Lighter bullets: give me your feedback

[DGrig]

Just read an article on the on-line edition of Handgun Hunter magazine on hunting with lighter bullets (see link below).  The author suggests and researches the effectiveness of 180 gr bullets for 44 mag.  The main reason for opting for a lighter bullet is less recoil which often translates into greater accuracy.  I have been using 240 Hornady XTPs and thinking of trying the 180 gr version of the same bullet for deer from my Ruger SRH.  I like the idea of less recoil and if that means greater accuracy, AND is still effective on the animal I am all for it.  I have always put a priority on shot placement asTHE most important factor in the effectiveness of a shot and so believe that many hunter use heavier projectiles than they need.  Thoughts....

http://www.handgunhunt.com/feature/s15/index.html

[John R.]

I would stay with the heavier bullets especially on elk. I would also look into 280 gr. to 320 gr. Hard Cast for your 44 Mag.

[Graybeard]

I tried a 180 grain in .44 magnum ONCE. It didn't even exit on a broadside lung shot. I've not fired one on big game since and likely never will. I see no reason to use less than a 240 on deer really but for sure would drop no lower than the various 200/210 grain options. If you want or need less recoil use a cast bullet at lower velocity.

[Lone Star]

What most shooters seem to forget is that bullet construction is often of greater importance than bullet weight.  This is so obviously the case with the history of 180-grain .429" bullets.  Lee Jurras introduced SuperVel ammo in the 1960s and his most popular .44 Mag loading was the 180-grain.  It gave high velocity, but it also gave suprising penetration.  Lee wrote an article explaining why - the 180-grain bullet was not made to expand.  It had a hard lead core and thick jacket so it had minimal deformation in the animal, but it killed well just as a flat-pointed hard cast bullet kills well.   Both Lee and JD Jones hunted extensively with it and this light high velocity bullet gave them all the penetration necessary on all NA game excluding brown bear.  They should know.

The closest bullet today to the old SuperVel 180 is probably the Sierra 180 JHC.  It is not as tough as the original Sierra 180 HP, but it is much tougher than the Hornady 180 XTP.  It is the bullet I would use if I wanted to shoot a 180 on game.  But I do not, preferring more hunting traditional weights.  Even some 240-grain bullets are too soft for large game and a tougher 200-grainer will perform better.   Always consider bullet construction along with weight, and don't assume that just because a bullet is heavier it is automatically better.   

.

[Catfish]

What Lone Star said is exactly right about bullet preformance and construction. The 180 gr. Serrias are no good for deer though. I shot 1 deer with them. A small deer at abt 10 yrds. The first shot was a perfect heart shot, but had to go through the frount shoulder at the angle I was shooting. The bullet lacked abt. 3 in. of getting to the heart though and it took a second shot through the chest to kill it, and that was with a Ruger SBH. My favorite bullet for deer is the 240 gr. Serria. The accuracy is the same as the Hornady, but I get a much bigger wound channel with the Serrias. The only 240 gr. bullet I`ve ever found in a deer was in a nice 10 point buck that I shot at 135 yrds. I hit him in the right rear and the buller was just under the skin of the frount shoulder. If you could find a good 180 gr. bullet. that didn`t blow up at close ranges it would have some advantage over the 240`s, but I haven`t found one yet.

[DGrig]

Thanks for the come back on this.  I am always looking to improve accuracy and enjoyment of shooting.  I think I will stick with the 240 XTPs for deer.  Do you practice with a different bullet?  I tend to shoot a lot... well just because I enjoy doing it, and am interested with any of you have a light practice bullet/powder setup. 

[teddy12b]

If you wanted a lighter bullet with less recoil try a Barnes 200 gr.  I loaded some up for my Ruger Super Blackhawk and the recoil felt like half of that from 180gr, or 240gr round.  I have handloaded 180 and 240 and not seen much difference between the two when it comes to accuracy, but I haven't exactly mastered my handgun yet either.  The Barnes bullets are much more expensive, but they felt a lot softer and that was with an extra grain or two of H110 behind them.  Being all copper I can't imagine they wouldn't stay together and go all the way through a deer.  I have never shot anything with my 44mag other than paper though so I'm just guessing on what it'd do to game.

