the first place and it solved the problem.I had tried it before and it didn't work so I obviously didn't use enough muscle the first time for fear of breaking the arms off.
I ordered the parts from Dixie and they are surely nice stainless parts but just to big for my old 51.Maybe they will fit in my new Cimarron 1851,if the time comes for such a repair. I also have a new 1858 New Army ( Navy ) 36 cal. I haven't had that revolver apart yet but will those new parts fit that as well ? Not knowing if the procedeure for taking the 1858 down is the same as the 1851,I have not attempted that yet.
All in all, it was a good learning experience for me and if I am going to pursue the sport of black powder revolvers,I'll need to know this stuff.The art of gunsmithing is a dying breed around my neck of the woods so one must do things himself.
Thanks for folks like you and your good nature to help others.

[mykeal]

Filing/polishing/grinding parts to fit has long been a requirement for these foreign made cap & ball revolvers. Just a part of the genre, I'm afraid.

You're doing the right things and learning by doing as many of us have done. Keep trying.

[Muskie Hunter]

Mykeal,
Thanks for the chin up. I already broke out my old dremal tool and honeing stones,just in case.

[mykeal]

BTW, here's another source for parts: http://www.vtigunparts.com/. Just in case.

[SilverVTX]

A question on the Euroarms Brescia .36 Navy revolver:  What is its ball-park value?  I inherited one that has sat unused since purchased by my dad in the mid 1970s.  It "may" have been fired but it is clean and the supplies in its wooden box are all there. 

I'm not hunting or shooting any more and would just as soon pass it along to someone who would use it.  A friend is vaguely interested and I'd like to go with a price that is fair to all, but have no idea what that price is.  The web auction sites were of no help and I found this site on Google.  Muskie Hunter had purchased one (Dec 2006) and his question and the replies implied the people here know what they are talking about.

Appreciate.

[mykeal]

Depending on condition, of course...

The gun is probably worth between $130 and $180 in very good to near excellent condition; that is one that has been fired and well maintained.

I'm not aware that Euroarms Brescia means there is any premium beyond the market for a good condition 1851 Navy. The box and accessories may add some, say $50-$60, also depending on condition. The box is much harder to value; there are people who make "antiqued" reproduction boxes that sell for as much as $150, but I don't know if the market really supports that.

[SilverVTX]

Thanks, Mykeal.  This is what I was looking for.