Author Topic: 25-06 accuracy (Read 20157 times)

Grasshopper · « **on:** December 14, 2006, 02:03:04 PM »

Concerning the accuracy of my new tc encore 25-06 26" heavy barrel. After trying Remington 100 grain factory loads and numerous hand loads I have come to the conclusion that something is wrong with this gun.
The best I could do with the Remington factory loads is 2.6" groups at 100 yds. The best I could get after meticulously reloading Sierra 117 gr. btsp with 50 gr. of IMR 4831 is 1.7" groups. After numerous loads with Hornady 87 gr. sp the best I could do is 58 gr. of 4831 1.6" groups.
Do you think I would get any satisfaction from t/c concerning barrel replacement? The gun is still under warranty.
What is the best accuracy I can expect from this gun without spending a lot of money?
What is the #1 thing I could do to improve the accuracy(already floated the barrel)?

kudzu · « **Reply #1 on:** December 14, 2006, 02:58:13 PM »

My 25-06 Encore PH shoots the 117 speer hot cores very well. (9/16 3 shot group at 100 yards). This is all factory, I have done nothing to mine other than a lighter trigger spring. Ammo is also fac. loaded by fed.
Have you tried just the one hand load, if so adjust powder up/down and see if groups tighten. You may have to play with several powders/bullets to find the right combo. After this season, I am going to work up a 110 accubond load.

Good luck, DM

bearfat · « **Reply #2 on:** December 14, 2006, 03:36:32 PM »

I'll be interested in others response since I had similiar dismal results with my 25-06 although it is not a TC Encore. I've loaded up fantastic .223 and 30-06 loads but this gun which is my most expensive has let me down.

The only thing I can conclude is we have to keep searching for the perfect load. I have got it down to 1.25" using a Hornady 120 gr bullet and 4350 powder. I even got David Tubbs bore polishing kit which required a time consuming loading of special coated bullets and meticulous cleaning after every five fired rounds. A timney trigger, a bull barrel, a free floating sniper stock, and an expensive Schmidt and Bender scope to top it off...and it shoots no better than my cheapest Rem .223 ADL poor mans rifle.

And to make matters worse all I hear is glowing reports from others how their 25-06's can shoot the neck off of a beer bottle at 300 yards.

I did have a buddy once that had to try 80 plus variations of powder, bullets, primers, and brass to get that magic one inch group out of one particular rifle.

The only advice I have is to keep trying different bullets like dancoman says. I've tried 90, 100, 117, and 120 gr bullets. I stuck with 4350 and 3031 powder but I think many were saying RL19? and 4895? were the cat's meow.

Believe me I almost wanted to send mine back too.

Grasshopper · « **Reply #3 on:** December 15, 2006, 04:48:18 AM »

Thanks for your reply. Dancoman, what do you mean by one hand load? Where did you find a lighter trigger spring?
I have tried many different powder charges with IMR 4831 in this gun. Years ago I had a Winchester 25-06 that shot basically the same. In the Winchester I tried several different faster burning powders and ended up with IMR 4831 for giving me the best accuracy. I have not tried slower burning powders.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks again

Davemuzz · « **Reply #4 on:** December 15, 2006, 05:01:26 AM »

You may already have done this, but just check to make sure that when you lock up the barrel, make sure that no part of the forarm is touching the frame.

You either want to be able to see daylight between the frame and the forarm, or be able to freely slide a thick piece of paper between both sides of the forarm\frame.

I filed away the forarm on my new 223 prohunter plastic forarm and my groups (along with the correct load) can now be covered with a quarter at 100 yards.

Betweed the barrel float AND the forarm filing, the stringing and circular patterns went away.

I hope this helps.

Dave

kudzu · « **Reply #5 on:** December 15, 2006, 06:44:15 AM »

Sorry GH, I misread and thought that you had only tried the one handload. (I must start reading more carfully LOL).

As for the spring kits - www.bellmtcs.com

I also reccomend getting the pliers that come with some of the kits. with the pliers you can change springs in about 5 min.