[swampthing]

If you reload you can easily eclipse the leathallity of both of those light weights. LBT hardcast 250-280g WFN loaded over AA#5 will give you about 1200fps... for roughly 12 ft.lbs. of recoil, loaded to 1100fps an its more like 10 ft.lbs. Basically the same as a .357 shooting fast 180's. Either one of those LBT bullets will zip through deer, wild hog and black bear for that matter, and not look back. Montana bullet works has them for roughly 60 bucks for 500.
My SRH will make one ragged hole at 50yds with the .432" dia.  280's going any where from 1185fps to 1350 fps, depending on powder choice of course.
Seen what a 240g won't do to a hog and now I use "one load" with a hardcast all the time.

[myronman3]

i am with graybeard and swampthing on this one.   i use cast bullets, and back the velocity off a bit. 

[teddy12b]

I've never fired a cast bullet to the best of my knowledge.  What makes them so different in regards to recoil, accuracy, powder etc.  I've heard good things, I just don't know anything about them.  I always thought that jacketed bullets were just the way to go.

[myronman3]

cast dont expand.   they blow right through.   it doesnt take a lot of velocity to get the job done.  so why run them full steam when 1000fps does all you need and more?  where as hollow points are designed to expand, a certain degree of velocity is needed. 

that is the thought process behind it.   hope that helps. 

[Bullseye]

Now I am curious.  The cast do not expand and the HP are supposed to expand a lot.  What about a Jacketed Flat Point.  I always thought they were in the middle with some expansion but not near as much or as quickly as a HP.  Is that corrrect?

[swampthing]

Well yes and no. It depends on velocity. Shot fast enough certain JFP"s can expand rapidly. Hollow point handgun bullets typically open faster for a given velocity than jacketed flat points. Both will require a certain amount of velocity to work properly, and were as you want to lower recoil, a JFP would probably work against you as it will require ample velocity to get the job done. With a JFP's  shot at reduced velocity the bullet has only the small frontal area to create tissue damage. Where as a WFN profile harcast has a much larger frontal area, called a meplat, this creates a larger wound channel, much like when you drop a brick in to water. 11 or 1200fps is all thats needed to create a large enough wound channel for a rapid and clean kill. Penetration will be right through so make sure there is not game on the other side as it will be hit.

[MS Hitman]

Based on what I continue to read on sites such as this one, most handgunners fail to understand the basic principles of how handguns kill.  Velocity and energy do not kill unless you have overmatched your load to your quarry.  With very few execptions, handgun hunters are not able to achieve these conditions.  Penetration to the vitals and the CNS that will allow bleeding and disrupting the nervous system kill.  More importantly in big and dangerous game, penetration will allow you to better break tyhe structure of an animal.

Velocity and energy are continuously diminishing after the bullet leaves the muzzle.  Therefore, bullet weight needs to be of a range for the caliber that will work for the shooter instead of against him or her.  Slow, heavy for caliber bullets need not be driven hard to perform adequately.  A 420 grain bullet travleing at 900 to 1,000 fs is not only pleasant to shoot, but is very hard to stop; same goes for a 255-260 grain bullet fired from a .45 Colt.

I would suggest that if you are bent on shooting 180 grain bullets, they need to be no larger than .35 caliber.

[teddy12b]

I'm not an experienced handgun hunter, so I'm learning a lot as this conversation keeps going.  I can't help thinking to myself that if you shot a deer with a 44 mag within 50 yards or less, wouldn't that break the shoulder and 99%likely of going right through the lungs and or heart? 

The's 44mag is no "P" shooter in my eyes no matter what bullet weight you using.  Seems like if you place the shot correctly within regular handgun range it wouldn't be much of a problem.  I just don't see how you could lose with a 44 mag assuming the hunter makes a good shot.  In many cases you either put a big hole through the heart and or lungs or you didn't. 

I'd like to go handgun hunting with one of my 44 someday and I want to know what I'm doing before I get there.  I load a lot of 180 Remington JHP off of Cabelas website.  Would those rounds not kill a deer within 50 yards?

