Author Topic: Another best ML thread (Read 1432 times)

crb4809 · « **on:** December 05, 2006, 03:52:03 AM »

I read all of the replies to Lonewolf-one's question since I am currently doing research before buying my first ML. It seems that a lot of people like the TC rifles and there was a lot said about the encore and omega, does anyone have an opinion on the Black Diamond XR? Does anyone have a brand other than TC or NEF that they believe is superior for the price and why?
Also is there any real difference in the stainless barrel over a blued barrel for barrel life, accuracy, etc. I would assume that rust or lack thereof would be the only advantage for stainless.
I am starting to plan for an elk hunt next fall and wanted to buy a rifle early enough to have time to get familiar with it and know how it performs. It must be a 50 caliber and I believe that sabots are not allowed.
I hope this doesn't start another shouting match, but any and all opinions are welcome. Also if it makes any difference, I would just as soon buy a good used rifle as a new one. The box and "new car smell" don't mean a thing to me, being a tightwad I just want to get the most for my money. Thanks in advance for all who reply.
One more thing, scopes are not allowed so any opinion on factory open sights would also be appreciated.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #1 on:** December 05, 2006, 05:26:11 AM »

If you are planning on shooting full bore conicals you might want to look at one of the White rifles. They are the absolutely best conical shooter from what I read. I just ordered one and it is in process of being finished. You can buy kit type rifles from the Doc White site for around $300. Most of the T/C rifles have a QLA muzzle relief which is not the best for conical bullets. The Omega is intended to be a sabot shooter and conicals are likely to be a problem with some of them. I have been told he NEF rifles will shoot conicals. I have one but have not had it long enought to sort out the possiblity of conicals as Arizona allows sabots so that is what I have been shooting.

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #2 on:** December 05, 2006, 05:42:03 AM »

One thing you need to look at crb is where you'll be hunting at. Lot's of elk hunting states do not allow scopes, closed breeched area's, nor 209 primers.

Then there is the sabot rules. Samething, no sabots. Then there is the conical rule. Conical no longer than 2x the dia of the caliber, and must be at least 50 cal.

I don't hunt elk. But if I did I would research the laws and rule for the state you're going to hunt.

crb4809 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 05, 2006, 05:47:19 AM »

Here are the current regulations for Colorado. This is what I am basing my needs for my first ML upon.

"Muzzle-loading rifle or musket" means a firearm fired from the shoulder, with a single
barrel which fires a single patched round ball, or bullet, the length of which does not
exceed twice the diameter.

Elk regulations
2. Muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets, provided the minimum caliber shall

be forty (.40) for all big game except elk and moose. The minimum caliber for elk and

moose shall be fifty (.50). All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets from forty

(.40) caliber through fifty (.50) caliber must use a bullet of at least 170 grains in weight.

All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets greater than fifty (.50) caliber must use

bullets of at least 210 grains in weight.

a. During the muzzle-loading firearms seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and moose

only lawful muzzle-loaders and smoothbore muskets may be used by muzzle-loading

license holders.

b. During the muzzle-loading firearm seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and moose the

following additional restrictions apply:

1. Propellent/Powders: The use of pelletized powder systems and smokeless powder

are prohibited.

2. Projectiles: Sabots are prohibited. For the purposes of this regulation cloth patches

are not sabots.

3. Loading: Firearms must load from the muzzle. Firearms which can be loaded from

the breech are prohibited.

4. Sights: Any muzzle-loading rifle or smoothbore musket with any sighting device other

than open or “iron” sights is prohibited.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 05, 2006, 05:47:53 AM »

Quote from: Keith Lewis on December 05, 2006, 05:26:11 AM

If you are planning on shooting full bore conicals you might want to look at one of the White rifles. They are the absolutely best conical shooter from what I read. I just ordered one and it is in process of being finished. You can buy kit type rifles from the Doc White site for around $300. Most of the T/C rifles have a QLA muzzle relief which is not the best for conical bullets. The Omega is intended to be a sabot shooter and conicals are likely to be a problem with some of them. I have been told he NEF rifles will shoot conicals. I have one but have not had it long enought to sort out the possiblity of conicals as Arizona allows sabots so that is what I have been shooting.

Remember one thing, all we can give is our opinion. I like Encore's and there are others that like whatever they shoot. My suggestion to you is, go buy a muzzleloader and try it out, why take our word for it. The best experience you can have is to do it yourself.

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #5 on:** December 05, 2006, 06:01:46 AM »

Quote

Remember one thing, all we can give is our opinion. I like Encore's and there are others that like whatever they shoot. My suggestion to you is, go buy a muzzleloader and try it out, why take our word for it. The best experience you can have is to do it yourself.

And your Encores shoot full bore concials well?

With open sights??