Good Luck, DM

ps- reading where RL22 and 7828 has worked great for the 25-06

kudzu · « **Reply #6 on:** December 15, 2006, 06:52:04 AM »

OK , What am I missing here with the'' censored word".
Has there been a problem that needs to be addressed.
There's no saftey concerns with the censored springs are there ?

I understand if it's an advertizing thing, however if it's a safty thing let's open it up.
thanks, DM

Messer · « **Reply #7 on:** December 15, 2006, 07:16:04 AM »

I don't think it's a safety thing - just a personal thing between Graybeard and Mike B. - seems silly to me.

go to www.(the thing that rings in the church steeple)mtcs.com

Mike B. is one the most opinionated guys around, but he does know a few things. Some like him, some don't.

Cheers,
Bob S.

Keith L · « **Reply #8 on:** December 15, 2006, 08:48:18 AM »

"I don't think it's a safety thing - just a personal thing between Graybeard and Mike B. - seems silly to me"

GB is our host here, and his rules are the ones that this site is governed by. Kind of like setting the rules for the language in the living room. That is the right of the home owner, no one else. Those of us who enjoy the site and want to keep using it don't think it silly. If you do you may want to consider where you spend your time.

Messer · « **Reply #9 on:** December 15, 2006, 10:00:43 AM »

No need to threaten anyone - and I agee that GB has the right to do as he pleases here. But the question was asked, and the sharing of information is a good thing IMO. What started the friction between GB & MB is a mystery to most people I see posting about it - and frankly, I don't really care. That's between them. If the problem started over a woman, or worse yet, a motorcycle, I understand.

If someone asks a question I can help with, I'll share the info - that's just me.

Take care,
Bob S.

Keith L · « **Reply #10 on:** December 15, 2006, 11:06:26 AM »

No threat intended. Just a suggestion. If you think GBs ways are silly then you may not fit here. Easy as that. What you do with it is your business.

Grasshopper · « **Reply #11 on:** December 15, 2006, 12:39:29 PM »

Thanks for the ideas Dave M. I floated the barrel but did not check to see if the forearm was rubbing on the frame. DM it will be interesting to know what you find out about rl22 and 7828. Also, I got the clue on where to locate the spring. Thanks

Rudy · « **Reply #12 on:** December 16, 2006, 09:11:29 AM »

Grasshopper, I had problems with a .45 muzzleloader barrel when I got it. I contacted TC and sent the barrel to them. They sent me a new barrel and it shoots great. I think an email to customer service at TC would be a good thing to do. They would probably have you send it to them and they would test it.

BobT · « **Reply #13 on:** December 16, 2006, 04:34:41 PM »

Grasshopper,
I had mediocre results with my .25/06 barrel as well, the Remington factory stuff (100gr.) shot as well as anything else in my rifle. I guess a lot of folks are happy with this sort of accuracy but I think a .25/06 should be capable of much better accuracy. My .209X50 barrel will go under an inch on the same receiver all day long as long as I keep it clean. I just traded mine off for another barrel.

Grasshopper · « **Reply #14 on:** December 17, 2006, 12:10:33 PM »

I had a chance to shoot this weekend after I floated the forearm/frame. I had positive results with my average group shrinking to 1.2". This is probably the best I can hope for until I lighten the trigger and get a better rest. Thanks again GH

donzov · « **Reply #15 on:** December 19, 2006, 02:05:58 PM »

Grasshopper, I don't have an encore in 25-06 but I do have a ruger 1-V in 25-06 and I can tell you just keep at it, the 25-06 can be extremely accurrate.
For starters, is the barrell even broken in yet? I had to put 100 rounds through mine before it settled in and that also meant alot of cleaning about every 5 shots.
Next, I do alot of case preparation. I use resized .270 cases, trim them, fireform them then anneal the casemouths, deburr the flashholes and only necksize after that. Use caution and make sure that a bullet will fit loosely in a fired casemouth! If it won't, you'll have to turn the necks or go back to 25-06 brass.
My loads all use reloader 22 for 100 and 117 grain Sierra bullets and my groups are all under 1 inch.
I have three contenders and 23 barrels, 2 of which are carbines and have had some problems and questions, many of which were solved by the guy who sells the springs. He's more than happy to help anyone. He has a very good article on necksizeing for the encore and contender that you may like.
Good luck, Donzov

thelaw · « **Reply #16 on:** December 20, 2006, 10:47:32 AM »

try these loads:

hornady 120gr. HP with H4831SC. max load in my rifle is 54.0g with 1" or less groups and 3040fps
nosler 110gr. AB with H4350. max load in my rifle is 52.0g with 1" or less groups and 3225fps.

my rifle has the factory 26" heavy barrel. i've also floated the barrel with washers and a little sand paper.

