Author Topic: Follow-up on Lee dies and the 7.5x55 (Read 1592 times)

RaySendero · « **on:** December 10, 2006, 02:39:44 AM »

Here's a link to the original thread for those just now reading - http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,105251.0.html

I've been reloading for the 7.5x55 for 3 years now using Lee dies. My reload uses Graf cases, CCI 200 LR primers, Sierra 165 GameKings over IMR-4350 powder.

My measurements of the resized case vs the fired cases are as follows:

Case Head Diameter = 0.495" vs 0.495"
Case Lower Body Diam. = 0.497" vs 0.499"
Case Upper Body Diam. = 0.460" vs 0.476"
Case Neck Diameter = 0.337" vs 0.342"
Case Overall Length = 2.181" vs 2.172"
Case Length to Neck = 1.861" vs 1.865"

Help me to understand any problems using this Lee die to full length size and reload my 7.5x55. I think I understand from the previuos thread that Lee is going to change their specs on the full length resize die.

jgalar · « **Reply #1 on:** December 10, 2006, 04:09:22 AM »

I'll try to summarize the previous 2 threads into this one. Here are the claims...

The K31 has an oversize chamber. All dies except redding bring the brass back to 7.5x55 specs, but not to the specs of the K31 chamber. You can't necksize for the K31 for some reason. There is something wrong (??) with reloading Berden primed cases. People shouldn't put out false info on the internet. If you don't load using a certain die your loads are unsafe and may or may not shoot. YOUR reloading techniques are not safe. Your mother wears combat boots - If I had a dog as ugly as you I would....

I think everyone needs to chill and go to this site to get back into the season' spirit

http://www.dontshootyoureyeout.com/

jerkface11 · « **Reply #2 on:** December 10, 2006, 07:51:26 AM »

Quote from: jgalar on December 10, 2006, 04:09:22 AM

I'll try to summarize the previous 2 threads into this one. Here are the claims...

The K31 has an oversize chamber. All dies except redding bring the brass back to 7.5x55 specs, but not to the specs of the K31 chamber. You can't necksize for the K31 for some reason. There is something wrong (??) with reloading Berden primed cases. People shouldn't put out false info on the internet. If you don't load using a certain die your loads are unsafe and may or may not shoot. YOUR reloading techniques are not safe. Your mother wears combat boots - If I had a dog as ugly as you I would....

I think everyone needs to chill and go to this site to get back into the season' spirit

http://www.dontshootyoureyeout.com/

The reason you can't necksize for a k31 is the same as why you can't necksize for an AR15 or a remington 7400. Sure you might get it to work sometimes but it will lock the gun up sometimes too. Trust me opening a locked up k31 is neither easy nor fun.

jh45gun · « **Reply #3 on:** December 10, 2006, 09:33:06 AM »

Jerkface, too many folks are necksizing successfully to say it will not work. Those that are doing so I suspect are not hot rodding their ammo. I would suspect that HOT Loads would cause problems with neck sizing but not loads that are reasonable in power.

RaySendero · « **Reply #4 on:** December 10, 2006, 01:51:37 PM »

Quote from: jerkface11 on December 10, 2006, 07:51:26 AM

The reason you can't necksize for a k31 is the same as why you can't necksize for an AR15 or a remington 7400. Sure you might get it to work sometimes but it will lock the gun up sometimes too. Trust me opening a locked up k31 is neither easy nor fun.

That's ashame, as I neck size for my other bolt actions! My plan all along was to neck size as soon as I could get one!

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #5 on:** December 10, 2006, 02:14:02 PM »

Quote from: RaySendero on December 10, 2006, 01:51:37 PM

Quote from: jerkface11 on December 10, 2006, 07:51:26 AM
The reason you can't necksize for a k31 is the same as why you can't necksize for an AR15 or a remington 7400. Sure you might get it to work sometimes but it will lock the gun up sometimes too. Trust me opening a locked up k31 is neither easy nor fun.

That's ashame, as I neck size for my other bolt actions! My plan all along was to neck size as soon as I could get the die! Guess that's why no onebody offered one.

Think of it like this, the straight pull bolt action of the K31 is exactly like a semiauto in that the only mechanical force chambering the cartrige is the forward inerta of the bolt. Completely unlike a traditional bolt action where you have the quite powerfull chambering force generated by the locking lugs camming closed in thier raceways. So you have no mechanical advantage with the k31 to chamber a round.

