Author Topic: Punt Gun?  (Read 5857 times)

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Offline Rickk

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2006, 11:33:37 AM »
When you are done buiding it with all the suggestions you are getting, there is one more safety issue that I see glooming over you.

Your back is going to hurt when you lift it  :D

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2006, 01:14:06 PM »
My approximation of the weight of the steel is 130 lbs.
GG
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Offline Rickk

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2006, 01:39:55 PM »
What would we have done if OSHA was around in 1900 to save us from ourselves?

Offline NitroSteel

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2006, 03:28:43 PM »
Insert Quote
"What would we have done if OSHA was around in 1900 to save us from ourselves?"

We'd probably still have at least a 90 day duck season, with no bag limits...

I messed around in the shop the yesterday and built a little mortar (properly) with some of the scrap seamless and some other material that just happened to be a perfect fit.  This afternoon I shot the little golf ball mortar (about a 2.5 inch barrel) with some pyrodex that I had.  I didn't have any blackpowder so figured I'd try the pyrodex...

Man, what a disapointment.  Pretty much a fizzle.  I ended up patching the ball to give it a little more pressure and it did o.k., but I NEVER had that problem with Fg blackpowder in my BB mortar.  The chamber on the little mortar was 1" diameter by 1" deep.  It made me think of possibly putting a bigger powder chamber in my punt gun (was already planning a 1.5" deep by 1" diameter chamber).  I want to make sure I make it big enough, but no bigger than necessary for the maximum safe powder load for the bore.  I'm just not sure how much volume that 1Fg will take up.

Do ya'll have a size recomendation for the powder chamber of this "cannon"?  With the 1" diameter chamber the wall thickness is 1" all around (2 inches on the rear).  I could go to a 4" diameter sleeve and go to a little fatter powder chamber.  What do ya'll recommend?  I want to make sure that I'm safe and that it has plenty of "umph".  It'll already gonna be too heavy to pick up, it might as well be a monster...

I'd really like to put my "order" in tomorrow at the metal shop.

Thanks again,

NitroSteel

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2006, 04:27:14 PM »
Pyrodex in small quantities does not work in artillery.  You just can't get the pressure up to where Pyrodex needs it.

A 1.25" dia chamber will give you 56% more volume than a 1" dia chamber.  1 5/16" is 72% larger.  You don't want the breech plug walls too thin.
GG
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Offline Double D

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2006, 04:48:36 PM »
I wouldn't let your results with Pyrodex  be the determinating factor for a powder chamber. Try some  black in that little golf ball mortar and it will work just fine.  Actually the chamber in you golf ball mortar sounds a bit big.

I would not put a chamber in your gun at all. Think about how you would get the powder in the chamber at the end of a 5 foot long 1 inch hole. I load 185 grs  of Cannon in my 1 inch gun and it makes a pretty large cartridge.  Yours is gonna be even larger since you are going to need to make up shot cartridges

You only need a  minimum  3 inch breech diameter by the safety guidlines so 1 inch walls .  That is 1inch in all directions.

George, why do you think there needs to be compression on the breech band? I would agree with you a little if this was cast iron or bronze. But in this application you only need something to retain the barrel in the sleeve.  Neither N-SSA and AAA call for shrink fitting liners. Switlik even describes the process of slip fitting the liner as the best method of fitting the liner.  After all that's all this barel is is a liner the that sticks out tehe ndo of the sleeve.

NitroSteel you are referring to your copy of the More Complete Cannoneer to build this gun aren't you?



Offline NitroSteel

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2006, 05:39:10 PM »
Double D, if I don't put a powder chamber in this gun then it will be 1.75 inch diameter bore, which will not be 1" thick walls - - only 5/8 wall thickness (using a 3" sleeve).  No way I would try that.  I've got to have a powder chamber or make the sleeve much thicker (sleeve out of 4.75" round stock minimum).

Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks again,

NitroSteel

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2006, 07:06:41 PM »
George, why do you think there needs to be compression on the breech band? I would agree with you a little if this was cast iron or bronze. But in this application you only need something to retain the barrel in the sleeve.  Neither N-SSA and AAA call for shrink fitting liners. Switlik even describes the process of slip fitting the liner as the best method of fitting the liner.  After all that's all this barrel is is a liner the that sticks out the end of the sleeve.

When lining a bronze, or especially a cast iron, barrel, we want the liner to take the majority of the stress/expansion and by leaving a space or a resilient filler between the liner and barrel, that is what we get.  When putting an external reinforcement over a chamber, we want the reinforcement to be engaged from the beginning of the expansion, not only after the internal tube has expanded to fit the hole in the external tube.  Otherwise we don't really have a chamber wall that is chamber diameter in thickness.

I suppose that making the diameters exactly the same would be close enough and that would be easier to push the one onto the other, but the shrink fit guarantees the coupling between internal and external almost as well as if they were one piece.  The retaining of the sleeve is only inertia versus recoil; the shrink fit is more than sufficient for that.  With a tight slip fit, I would probably lightly weld the backs of the two pieces together.  On the other hand, since you probably have machined the outside of the 2.25" tubing to get a true cylinder for the reinforcing sleeve, the shoulder at the front of this will keep the sleeve from moving forward, which is the direction it will want to move from firing.  And the vent liner will also resist movement.
GG
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Offline NitroSteel

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2006, 08:01:20 AM »
I went back to the machine shop today with my "final answer" and it should be done for me on Wednesday.  I am taking my barrell to the shop and he is going machine it, heat it, and press fit the sleeve on the barrell and press fit the breech plug in also.  I decided not to make a powder chamber because of loading issues.  With the increased "bore" diameter to 1.75", I decided to use the 6" diameter sleeve (6" long - - bored completely through) which will give a wall thickness of 2.125" and a 2" thick breech plug.

With the exception of a sore back, this should clear up all of the safetly concerns re: wall thickness and metal fitting issues.  I will also have it welded at the rear.  All of this and drilling the fuse hole for $100.00.

Let me know if ya'll have any concerns...

I'm happy, he's happy.  Merry Christmas Ya'll.  Thanks again for your help. 

NitroSteel

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2006, 08:21:34 AM »
I hate to tell you this but giving up the chamber makes me want to make the sleeve 8" long instead of 6".  And the fuse hole should be lined so that corrosion won't start between the layers.
GG
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Offline NitroSteel

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2006, 09:18:01 AM »
Dangit man!!! ;D

I'm not saying your wrong, but tell me why?  This leaves 4" of sleeved for powder and shot or golf ball.

I'll do it if necessary, but I'll have to go actually find the piece of metal - not really a problem, but just one more thing to do.  6" long 6" round stock was what he had (well, really 7", but one end was rough cut). 

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2006, 09:53:52 AM »
Dangit man!!!   ;D

Because you changed the design without consulting!   ;D  Now the expansion right in front of the powder area (which causes the pressure to reduce)  is a lot slower than it was with a 1" chamber opening into a 1.75" bore, so I want the reinforcement to reach out farther since the pressure isn't going to fall off as fast as before.
GG
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Offline NitroSteel

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2006, 11:43:28 AM »
Alright then.  I don't guess it really matters anyways since it is already too heavy to lift without a reinforced boom anyways...  I'll go find a piece of steel and put in for a "change order".

At least it will be right (safe) when it's finished.  Is everyone in agreeement with GGaskill?

Thank you again for your help.  I really appreciate it.

NitroSteel 

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2006, 12:43:25 PM »
Without seeing the drawings, it looks good.  Shrink fitting the sleave adds to strength.  Overbuilding, if it is, is OK.

Looking forward to seeing pictures!

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2006, 01:58:58 PM »
... it is already too heavy to lift without a reinforced boom anyways...