Myerslake2005 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 05, 2006, 07:06:31 AM »

I also looked into a ML hunt in Colorado last year. At that time the CVA Powerbelts were also a legal bullet since they do not have a sabot. Check into it and don't take my word for certain.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 05, 2006, 12:56:10 PM »

Quote from: SURVEYOR on December 05, 2006, 06:01:46 AM

Quote
Remember one thing, all we can give is our opinion. I like Encore's and there are others that like whatever they shoot. My suggestion to you is, go buy a muzzleloader and try it out, why take our word for it. The best experience you can have is to do it yourself.

And your Encores shoot full bore concials well? With open sights??

I did not say my Encore shoots concials well. The Encore open sight are one of the best though. My answer to crb4809 was more on the lines of picking a M/L and going out and shooting one.
But just for you information Colorado allows power belts in muzzleloader and they do indeed shoot well out of an Encore.

So no need to roll your eyes.

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #8 on:** December 05, 2006, 01:16:01 PM »

Sturgeon · « **Reply #9 on:** December 05, 2006, 02:33:02 PM »

WHITE

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #10 on:** December 05, 2006, 02:40:33 PM »

You said that right!

Hard to beat a 460 grain pure lead conical! Power Belt What?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 05, 2006, 05:48:50 PM »

SURVEYOR,
I see the same tissue damage with a 30-30, I also have the same out come with a power belt, and even my 195 gr. PR sabot. I don't need a photo of a common entrance and exit hole to make my point.

crb4809 as I stated before, get a muzzleloader that meets the criteria need for your hunt and go out and shoot it with different loads and conical's and power belt. Then make an informed decision and enjoy your hunt.

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #12 on:** December 05, 2006, 06:11:01 PM »

You're being bias! You don't like it when someone dosen't agree with you! That's not the position a mod should be in! I for one have no problems with an Encore. I wouldn't have one. So in fact I don't feel they're the best muzzle loader on the market. Never once did I say Whites were.

Enjoy Your Hunt!

Jules J.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 06, 2006, 06:20:00 AM »

Quote from: SURVEYOR on December 05, 2006, 06:11:01 PM

You're being bias! You don't like it when someone dosen't agree with you! That's not the position a mod should be in! I for one have no problems with an Encore. I wouldn't have one. So in fact I don't feel they're the best muzzle loader on the market. Never once did I say Whites were.

Enjoy Your Hunt!

Jules J.

Come on SURVEYOR, just because I am a Mod does not make my opinion any less than your's or a reason I can't voice mine. Mod or no Mod I would still feel the same way. I have posted numerous times that my opinion is the Encore is the best muzzleloader, that is my opinion. And I also posted that others may have there choices for what they believe is the best. I don't have to agree with everyone here just because I am a Mod or get up set because other don't agree with me. I have shot a bunch of muzzleloader's and for me the Encore has been the most accurate and easiest to clean for me. Therefor I recommend the Encore and think it is the best muzzleloader out there.

Wasn't the title of the thread 'Another best ML thread"? Wouldn't it all be opinion's weather they are bias or not. Also I never did mention Whites in any of my posts.

So chill out and try to enjoy the forum, sorry if you don't agree with my opinion.

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #14 on:** December 06, 2006, 07:54:43 AM »

crb4809 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 06, 2006, 11:07:31 AM »

Thanks for all of the replies,
My brother has an Encore and likes it real well. I read somewhere that the Omega and Encore have the same barrel. Is there any difference between these two models besides the stocks? I am thinking that I would want to have a 26 or 28" barrel I believe that it will be slightly more accurate, especially with open sights. There are not a lot of gun shops that carry black powder in south Texas so actually getting a hands on experience with several different rifles won't be possible.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #16 on:** December 06, 2006, 11:57:46 AM »

There is a major difference in action design between the Encore and the Omega. The Encore also has the ability to use other barrels which the Omega does not. Some have accuracy problems with each of these but usually it is a simple problem With the Encore some hinge pins are loose. With the Omega some stocks are not bedded well and they have barrel contact that causes accuracy problems. These do not occur on all rifles and even if they do they are easily fixed. Most rifles have similar problems. Speaking of Whites (which I do not own one yet) they do come accurized if you buy it that way. I believe that is the only company that does that. I do know that Knight advertises that they guarantee some level of accuracy also. I don't own one of those either. I have an Omega and an NEF and a sidelock T/C , and a Lyman maybe a couple of others. I am working on getting a White .504 for elk. Best of luck with your decision. It really is beneficial to handle a few rifles if you can do it. Try Walmart for a a fair selection. Usually some T/C and a lot of spanish CVA and Traditions. Personally I don't own any spanish rifles but that is a personal thing and I know a lot that do and love them.

MI.sabot · « **Reply #17 on:** December 06, 2006, 02:48:40 PM »

KEITH:

Sent you a PM !

rks1949 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 07, 2006, 02:03:54 AM »

Well,I might as well throw my $.02 in!

