Author Topic: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??  (Read 1714 times)

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Offline tuxdad

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H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« on: December 10, 2006, 01:56:22 AM »
I've been wondering are there any rifle matches or ppl out there who have put their NEF/H&R's up against some of these fancy guns, in competition ??

I've benn thinking of entering a few with mine, just to see how I do...

I know with my hornet, I'd open a few eyes, but not saying I'd win but it'd be fun to do it..

Tux

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2006, 02:18:31 AM »
That's a great idea tuxdad. Many of us have shot informally at our own ranges "against" the more expensive rifles and opened some eyes, wide!!! I have shot my .17 HMR "bnech to bench" so to speak against an Anshutz 1717D (.17 HMR) with a Unertel scope, that costing about $2,000.00 + and mine costing about $200.00 +, and the little Sportster shot better. That was an eye opener, but not to me!!!....<><.... ;D

P.S. we were only shooting at 50 yards and my .17 Mach2 shoots better than my HMR at 50!!! Imagine if I had my .17 Mach2 with me that day!!! 
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline tuxdad

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2006, 05:51:29 AM »
I'll be giving it a try, but I'm gonna be doing a good bit of practicing for the 200 and over yard ranges...

Gonna have to work on some wind doping as well I imagine but it'll be fun...

Thanks for your words of encouragement...


 ;D

Tux

Offline Mac11700

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2006, 06:36:51 AM »


I've shot right along side of some BR guns before...It's a real hoot when your groups are as good as theirs are...especially when you ask them "How much did you pay for that...?"...While they aren't BR guns...they can be made to shoot exceptionally well...most of the time...

Mac
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2006, 09:39:06 AM »
Here's a related thread I remember well, found it with the google search, believe it or not!! ;D

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,95235.msg1098231925.html#msg1098231925
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline tuxdad

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2006, 02:02:31 PM »
Interesting story Tim, thanks for the link....

He was shooting a 308 eh ?? Hmmmm....

I've got a survivor, but just haven't gotten around to making any loads for it as of yet...

Just might be about time...lol

Right now I've just got the hornet set up with loads..

I'm starting to look forward to this now...

Any recommendations for a good bench rest and bags for my li'l hornet ??

Tux

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2006, 02:09:23 PM »
When I use just bags, I use a Caldwell Rock Jr up front and one of their rear bags. But most of the time I use a Premier Rest from Cabelas cuz it allows the forward rest to be placed under the hinge and is high enough that when I shoot heavy recoil loads, it doesn't hurt me!!

Tim

Premier Rest





"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline tuxdad

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2006, 03:05:49 PM »
Mighty fine looking rigs you got there quick !! That just reminded me to look into getting a new fore end for my one handi... Right now its got a schnabel(hope I spelled that right) fore end, but I'd like to try maybe a target fore end for it instead...

I'll be checking out thos caldwell's but as far as bags, I've been shooting off of regular old sand bags at my buddy's place... So, I'll probably stick with those.. I haven't tried shooting with a rear bag... Should I ??

Tux

Offline cheatermk3

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2006, 05:17:52 PM »
Should I ??

Tux


Yes!!  It's way steadier.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2006, 05:36:07 PM »
Thanks and sorry, I missed the question. Definately, support by your body only doesn't provide a steady shot, only tests how steady you can hold, putting the rifle entirely on bags or a rest tests the rifle, not so much the shooter, although the shooter still has to control the rifle. The movement is real obvious with a high power scope, even your pulse and heart beat will make the reticle jump if you don't support the rifle in bags well, you just can't see the movement with typical hunting power scopes of 4x, 2-7x or 3-9x.

One of the nicest forends for an H&R is the Choate Varmint synthetic, not only is it wide and fairly flat, it has a removable bipod rail in it. Other than that, making one like Stimpylu32 did that he painted bright orange, or the www.gunstocksinc.com replacement stocks are the only choice.

Tim

http://www.riflestock.com/catalog_page.cfm?queries_index=index10&ProductCode=33&ProductSubCodeID=197&NewProduct=0
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline tuxdad

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2006, 02:58:54 AM »
Will have to check out stimplu32's stock and see what it looks like..

Thanks for the info on the bags guys.. It's GREATLY appreciated !!! ;D

Tux

Offline Cknerr

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2006, 04:03:33 AM »
if you go against the benchrest guys...this is what you are facing. One of the main rules concerns bags. They can not be connected. See the pic I attached for the correct set up. Adding a wider forend and all the other pointers will help. You will also have to spend some time at the range practicing and doing some serious load development.




Most clubs have a hunter division that might interest you. It allows you to shoot with what you have and not tangle with BR shooters head to head. If you can beat them with a target or two, or even "keep them honest", you will get all kinds of kudos. They will come up and tell you as much and heckle the tar out of the guys you beat. I have a 222 I do that with some time to time.