It's certainly too heavy for me to do curls with, but it will be fairly easy to lift one end into the bed of your pickup and then lift the other end and slide it in.  Doing it in two moves means you only have to lift half the weight at once.  I can't do that with the 3/4" wall cylinder my bowling ball mortar is made from.

Here is what I think the design is:
GG
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Offline Double D

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2006, 05:22:24 PM »
I can only base my thoughts on what I know from taking pressure reading from rifles.  Using piezo electric measuring the strain guages are placed 2 inches ahead of the chamber as the position to measure max pressure.  Beyond that pressure starts to drop. This is for smokeless powder. Different energy principles, but I think you can still use them.

Okay, now interpolate that over to your gun. You want your reinforcment to be more 2 inches longer than the chamber.  Whats the chamber?  In the rifle its the section of the barrel where the powder is contained. Gibbons doesn't give clear defintion of chamber.  He does say the powder is contained in the chamber.   So by extension, in the cannon the chamber is the area where the powder is contained.  This means you need to know the total length of the maximun charge for the bore.

You need to make a make max charge and measure it. Then make your reinforcement band no less than 2 inches longer,  I would say at  least 3 and maybe even 4  inches longer.

This is of course based on my interpretation of the factors involved taken from several different sources not from some specific reference. 



Offline NitroSteel

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2006, 11:48:05 PM »
I think the max powder charge will take up no more than 2 inches of length in a 1.75" diameter chamber.  IF you count the projectile (and I think you probably should) as being in the "chamber" (it is in a shotgun or rifle) then you're looking at nearly four inches of chamber length.  So yes, I say that a 8" long sleeve will not be overkill, but necessary to be safe assuming you want 3 or 4 inches of reinforcement ahead of the chamber.  I just hate that it has to be 6" diameter, it is gonna add so much weight.  I wish I could get away with a 4" diameter sleeve (only 1.125" wall thickness, with a 1.75" bore), but won't if it is not safe...

Thank ya'll again.

NitroSteel

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2006, 06:10:08 AM »
You could round off the back end of it.  The rear corners are only contributing weight.  Also, if you are planning to shoot golf balls, you might consider giving the barrel a deliberate bend to get uniform spin on the ball.
GG
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Offline Eightbore

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2006, 04:26:35 AM »
Some info that might help you;

Gun Weight              Bore Size           Charge of Shot           Length of Barrel
60 - 70 lbs             1 1/8" - 1 1/4"       10 to 12 oz               7'-0"
80 lbs                    1 1/4" - 1 3/8"          16 oz                    7'-6" to 7'-9"
90 - 100 lbs            1 3/8" - 1 1/2"        18 to 20 oz             7'-9"
120 - 130 lbs          1 1/2" - 1 5/8"         22 - 24 oz              8'-3"
130 - 140 lbs          1 5/8" - 1 3/4"         24 - 26 oz              8' - 6"
150 lbs                  1 3/4"                       26 - 30 oz            8' - 9"
160 - 170 lbs          1 7/8"                     30 - 32 oz              9' - 0"
170 - 185 lbs          1 7/8 -  2"               32 - 40 oz              9'-3" - 9'-6"


Also earlier it was mentioned that the elevation of a punt gun was "fixed" this is not true, it can be adjusted by various methods. In the main a "rake" was used. This is a block of wood fastened to a rod, which was pulled back and forth under the tapered portion of the breach to barrel this then elevated the gun or lowered it or a small threaded fork on a "Y" stand was adjusted up and down to change the elevation.

With the guns I have made I have always screwed the breach plug into the breach to give a "safe" fixing with a small timing peg being used to give a visual assurance. Ignition was from a cap (doubled in one instance) through a small insert to the main charge (main charge was always the same diameter as the bore). Or a screw type breach to a cartridge pre-loaded with 18 oz of shot fired by a 0.320 blank over (I think) 4 oz of Number 6 black powder (would need to find my old loading to be 100% sure of that). The breach block used for the cartridge was a 1/4" acme thread  1 3/4 x the diameter, with a lanyard to trigger. The action was similar to a bolt action on a rifle I made it this way for ease of cocking with very cold hands.