Neck sizing dies-these only size the neck of the case, so are less stressful on the rest of the case. These neck sized only cases will only work reliably in bolt action or single shot rifles due to the fact that since the body of the case has not been sized, they will not usually chamber properly.

It boils down to the fact that the swiss straight pull action has almost NOTHING in common with a conventonal bolt action. It is more of a manually operated semiautomatic or a rear slide action rifle and requires the same loading techniques.

jh45gun · « **Reply #6 on:** December 10, 2006, 02:19:13 PM »

Quote from: RaySendero on December 10, 2006, 01:51:37 PM

Quote from: jerkface11 on December 10, 2006, 07:51:26 AM
The reason you can't necksize for a k31 is the same as why you can't necksize for an AR15 or a remington 7400. Sure you might get it to work sometimes but it will lock the gun up sometimes too. Trust me opening a locked up k31 is neither easy nor fun.

That's ashame, as I neck size for my other bolt actions! My plan all along was to neck size as soon as I could get the die! Guess that's why no onebody offered one.

Ray I have seen lots of folks saying they are neck sizing and some are using the Lee Collet dies. Do not let a few scare you off of this just because they insist the redding die is the only way to go there are other options. From your target I would say your doing something right!

Krochus if your fired brass fits and ejects easy from the chamber I see no reason why you cannot neck size it if that is what a person wants to do.

jh45gun · « **Reply #7 on:** December 10, 2006, 02:27:23 PM »

These neck sized only cases will only work reliably in bolt action or single shot rifles due to the fact that since the body of the case has not been sized, they will not usually chamber properly.

Any shingle shot I have shot like a Rolling block or a falling block what ever there is no camming action so the ammo has to fit the chamber and chamber with ease. So if you say they will work in a single shot then they should work in a straight pull.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #8 on:** December 10, 2006, 02:30:36 PM »

Quote

Krochus if your fired brass fits and ejects easy from the chamber I see no reason why you cannot neck size it if that is what a person wants to do.

What part of IT DOESN'T FIT can't you understand?? If your cases fit you haven't properly fireformed them yet. How many firings do your cases have on them??? Have you gone to the range only to discover that 2 out of 3 rounds will not fully chamber?? I have.

Brass ejects from an AR15 too but you'ed better not try neck sizing unless you like slam fires and out of battery firings.

There are 2 kinds of 7.5x55 realoaders, those who neck size cases with lee dies and those who have done it and given up on it and now FL resize everything.

Look at how far the charging handle seats forward on your k31 with an empty chamber. Now check out how far forward it goes with some neck sized cases you might be horrified at what you see; I know I was.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #9 on:** December 10, 2006, 02:33:00 PM »

Quote from: jh45gun on December 10, 2006, 02:27:23 PM

These neck sized only cases will only work reliably in bolt action or single shot rifles due to the fact that since the body of the case has not been sized, they will not usually chamber properly.

Any shingle shot I have shot like a Rolling block or a falling block what ever there is no camming action so the ammo has to fit the chamber and chamber with ease. So if you say they will work in a single shot then they should work in a straight pull.

BUT you do have a "camming action" On certian single shots. The breach block on a falling block rifle acts as a wedge to drive the case into the chamber fully. The closing of the barrel on a break action rifle accomplishes the same thing only in reverse.

I don't think you'ed want to neck size for a rolling block.

jh45gun · « **Reply #10 on:** December 10, 2006, 05:05:33 PM »

AGAIN my fired cases fit all the way into my chamber on my Roller. I do not neck size but I cannot see why if the case fits before you neck size it would not after as long as you do not have a bulged neck?

?

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #11 on:** December 10, 2006, 05:13:49 PM »

Quote from: jh45gun on December 10, 2006, 05:05:33 PM

AGAIN my fired cases fit all the way into my chamber on my Roller. I do not neck size but I cannot see why if the case fits before you neck size it would not after as long as you do not have a bulged neck??

Quote

Neck-sizing only is fine if your chamber is concentric, the bolt face is square to the chamber axis, and you keep your loads below about 40,000 c.u.p.. Load to full power and you'll eventually discover that F.L. sizing is needed.

Straight from Parashooter

Quote

I have never had any luck neck sizing with the K-31 though it works fine on the 89/96/11

klempner

Quote

I have a Lee Collet die I've been using for quite a while. When neck sizing I alternate between full-power and very mild loads with a batch of brass. Loading full-power twice in sucession results in cases stuck in the chamber after firing. Reloading with a mild load load after a heavy one in the same case prevents the stuck brass syndrome.