[Lone Star]

Yes, the 180s will kill any dear alive if placed in the right spot.  But here is the rub, placing the bullet in exactly the right place for a bullet which lacks penetration.  Inexperienced hunters seem to believe that deer will magically appear standing broadside at 50 yards, waiting for the marksman to put the bullet in the lungs and get a quick kill.  Experienced hunters know that this profile shot is rare indeed.  The deer may be quartering towards or away from you, he may be moving, he may be above or below you.  All these scenarios can preclude you placing the 180-grain bullet exactly where it needs to go. 

Your options in the above scenarios - either risk a shot that may only wound the deer, or pass up the shot altogether and hope to see another deer in the perfect profile.  Had you carried a bullet capable of penetrating a lot of deer, you would have been able to take the quartering shots with an excellent chance of quickly killing the animal.  That is why light bullets for the caliber are best used on small game and targets.  Why handicap yourself when hunting with a handgun is enough of a handicap already?   


.

[swampthing]

A factory 240g load @1450fps kicks with 18 ft.lbs. of recoil in a 3 pound gun.
A 250g hardcast handloaded to 1250 fps kicks with 12 ft.lbs in the same gun. That is one third less and a lot more managable.
Even 1250fps is unecessary for your 50 yd or less task. The 250g WFN @ 1100 fps will plow through the largest deer you come across, kill quick and humane, from ANY angle, and with a whole lot less noise than a .357mag, but with 9ft.lbs of recoil it kicks with, at that speed, you think you were shooting one.

[teddy12b]

I’m still trying to completely understand this.  So let’s say worst case scenario that the deer is quartering away or quartering towards you.  Wouldn’t a 180 gr. bullet make it though the shoulder and into the vitals?  Maybe it won’t pass all the way through but I can’t see a weapon that powerful not breaking through the shoulder and once it’s done that the bullet and bone fragments would wreak havoc on the lungs and or heart. 

I looked at remingtons ballistic tables and the 180gr is still moving over 1000fps at 100 yards.  I have a hard time thinking a 180gr wouldn’t penetrate a deer.  I’ve never taken a shot at a deer that I didn’t think was going to go exactly where I was aiming.  I understand stuff happens and sometimes we miss. 

A bad shot or a less than desirable shot is a whole other can of worms to open up.  Since I’m new to handgun hunting I don’t think I’d take a shot at something unless it was a pretty good broadside shot, but I understand misplaced shots do happen, but would a gut shot deer from a 240gr be any different than a gut shot deer from a 180gr?  That’s the part I really don’t get.

[John R.]

Do yourself and the animal a favor and stay with the heavier bullets. Those lighter bullets are going to get you in trouble sooner or later,especially on larger game.

[teddy12b]

If it's one of those things that it's just better to go with a heavier bullet and not fuss with all the technical data that's good enough for me.  I just wish I understood it better.  I'll shoot off what I have remaining from the 180gr rounds and then get back on the 240's for hunting.  I'm still a fan of the Barnes bullets and I think those would be my hunting bullet of choice just because they're probably the least likely to come apart.

[Greybeard]

You should NOT assume the 180 will make it to the vitals on all possible shot angles. As I said the ONLY time I used one on a white tail it did kill the deer, I made a double lung shot and it still failed to exit even tho it hit only one rib and the lungs. It was found under the skin on the off side. I've not used one since, in fact I've not used less than a 240 since and all bullets have exited.

[John R.]

If you want to see something stay together, get a 280 gr. WFN with a gas check. If hunting something larger or tougher than deer, you may want to go a little heavier. You can drive that type of bullet through a deer at just about any concievable angle.

[MS Hitman]

First off, you need to put away the energy tables. 

The bullet you seem intent on shooting is not going to give you the penetration you need for less than perfect shots.  Truth be known, you may not get the penetration you need on "perfect" shots either.  A 44 bullet is expanded prior to leaving the muzzle.  You have plenty of diameter to create a large wound cavity and incapacitate a deer provided your bullet gets where it needs to be.  This is deep through the body cavity.  If your bullet stops or blows up on the surface, or for whatever reason fails to get into the body cavity, you have accomplished no good whatsoever. Teo holes are better than one, therefore I am always looking for complete penetration on game.