Competition is also one of the best ways to learn to shoot correctly. You are more aware of what is going on and way more critical of what you do. The other competitors will help you too. I don't know one that wouldn't hand you their rifle to try. When mine died in the middle of a relay, the fellow beside me lent me his and ammo to complete my target. I would do the same for whoever is next to me. BTW, we hate to be interrupted though when practising or load developing, I think that is where the "holier then though" reputation got started. My average scores for a day of group shooting (aggregate or average group size) for 25 shots in 5 shot strings at 100 yards and the same repeated at 200 yards is .28" for the day. That is not easy to maintain. Score shooting is the same except you are shooting at a bulls eye. I have never placed well, my best score was 497-23X out of a possible 500-50X.

If you are serious about shooting, get a set of wind flags. If you don't, you will never be able to properly adjust your loading or shooting. Some people claim they read the grass and tree movement, that will get you close -kinda/sorta. To really find out, you need to know what the wind is doing all the way down the range.  I attached a picture of them too, so you will know what I mean. Because I shoot competition, I also have a cross wind indicator (Windicator they are called) just to point out how bad the wind is. I still get caught occasionally...pull the trigger just as the flags move! Darn and shucks! (well ,maybe I say a little more)




If you want to try it, go out to the range and watch. It will be an education. Be careful, it is as addictive as Handi's! It just took one and your hooked. When you see what you can really do, improving your shooting - and knowing how to- is addictive.

Guess that is why I never stood a chance?!

Have fun,
Chris

Chris K'nerr
Atlanta Woodwright's Studio, Inc.
Acworth, Ga. 30101
678-770-4274
678-574-5522 (h)

Offline tuxdad

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2006, 05:00:10 AM »
Thanks for the info and pics Chris.. I have a feeling I'll be needing something for my elbow for sure... I've been checking out the ranges in my area on their wedsites and all of them have the concrete stations..

The clubs in my area don't allow wind flags, But I'll be getting out and practicing and working on my mil dots, for wind doping and hold overs..

From the looks of atleast the groundhog shoots, they all seem to be 5 shot group in the 6 to 9 minute time frames, is that the same in your neck of the woods, and in the competitons that you're involved in??

Again thanks for the info and pics :)..

Tux

BTW, my best groups off a good rest(without a rear bag) was .378 @ 100 yds

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2006, 01:38:39 PM »
if you go to www.long-range.com or to its sister site nationalmatch.us, you'll see that they chronograph their loads and that they don't consider 100 or 200 yds' to be an indicator of what a rifle will do at 'truly' long range.

i was blessed with an excellent sighting-in group at 50 yds' this past summer with a .223 putting three shots into less than 7/16".   the center-to-center spread was something like .213.   but that is not "an aggregate" of my shooting over a period of time; nor is it representative of the scores i'd get in competition at 600 yds' and more where the 'big dogs' run.

i love these rifles!   but they are not upgraded to the consistency that a bolt-action rifle.....properly worked-up.......is capable of delivering.

there are too many engineering drawbacks in the simple standing-breech/ two-piece stock design of our Handi's to allow the kind of consistency that a bolt-action rifle will deliver.

my sincere, studied opinion,

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline McLernon

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2006, 02:30:29 PM »
I agree a tip-up rifle does not have the potential of a bolt action rifle. But they are still interesting rifles to tune. And some of them shoot well beyond expectations.

McLernon

Offline tuxdad

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2006, 02:03:15 AM »
Thanks for your opinions guys, but STILL nothing wrong with testing your skills and your gun out ... For me it's all about the fun, and if I win any it's just an added bonus, and if I lose, it's a learning of a lesson... :)

Tux

Offline Cknerr

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2006, 11:29:50 AM »
You lose you learn. When you win it  just confirms what you did was correct for that day. Tomorrow it could be different.

Can't use wind flags? I have never heard of that. The rude surprises I have had with as many 5 flags for 200yds. doesn't bode well for not using any. That really is not good. What range has this rule?

You mentioned concrete benches and elbow pads. I use small leather bags to pad my bones. If not, I know I will bang a funny bone or with the weather as cold as it is freeze an elbow. Either way no fun. There is an added bonus in the bags have a small sand filled rim, this insures my elbow goes back to the same place each time and recoil won't push me around and change my position. There is not a lot of recoil with a 6PPC, but enough to certainly know it went off.  BTW, that is not my rifle in the pic. Don't know who's it is.

If you want to get serious, I would suggest checking out Sinclair International ( http://www.sinclairintl.com/index.html ).  They are not cheap, but have everything needed to shoot competition. The people there all shooters and if they do not specialize in what you are talking about, they will find someone on their staff who is to answer questions. They are all helpful to the guy just trying to figure out where the starting line is. Brownell's, Midway, Shooter's Corner, etc. also have some good equipment. They do not provide the advise Sinclair can with the upper end equipment. All the equipment I have gotten over the years works with all the rifles I have, except of course the dies and things specific for to a particular caliber. Even my competition scopes all fit hunting rifles and you better believe I use them for tuning. Can't take them into field though, 45X is a bit much. Well, you can see this can go on and on....and I would like to. One of the moderators might use me for a target though, so I think I will stop while I still can.

Best of luck, this could be a long slippery slope!