Bullseye · « **Reply #17 on:** December 20, 2006, 03:46:52 PM »

Last two groups with my 25-06 were 5 shots in 1 1/4" and 6 shots in 1 3/8" at 100 yards.

It is a factory barrel.. The only thing I did to it was sand the forearm in the inside till I could run a dollar bill between the barrel and the forearm. I also sand the ears on all my forearms so they do not contact the frame. Also put a Trapper Spring Kit trigger spring in it.

I use IMR4831 and 100 grain Hornady SP.

Mine does not like the lighter bullets down in the 85 grain range.

I have never fooled with changing the powder weight with this gun or the accuracy could be better. I was happy with the initial results so never did much load development.

I have recently bought some magnum primers to try since this powder is so slow, but have not tested it yet.

Grasshopper · « **Reply #18 on:** December 21, 2006, 07:07:29 AM »

donzov,
Yes, the barrel was properly broke in. I do not get in to resizing 270 cases but I do neck size the 25/06 cases. I am finding that I need to full length resize after every 3 or 4 loads. Have you had similar results? I'm very interested in trying RL22. Do you feel that RL22 is better suited for this caliber than IMR 4831? Do you have any experience with IMR 4831? Thanks, GH

Bullseye · « **Reply #19 on:** December 21, 2006, 01:41:45 PM »

Other powders like RL22 might work good. 4831 was the powder that brought the 25-06 to life. The faster burning powders before it would not let it acheive it true potential. I would assume that other powders in this burn speed range would also acheive good results.

cattrapper · « **Reply #20 on:** December 31, 2006, 06:14:17 AM »

i have a 25.06 encore barrell an i load 52.2 grains of IMR 4350 with a 85 grain nosler BT it will shoot clover leafs at 100 yards all day long i have a friend that has the same barrel an it shoots it better than mine an then 2 other buddies that i load for 1with a savage an the other with a ruger 25.06s shoot the same load just as good hope this helps.

Greenhunter · « **Reply #21 on:** January 03, 2007, 07:29:40 PM »

one other thing you may want to try for about $10 is a SIMS resonator that fit over the barrel and is supposed to tone down the hamonic vibrations of your barrel during the shot. it works a lot like the adjustable muzzle brake that Winchester and Browning put on some of their rifles.

donzov · « **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2007, 02:21:59 PM »

Grasshopper, Sorry I didn't reply sooner but the holidays and stuff, you know.
The first loads I tried were with 75 grain hornady Hp's and 53.5 grains of IMR 4350, they were fast but inaccurate. Then 100 grain speer BTSP's and 53.5 grains of H4831SC, groups got a little smaller. Then 120 grain speer BTSP's and 39.5 grains of varget, no change. Then I decided to spend a little more and go to sierra's. First I tried the 100 grain matchkings with 52.6 grains of RE 22 and federal 210M primers, bam, that was it, 1.5 inch groups but they seemed a little slow and the SD was 18. So I went to the same thing but with 55.8 grains of RE 22 and got my first sub 1 inch group and a SD of 7.
I've concluded that my rifle likes heavier bullets and the 25-06 likes to be charged to about 90 percent of case capacity. I think that the results would be the same with the sierra pro hunter and gameking bullets.
I like to reload almost as much as I enjoy shooting so I reform cases. Yes, I do full length size from time to time but mostly just necksize. As I mentioned before MB the spring guy (you know who) has an excellent article on sizing for the contender and encore.
Donzov

ourway77 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 07, 2007, 03:13:46 AM »