If you have any questions I might be able to help but it is over 25 years since I made my last punt gun. Think I still might have some of the original plans knocking about but would take an age to find then. Also letter from the Birmingham Proof House and Eley on charges that they thankfully helped me with in the 60's
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2006, 05:13:21 PM »
Eightbore -

WELCOME to the board!  Thanks for publishing the info!

Experience is always the best place to start when designing a shootin' iron, this helps!

Post a few pix so we can see your handiwork!


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Offline Eightbore

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2006, 10:32:50 PM »
Thanks for the welcome.

Wish I had done some pictures but in those days did not bother with photos, seems a shame now but that's the way it goes.
I do still have some of the punt gun cartridges and I am sure that I will have kept the drawings for the two breach loaders. The muzzle loaders where never drawn I just made them as the fancy took me. Being a toolmaker by trade and having access to all sorts of lathes and milling machines etc. making parts was never a problem for me.
Barrels were made from high quality seamless tube (normal T45 or better) and the breach reinforcement and cone from EN8 these were sweated together and them TIG welded to ensure that no water could ingress into the "joint areas". The breach block was joined to the breach with a 1 3/4" x 1/4" acme screw thread by 2" long. The cartridges were held on to the end of the block by a collar, this gave easy removal after firing. When I get some time I will try and find the drawings and scan them.
For the muzzle loaders, the same basic construction was used but the breach was screwed in and pined off, (I never welded them in) this always gave you the options to remove the "plug" and clean it if required. As one lays behind the gun in the punt, did I make sure that plug was well screwed in, because if it comes out it is only going in one direction "yours". The ignition hole was always in the side (again mainly for safety reasons).
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Offline NitroSteel

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2006, 06:01:50 AM »
8 bore, that is some good information.

This is what I'm having done, it is in process (supposed to be finished today) probably won't be finished until tomorrow.  I'm guessing it won't be finished then at the rate it's being done...

5' barrell of .25 wall thickness seamless tubing - I.D. 1.75", O.D. 2.25".  10" long sleeve of 4.5" diameter round stock 2.25" hole bore through and shrink fitted over rear of tubing.  2" long breech plug threaded into rear of tubing.  Threads will be 1/8" deep 12 TPI (I think I'm saying this right).  Plug will be slotted for ease of removal.  I am making a 4.5" diameter, 1/2" thick flat cap which will bolt onto the rear of sleeve (over threaded plug) with 1" long 1/2" grade 8 bolts .  The trunion (8" long 2" diamter round stock with a flat milled on one side) will be welded onto the rear of the cap.  The cap basically will serve as an easy way to mount the gun in a stock (or carriage) and still have a removable breech plug, it may offer a little protection from escaping gas and may add a bit of strength, but that's just incidental.

The wall thickness will be 1-3/8" (for a total of 10") with a 1-3/4" bore diamter.  The touch hole (ignition system still largely undecided) will at least start out as 1/8" hole about 3" forward from rear of gun, it will be on the side instead of on top, both for sighting and for safety.  It will initially be fired with a fuse, but will end up as being fired with a 209 primer and hammer of some sort.  The initial ammo will be a golf ball.  Depending on whose "rules" I use, I guess I can use up to 3.5 ounces of cannon grade (or a little less Fg?).  I'm not really sure how to load "shot" into it safely and effectively, but will look on the muzzleloading shotgun forum for information on that (unless ya'll can help).

I can't wait to get it up and going...

I'm very happy with the design.  It's involved a little more work and is better thought out than it was initially going to be, but in the end I believe I will be very happy with it.

Offline Eightbore

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2006, 08:34:54 AM »
The ignition hole I used to have at the rear of the powder load, as close to the breach plug as I could get it about 3/16" diameter and tapped to take a niple with a 1/4" thread to suit the 3/16" hole. I used to prime this with a very fine powder and then screw in the niple.
For the muzzel loaders a shot charge could be added in a scoop type ram rod or in a paper tube, used to be made from paper (with wall paper paste on it rolled on a mandrel) allowed to dry and filled with the shotsealed with sealatape and push down the spout.