Cuche

Quote

I just full size for the K31. Having a shell stuck at the range, or worse yet while hunting, is just more work then it's worth. And I full size the Remington 760 ammo for the same reason. You really don't get a lot of leverage with these straight pull actions.

Galag

YOUR cases have only been partially fireformed at this point

Quote

Now I have loaded and fired my brass once but have not reloaded it yet

Do what you want but please be big enough to come back here and tell us when you have some impossible to chamber rounds. Me as well as others have tried to save you some future trouble and you choose to ignore us and belittle us for it, so please by all means proceede.

I'm done with trying to save you some trouble, I hope you have a bullet puller.

jh45gun · « **Reply #12 on:** December 10, 2006, 07:36:23 PM »

OK first of all I do not neck size so I cannot see having a problem in the future. I do however feel in some cases it will work. As Para stated under 40,000 cup so those shooting moderate loads or cast loads should not have a problem which if you look back I have been saying all along as I do not hot rod my loads for any caliber. I do not consider just because I disagree with some of your post or some of the others that insist only redding dies work that I am belittleing you or anyone else. What gave you that idea. You know on these forums we all do not agree on any subject that is part of the whole deal. I am not the only one who has disagreed with you or any of the others that insist that neck sizing does not work or Redding is the ONLY die that you can use in the K31. Others post tell me different including some of parashooters info which I agree with and you must too to quote him. From the beginning of this arguement I have stated moderate loadings and said if you shoot a load that gets stuck in the chamber it is too hot. Look back and see!

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #13 on:** December 11, 2006, 12:18:22 AM »

Quote

if you shoot a load that gets stuck in the chamber it is too hot. Look back and see!

IT may be diffrent where you come from but a 150grn fmj at 2500 fps and a 125grn Ballistic tip at 2700 fps isn't too hot. Enjoy your straight pull 30-30

jh45gun · « **Reply #14 on:** December 11, 2006, 10:39:35 AM »

So now we have to be sarcastic Eh! I have killed deer with 1800 fps cast loads just as dead with one shot as I would with a full power 06 or 308. Same with my Swede shooting at 2400 fps. You do not have to have loads at the top end of the scale to kill cleanly with. And what is wrong with the 30/30 I wish I had a dollar for every deer killed with that cartridge! If I want to keep my loads mild I see nothing wrong with that. First of all milder loads are easier on the barrel and more enjoyable to shoot and just as accurate in a lot of cases.

acloco · « **Reply #15 on:** December 11, 2006, 10:58:41 AM »

Quote from: jh45gun on December 11, 2006, 10:39:35 AM

So now we have to be sarcastic Eh! I have killed deer with 1800 fps cast loads just as dead with one shot as I would with a full power 06 or 308. Same with my Swede shooting at 2400 fps. You do not have to have loads at the top end of the scale to kill cleanly with. And what is wrong with the 30/30 I wish I had a dollar for every deer killed with that cartridge! If I want to keep my loads mild I see nothing wrong with that. First of all milder loads are easier on the barrel and more enjoyable to shoot and just as accurate in a lot of cases.

The K31 has an oversize chamber. All dies except redding bring the brass back to 7.5x55 specs, but not to the specs of the K31 chamber. You can't necksize for the K31 for some reason. There is something wrong (??) with reloading Berden primed cases. People shouldn't put out false info on the internet. If you don't load using a certain die your loads are unsafe and may or may not shoot. YOUR reloading techniques are not safe. Your mother wears combat boots - If I had a dog as ugly as you I would....

..and you are not being sarcasstic?

Just because somebody does not agree with you, does not make them wrong.

Go ahead, load away.

I will be shooting all of my K31's at 300/400/500/600/700/800 yards, with original sights.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #16 on:** December 11, 2006, 11:38:31 AM »

Quote

So now we have to be sarcastic Eh!

YOU"RE DANG RIGHT especally with statments like this.

Quote

if you shoot a load that gets stuck in the chamber it is too hot. Look back and see!

You have no idea whatsoever what's inside of my loading logbook. Like everything else in this topic you've posted it's based on a bunch of uniformed assumptions in a vain attempt to somehow negate the facts and reasons me and everybody else been giving you not to neck size.

I'm thorough with you. Good day sir!