I use 100 grain Speer Hp bullets with a hearty dose of 4831 or 4350. One thing if you are making 25-06 out of 270 or 30-06 brass you want to think of turning the necks on your cases, your cases may have high sides on them which will cause erratic groups. Not always the case but something to think about. I always buy new brass for my hunting loads. Yes if all fails call Thompson they may want you to return the barrel for replacement, outstanding folks to deal with. Lou

Grasshopper · « **Reply #24 on:** January 07, 2007, 06:50:57 AM »

I also tried the lighter 75 gr. Hp with no luck. I also switched from 117 gr. Hornadys to 117 gr. Sierra with better results (1.2" groups @ 100 yds). I haven't given up completely on the Hornady 87 gr. sp with my group avg. at 1.4" .Thinking about switching to the Nosler 85 gr. bt and possibly a faster burning powder such as 4350. Although I would probably sacrifice speed for accuracy with this load. My main thing now is to just make it to the rifle range to try out my latest trigger spring adjustments. With close to 3" of rain and 15" of snow on top of that it's been kinda hard to get anywhere here in SW Kansas.
GH

ihookem · « **Reply #25 on:** January 25, 2007, 03:39:13 PM »

The 25-06 is the finickiest caliber out there I think. It really needs the slowest burning powder in the hunting bullets. Too much powder in an 06 case and too little hole for the 25 caliber neck. I would use very slow powder , load up to max and load down quite a bit too. I have allways heard 25-06 was fussy. It really is a lot like a magnum.

nomosendero · « **Reply #26 on:** January 25, 2007, 05:58:53 PM »

Quote from: ihookem on January 25, 2007, 03:39:13 PM

The 25-06 is the finickiest caliber out there I think. It really needs the slowest burning powder in the hunting bullets. Too much powder in an 06 case and too little hole for the 25 caliber neck. I would use very slow powder , load up to max and load down quite a bit too. I have allways heard 25-06 was fussy. It really is a lot like a magnum.

I have "heard" that too, but then again I actually load for the round & I KNOW better. At least if the rifle is set up properly.I have had stellar results with RL25 with 115gr & heavier. RL22 is great for 100-115gr & Rl19 for the 85 gr. & H4831 for 85-115gr.

Grasshopper · « **Reply #27 on:** January 26, 2007, 03:56:55 PM »

That is truly amazing. Just 3 days ago after messing around with various powders for over a month and almost ready to throw the gun in the trash I decided to try a slower burning powder for the 75 gr. Sierra and the 85 gr. Nosler. By slow I mean RL22. First I consulted an Alliant rep. and he said just add a grain on both ends and be very aware of pressure signs. The initial results are fantastic 75 gr. Sierra with 59 gr. of RL22 = .67" 3 shot group at 100 yards. I plan on cronographing that load tomorrow before I try 60 or 61 grs. I haven't worked on the 85 grainer yet. As for the heavier bullets I am trying the 117 gr. Sierra btsp with RL22 for an average group of 1.65". RL25 is on my list for that bullet.
I just want to say THANK YOU ihookem and nomosendero for confirming my thoughts on slower powders.
What are the pros and cons of using slower burning powders?
Why don't any of the reloading manuals give recommendations for this type load?
Thanks again, GH

Encore Rifle $500.00
Bullets, brass and powder $150.00
Developing a load for a 25/06. PRICELESS
Just had to throw that in.

Grasshopper · « **Reply #28 on:** January 29, 2007, 12:08:56 PM »

I take that last statement back. Hodgden list Retumbo for the 117 and 120 gr. bullets and H 1000 for the lighter bullets.
Is Retumbo any good?
GH

kudzu · « **Reply #29 on:** January 29, 2007, 12:20:21 PM »

They all good- IF THEY WORK.
Retumbo was put out as a big mag. powder. Know several that have great luck with it with the utra mags. Don't know anyone using for 25-06, not saying that it won't work. It's a slower powder, so say with a 26-28 inch barrel, may be worth a try. I saw a good load with RL22 somewhere. If I can find again I will post, but you know how it is, what works for one doesn't another.

good luck, DM