The cartridges were much easier (see attached photo)

Hope I got it right.
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Offline Eightbore

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2006, 08:35:37 AM »
Yes it worked pictures of the cartridge added.
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2006, 08:54:51 AM »
10" long sleeve of 4.5" diameter round stock 2.25" hole bore through and shrink fitted over rear of tubing.  2" long breech plug threaded into rear of tubing.

I see the design has changed again.   ;D
GG
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Offline Eightbore

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2006, 09:35:12 AM »
10" long sleeve of 4.5" diameter round stock 2.25" hole bore through and shrink fitted over rear of tubing.  2" long breech plug threaded into rear of tubing.

I see the design has changed again.   ;D

Better at that size and having a screwed plug  8) Would be nice to have a taper run off at the front to give something for the elevation to work on.
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Offline NitroSteel

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2006, 03:15:13 PM »
Yeah, the design changed again, (really very slightly).  I just decided if a 8" long sleeve would be good, a 10" long sleeve would be better.  I decided to spend the extra money on the screw-in breech plug, money well spent - most agree.  Also having the exterior of the barrell machined for a really good (perfect) shrink fit.  The only thing I'm doing that is LESS than up to spec is using a bit thinner piece of sleeve, but it would just be too hard to build a stock around a piece of 6" round stock and too much unnesessary weight, I felt like that was just overkill for this application.  1-3/8 inch wall thickness is 3/8 inch thicker than my BB mortar and I am using a 1/4" smaller "bore" and shooting a much lighter projectile with less powder.  I feel good about it.

My powder shipment came today.  Hopefully my "gun" will be ready tomorrow, he PROMISED it would be.  Thank ya'll for your help.  I can't wait to post the results.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2006, 04:54:04 PM »
I agree the smaller sleeve will be adequate.  It's just that the official forum formula for wall thickness is chamber diameter.
GG
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Offline Eightbore

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2006, 09:02:09 PM »
Well having gone through the spec you are making, for a typical punt gun the barrel is of course too short. On a punt gun the breaching rope would go to trunions, these would go to the bow of the punt and through the woodwork and back again.
I have attached a very basic drawing showing how bits went together.
The loading for the 1 1/2" was 3 1/2 oz of powder to 18 or 20 oz of shot. With a 1/2 dram of fine priming powder. (this worked for the cartridge or the muzzle loader).
Also I have data that quotes the following (applies to punt guns of course);
This refers to a3 oz powder load A barrel length of 6 1/2' would only burn 1 1/2 oz of powder efficiently whereas a 7 1/2' barrel should burn up to 2 1/2 oz of powder. With this referring to a 3 oz load one must assume it relates to a 1 3/8" bore gun but it does not say.
To proof the gun we would load it with a double measure charge, this would be fired (with the gun supported in a "nest" of sand bags) with a very long piece of string. Then stripped and re-measured. No noticeable change in size meant it was a good one.
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Offline NitroSteel

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Re: Punt Gun?
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2007, 01:51:49 PM »
Finally got it together today (tonight really).  I ended up drilling the fuse hole myself, but most of the rest of it was done at the shop.  He went ahead and camphered the rear of the barrel and welded it there after machining both the barrel and sleeve and shrink fitting them together.

Of course I had to go ahead and fire it.

I used a fuse for ignition, but that will soon change.  I used 2.5 ounces of BP and MAN!!!  It had some serious volume.  It was much different that my BB mortar.  The screw in breech plug is really nice, I'm glad ya'll talked me into spending the money to do it.

I am planning on initially building a carriage for it, while having the stock built, so that I can safely shoot it in the mean time.

I am really happy with the volume and the impressive plume of smoke.  I can't wait to shot it in the daytime.

Thank ya'll again for your help.

Sincerely,

NitroSteel