I have a Prohunter,and a White .504. I like them both! They both drive tacks with the right loads. I like the White where my shots are limmited to 125yds,or less. I like the Prohunter for hunting in open areas( edges of bean/corn fields, where longer shots are possible!) Would I get rid of either one? NOPE! Diffrent guns for diffrent purposes! The ONLY draw back with the White is,ordering the bullets for it,but I don't shoot it as much as the Prohunter. I picked up a T/C Grey Hawk,and shoot round ball,with it, (I had forgot how much fun it was to keep things simple)! Any one of these guns will knock deer GRAVE YARD DEAD. So which one's the best? It just depends on what your are hunting,where you are hunting,and how far you are expecting to have to shoot.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #19 on:** December 07, 2006, 06:03:33 AM »

Why is your White limited to 125 yards? Is is because of the heavier bullets that usually shoot out of that rifle? I am in process of getting a White Thunderbolt which has been described as a 200 yard rifle. I understand that the heavier the bullet the more curved the bullet path so lighter bullets shoot farther with less drop. If sighted at longer distances the heavy bullets are still as accurate and possibly a little more so as less affected by wind.

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #20 on:** December 07, 2006, 06:33:34 AM »

I agree Keith,

I have my Super 91 shooting a 460 grain NoExcuses with 85 grains of 777 ffg sighted in at 125 yards.

dist path Vel. ft/lbs
25   1.4   1352   1866
50   3.0   1306   1742
75   3.4   1263   1628
100   2.4   1222   1526
125   0.0   1184   1432
150   -4.0   1150   1351
175   -9.6   1119   1279
200   -17.0   1091   1216

I have found this manageable being the White and NoExcuses are quite accurate throught out all these ranges. The beggest thing I see is the retained Velocity & Energry! Sure it's not flat like a high powered rifle. But as I've said very accuracte, and very deadly.

It's not for everyone. It's only a choice. But I'm glad we have choices!

SURVEYOR

rks1949 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 07, 2006, 02:13:59 PM »

Keith,I use a apture rear sight,and a fiberoptic front sight. I set my guns up for a point blank hold(dead center in the boiler room). I give myself a six inch kill zone,for the vitals. With my White's zero set at 100yds. this gives me a point blank range from zero yards to 125. Any where within 125yds it will be "in the zone" up to 3 inches high,to 3 inches low. It makes it simple to hold dead on and squeeze the trigger. My Prohunter extends this range to 200yds,holding dead center(it shoots much flatter). Ron

Sturgeon · « **Reply #22 on:** December 07, 2006, 04:48:03 PM »

White 504 www.whitemuzzleloading.com/prod04.htm
#412- G-series Bison kit. 504 caliber.

toytruck · « **Reply #23 on:** December 10, 2006, 03:26:40 PM »

Well, I just have to chime in here....I happen to own both a TC .50 Encore and a White Super 91 in .451. I happen to like both of them for the purpose each serves, but if I had to chose between the two just for muzzleloading seasons I would pick the White hands down. Yes, its open breech, but that is the only problem with them if you call that a problem. My scope on the Encore has had to be wiped down at times as well. I happen to prefer big lead conicals vs sabots, just my opinion and preference, nothing more. I have killed my share of deer with saboted bullets starting with the TC FireHawk. I killed two bucks with the Super 91 last month. The Encore will get her chance in the late season with the .452/300 XTP/Harvester sabots, that load with two pyro pellets is the most accurate load I have shot with the Encore to date, looking forward to testing them out if the deer cooperate. I like the Encore for its weather resistence, SS/synthetic stock. My White Super 91 is just a weather proof with the "black ice" coating, but with the laminated stock I don't want to take a chance and get it very wet/cold.

Keith Lewis, you might want to reconsider buying a White thunderbolt. I have no experiences with one, but know people who have owned them and have had their share of problems in the bolt. (Surveyor, maybe you can help him out with that one, not sure.) You won't go wrong with any of the plunger style Whites though. The Super 91 or Ultra Mags or Model 97's or Whitetails if you can find one would be a better choice.

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #24 on:** December 11, 2006, 05:49:39 AM »

Ok toytruck! I don't own a White Tbolt, but read my share of problems with the bolt and 209 primers. The bolt dosen't seem to work as well as Doc designed it, but he did make a breeck plug with a primed case close as to what every one is using on Huntsman's and Encores. The Tbolt is nothing more than a Model 98 with a bolt. A Model 98 striker can replce the bolt and shoot #11's, musket caps, and 209's. The #11 caps are the most water proofed primer system around, bar none. The breech plug and nipple are one, and the #11's fit so tight that no water is going to get in. Now Doc did go to Aferica last year are so with a Tbolt and case primer set up. You can read about it here.

http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/south_africa.htm