Chris
Chris K'nerr
Atlanta Woodwright's Studio, Inc.
Acworth, Ga. 30101
678-770-4274
678-574-5522 (h)

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2006, 11:51:16 AM »
I've been wondering are there any rifle matches or ppl out there who have put their NEF/H&R's up against some of these fancy guns, in competition ??

I've benn thinking of entering a few with mine, just to see how I do...

I know with my hornet, I'd open a few eyes, but not saying I'd win but it'd be fun to do it..

Tux

tux'

your hornet might impress somebody with how it compares against some other hunting rifles.   but if you look at www.6mmbr.com you'll see some seriously small groups at 600 yds' and more.    those rifles will "shoot inside of a Handi" in any serious competition.   it's just the nature of the physics involved in the shooting discipline.

on the other hand, if you're looking hard for your idea of 'fun', or if you're mad at your wallet, then get the money out for those entry fees and have at it.

either way i suspect you'll learn something!

take care, and good shooting to you,

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2006, 12:39:13 PM »
Be sure to check out www.midsouthshooterssupply.com for shooting supplies, their prices are great and shipping is less than many other sources, but the big benefit is they're a GBO sponsor and help keep this forum here for us!! ;) Please see the sponsor list on the GBO home page below.

Tim

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"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline tuxdad

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2006, 05:08:04 PM »
I'm looking forward to trying my hornet as well as my 308 at some competitions, but I'll not break the bank to do it... Right now its just for fun and to learn, and if it goes further then so be it..

Thanks for all the info and help guys..

Quick, I need to ask about the choates fore ends, how are they for bench rest shooting, will I still have to rest on the hinge for shooting?

I'll also be checking out the sponsor as well ... :)

Tux

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2006, 06:38:32 PM »
I haven't had great luck with a bipod on mine yet, but others have had great luck with them and like them a lot. Haven't shot it from a normal rest under the forend, I did my best shooting with the Premier rest under the hinge.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline tuxdad

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2006, 06:00:09 AM »
Nor have I... If nothing else I'll just get it bedded, and be done with it...

Tux

Offline Mac11700

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2006, 07:30:53 AM »


Funny thing about these rifles...Most folks wouldn't ever believe they can shoot as good as what some of our rifles shoot...and wouldn't never consider even trying...even informal matches..or just shooting them in a Hunter class......If I have a Handi...that can consistantly produce 1/4 groups...why wouldn't it be suitable to shoot agaisnt others in my class?..I know full well how difficult it is..and if I am campable...my rifle capable...then why not....? The answer is there is no reason for you not to......I can tell you this...for those of us that can shoot them this good...folks do take notice at the ranges... at least at the ones I frequent...Some folks haven't even heard of these little rifles...and when they see how good they shoot for me..and what they cost...it really interest them then...I gennerally tell them to come here for one of the largest support groups on the web...and many have...and have introduced younger hunters/shooters to the ranks...What I have found...as anyone who has shot anytype of BR shooting before is...your shooting technique and ability...will have just as much to do with how small your aggs are for the day than anything else...this of course is provided your rig is tuned and shooting proper.....and this holds true wither your shooting a $6000 metal stocked BR gun..or a $250 Handi......because a great shooter with a tuned great shooting Handi..is better than a lousy shooter with any other type of rifle....One just needs to practice...a-lot...and get them tuned properly...They won't all be 1/4" shooters...but a-lot of them can be...So...I say go for it...it's a good learning experiance..and your sure to make some new friends along the way..

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline pascalp

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2006, 12:53:49 PM »
Never tested farther than 50y, but a real tack driver with cast bullets.
Nice and complete set-up, Some eyes will open really widely if I enter a match with my 30-30.


Not a chance against this kind of Long Range BR:


But if the goals are:
. Fun while seriously shooting.
. Get the widest opened eyes.
I've a chance  :D

Offline tuxdad

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2006, 05:02:12 PM »
Never tested farther than 50y, but a real tack driver with cast bullets.
Nice and complete set-up, Some eyes will open really widely if I enter a match with my 30-30.


Not a chance against this kind of Long Range BR:


But if the goals are:
. Fun while seriously shooting.
. Get the widest opened eyes.
I've a chance  :D


Is that what I think it is on the end of that H&R ????? A surpressed rig!?!?! If so, how much did it cost, and hows it shoot?? I was looking at a 308 with a good muzzle break but was gonna have to wait until tax time to possibly get it...

Both rigs are very nice, btw !!

Tux

Offline Mac11700

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2006, 06:43:56 PM »


His rig is legal in his country..

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2006, 07:23:26 PM »
Pascal is a Frenchman, suppressors are legal in most of the world!! ;)  Here's some info on suppressors here in the US..

Tim

http://www.srtarms.com/legalities.htm

http://www.srtarms.com/
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Offline tuxdad

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Re: H&R'S and NEF'S in competitions ??
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2006, 03:29:52 AM »
Welp, those are WAYY outta my budget range  :D... I'll just stick with my H&R's the way they are...lol ;D

Thanks for the link Quick !!

Tux