I can achieve 21" of penetration in wet newsprint from a 240 grain SWC going 750 fps in a .44 Special.  This is more than enough to completely penetrate a whitetail, even with breaking a shoulder.

[swampthing]

If one doesn't believe the experience of others, one would do very well to test the bullet in question.
 The easiest, and cheapest, way to test a bullet is to take 24", or so, stack of newspapers and soak them in water for 36-48 hours. Then prop them up so you can shoot into the stack, towards the facing pages not the edges. Placing some marrow bones in it is not a bad idea but not necessary. Whatever you see when shot at 25 yds or so, expect roughly double that in a live animal but take into consideration the hole will look smaller due to the elasticity of living tissue.
   Light bullets lose velocity, energy, and momentum much faster than mid to heavy weights. Factor in the mushroomed nose of the expanded bullet, that creates resistance thus compounding all of these factors. This is why they are not good for quartering away shots. The bullet would have to go through the paunch area before it even reaches the vitals. With light bullets there is so little remaining velocity/momentum that the wound would be tiny. Heavy bullets over come this, not with speed but with momentum, that keeps it plowing through.
   It is worth the time to try it and see.   

[Gregory]

I've taken two deer with a 44 Mag Contender, not much data, but both deer ended up dead.  I used a 180 gr Sierra on the first and hit a bit far back but caught the spine, small spike went down in a heap.  Second deer taken with a 200 gr Nosler JHP.  Deer was quartering away at 60+ yds, bullet caught liver going in, penetrated through lungs and broke offside leg on exit.  182 lb (dressed) 8 point. 

I switched after that to a 357 Max and 180 gr XTP's and took 4 deer with that combo.   Used a 170 SWC out of a 357 Mag for another deer. 

200 to 240 gr JHP out of a 44 Mag will work on any deer with a reasonable shot presentation  IMHO.
The 180's will work but you need to hold out for a good broadside lung shot.


 

[SDS-GEN]

Teddy12b
Stop thinking of bullets for a moment.  Would you rather get hit in the chest with a 14 pound bowling ball traveling 40fps or a volley ball traveling 140fps?  I know the volley ball is softer but even if it had a hard outer surface, like a bowling ball, it wouldn't hit as hard, both projectiles are about the same caliber.  This is an extreme exageration but it is the same principle everyone is talking about.  Don't worry about expansion you are already putting a hole in an animal that is almost a half inch in diameter, you want penetration plain and simple.  Don't think rifle ballistics, think big, heavy, slow moving bullets because that is what revolvers provide. 

[Lloyd Smale]

a case for cast happened to me this year. My 12 year old nephew wounded a 6 point buck and the brother in law came and got me to help track. We tracked it for about 500 yards and came to the edge of a clearing. The 6 pointer flushed out at the edge of the clearing and was runing away from me at about 50 yards. I had my .500 linebaugh with me and took a quick shot and caught it right in the *** the deer dropped in its tracks and we found the bullet came out high in the chest. Now about any big bore handgun would have done the same from a 41 on up. If id have been useing a 44 with 180 jacketed that deer would have probably would have kept right on going. I hear lots about what calibers or bullets will do fine with good shot placement but in the real world of hunting theres to many variables. Me in the 44 id go with at least a 250 cast at at least 900-1000 fps. that load will shoot through any dear at about any angle.

[teddy12b]

I’m hearing a lot of good things about hunting with hard cast bullets from guys who sound like they have had great success with them.  At some point I’m going to be getting my hands on some hard cast bullets 240gr or higher for my 44mag.  I’ll follow whatever loads are in the books, but another question I have is what do gas checks do?  There's been a lot of talk about 240gr as the standard for minimum wieght but what about a max weight.  Is there a point where you are using too heavy of a bullet?  Thanks for all the great information guys. 

[John R.]

Personally 300 grs. is about as heavy as I like, but you can go to 320. After that you're getting a little heavy for caliber. The gas checks help with leading at high velocity.

[teddy12b]

So do you just press the gas check on?  Are pretty much all cast bullets the same quality wise between the different manufacturers?