P.S. If you want to shoot those teeny little 200 and 300yd groups you're going to have to get that bullet to the target in a timely fashon, 2000FPS ain't gonna cut it.

jh45gun · « **Reply #17 on:** December 11, 2006, 03:21:01 PM »

LOL talk about getting your shorts in a wad first of all I DO NOT NECK SIZE. Probably will not but I can see how it would work with milder loads which is what my point was. Since I do not neck size my loads will work anyway. Second of ALL, LEE and RCBS DIES will work though yea they may work the brass more my problem and those that use them so I cannot see what your problem is there. Third, I hunt in areas that a 100 yards is a long shot. I have no desire to do a lot of paper punching at long distances if that is your bag great. My comments about getting a case stuck in the chamber was right if it gets stuck it is too hot and that goes for neck sizing and full length sizing. Last of all C.E. Harris followed J. R. Mattern's work on shooting cast bullets in milsurp rifles his 200 Yard load is 16 grains of 2400 for around 1500 fps. His 600 yard load was 18 to 20 grains of 2400 and several other powders like 4198 or RL7 or 4895 for fps of 1800 to 2000. 600 yards using a mild cast bullet load so yea I think that I do not have to hot rod my guns to shoot far and you do not need a heavy load to kill a piece of paper. LOL So ridicule mild loads it is documented in print and you can ask any one that shoots cast loads about shooting at a distance for target shooting AND COMPETITION. Gee how about 1000 yards with a 45/70 at 1400 FPS and and under?

Point is you do not need high power loads to shoot at fairly long distances and do it accurately. So while I do not have an interest to shoot long ranges I could if I wanted to with loads in the 2000 FPS class. For your info find a copy of the 1994 Handloaders Digest and look for C.E Harris's article " Cast Bullets Are Best in Military Surplus Rifles" So who is basing info on uninformed assumptions now??? What I have said this whole thread will stand up wether you believe in it or not.

jack19512 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 11, 2006, 03:30:35 PM »

Merry CHRISTmas everyone. Got my 4000 Berdan primers today. I am a happy camper.

jgalar · « **Reply #19 on:** December 11, 2006, 05:13:11 PM »

16 grains of 2400, neck sized cases and the cast bullet seated out to engrave the rifling shoots very well in my K31s.

How much did those primers cost including hazmat and shipping?

jack19512 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 11, 2006, 05:25:12 PM »

Quote from: jgalar on December 11, 2006, 05:13:11 PM

How much did those primers cost including hazmat and shipping?

Total cost to my door was $112.00.

jh45gun · « **Reply #21 on:** December 11, 2006, 05:49:12 PM »

Congrats on finding the primers Jack.

jh45gun · « **Reply #22 on:** December 11, 2006, 05:52:26 PM »

Quote from: jgalar on December 11, 2006, 05:13:11 PM

16 grains of 2400, neck sized cases and the cast bullet seated out to engrave the rifling shoots very well in my K31s.

How much did those primers cost including hazmat and shipping?

Yea that 16 grains of 2400 is a pretty good load. I have used 18 grains in a 308 Encore with a cast bullet and took a buck and a doe with it.

jgalar · « **Reply #23 on:** December 12, 2006, 02:26:03 AM »

$112 for 4000 isn't a bad price. I never shoot surplus ammo so I never have any Berden primed brass. Glad you found some more...

jack19512 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 12, 2006, 09:27:28 AM »

I like reloading the Swiss 7.5X55 Berdan primed cases and I have a lot of the 8mm Berdan primed surplus brass cases that I have never been able to reload because I was afraid I would run out of the Berdan primers and I saved what Berdan primers I had for the Swiss 7.5X55. Now I can reload the 8mm cases too.

I have a lot of the 8mm boxer primed brass but I refuse to let the Berdan primed brass go to waste. I may be a little odd in my thinking but for me reloading means reloading. Reloading to me doesn't mean you take the easy way out and waste perfectly good reloading components.

jh45gun · « **Reply #25 on:** December 12, 2006, 10:18:52 AM »

Quote from: jack19512 on December 12, 2006, 09:27:28 AM

I like reloading the Swiss 7.5X55 Berdan primed cases and I have a lot of the 8mm Berdan primed surplus brass cases that I have never been able to reload because I was afraid I would run out of the Berdan primers and I saved what Berdan primers I had for the Swiss 7.5X55. Now I can reload the 8mm cases too.

I have a lot of the 8mm boxer primed brass but I refuse to let the Berdan primed brass go to waste. I may be a little odd in my thinking but for me reloading means reloading. Reloading to me doesn't mean you take the easy way out and waste perfectly good reloading components.

Hey if ya got the means to do it nothing odd about that. In one of Elmer Keith's books he talks about reloading berdan primered cartridges.