Author Topic: 44 Mag velocity diff from revolver vs Contender (Read 2277 times)

handirifle · « **on:** December 20, 2006, 07:42:39 PM »

I am looking serious into a contender but a S&W or similar revolver is interesting too. What are comparitive velocities between the two with the same loads?

apollo · « **Reply #1 on:** December 21, 2006, 02:16:58 AM »

The difference is enough that it's like shooting a more powerful cartridge. You don't get the pressure drop in the contender that you get with the revolver due to the cylinder to barrel gap. Another thing to consider is that you can load your ammo to a longer over all lenght in the contender which creates more room for powder. So basically it's like having a longer cartridge to start with. Almost like comparing the 44 special to the 44 mag brass length.

handirifle · « **Reply #2 on:** December 21, 2006, 04:10:44 AM »

Thanks apollo. Anyone with a number comparison with the same load from one gun to another?

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** December 21, 2006, 04:22:03 AM »

It's really immaterial. Sure you do pick up some and yeah that some makes it a wee tiny bit flatter shooting but the real world range limits of it will not change and anyone who thinks a little bit of velocity matters in a straight wall handgun round just really doesn't understand the dynamics of how they kill.

handirifle · « **Reply #4 on:** December 21, 2006, 05:17:14 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on December 21, 2006, 04:22:03 AM

It's really immaterial. Sure you do pick up some and yeah that some makes it a wee tiny bit flatter shooting but the real world range limits of it will not change and anyone who thinks a little bit of velocity matters in a straight wall handgun round just really doesn't understand the dynamics of how they kill.

So I guess it's not enough loss to worry over then?

GRainwater · « **Reply #5 on:** December 21, 2006, 08:36:06 AM »

The difference is about 200 fps in my T/C vs Dan Wesson using the same load including OAL. Using max T/C OAL might add 25+ fps.

Your call whether this is worth it or not.

handirifle · « **Reply #6 on:** December 21, 2006, 09:23:54 AM »

Thanks grainwater

In my book 200fps is quite a difference, but will it add to the range a lot, like GB said, most likely not a whole lot but it could take a 100yd shot from marginal to very acceptable as far as energy goes. As for the extra 25 for longer seating, it might not be worth worrying about, unless it becomes an accuracy issue, ie, closer to the rifling and maybe more accurate.

apollo · « **Reply #7 on:** December 21, 2006, 12:44:15 PM »

Yeah, 200 fps is a big gain when you look at this way. The difference between a 280 rem and a 7mm rem mag is around 200 fps. The same goes for the difference between the 30/06 and the 300 win. mag. A difference of 200 fps will get you energy up quiet a bit but the trajectory will not change much.

handirifle · « **Reply #8 on:** December 21, 2006, 01:41:35 PM »

I just re-read my post and I meant to say, but it will "NOT" add to the range much. Just give ample energy.

Graybeard · « **Reply #9 on:** December 21, 2006, 02:18:38 PM »

Sorry guys but anyone who still thinks 200 fps matters in a straight wall handgun case just doesn't yet understand how and why they work. Both myself and Lloyd Smale have been trying to explain this to folks here for years and it seems folks still don't get it. Read the thread about light bullets, I think it's on the hadngun hunting forum. Energy as it relates to this discussion is a non issue, it's all on paper and not something in the real world.

Racer X · « **Reply #10 on:** December 21, 2006, 04:22:25 PM »

This is just one data point, but I have a 7-1/2" Super Blackhawk Hunter in 45 Colt with a .002" barrel/cylinder gap. Using the Hornday loading data for the 250 grain XTP and AA #9 powder, I am getting the same velocities that Hornady is getting from their test gun, which is a 10" barrel T/C Contender.

handirifle · « **Reply #11 on:** December 21, 2006, 04:45:46 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard on December 21, 2006, 02:18:38 PM

Sorry guys but anyone who still thinks 200 fps matters in a straight wall handgun case just doesn't yet understand how and why they work. Both myself and Lloyd Smale have been trying to explain this to folks here for years and it seems folks still don't get it. Read the thread about light bullets, I think it's on the hadngun hunting forum. Energy as it relates to this discussion is a non issue, it's all on paper and not something in the real world.

GB
Either I misunderstand you or you misunderstood me, not sure which. As an archer, I firmly believe in the slower heavy arrow for complete penetration. I also believe the same applies to bullets, one reason I rebarreled my 30-06 to a 338-06, to sling heavier slugs.

That said, I feel it's always nice, if you can, to fling the heavier arrow (or bullet) as fast as possible, as long as it is accurate. I know there does come a point of diminishing returns, just like in archery, as poundage goes above 60# the return for energy delivered is less as the poundage goes up.

Wouldn't this be like the case of the 44 Mag vs. the 445 Supermag, or to the extreme, the 444 Marlin? There IS going to be a gain in energy, and trajectory, but at what point does it become a gain of diminishing returns? Is this what you're meaning?

Graybeard · « **Reply #12 on:** December 21, 2006, 05:38:35 PM »

Read this thread, it's all explained very clearly there.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,106347.0.html

handirifle · « **Reply #13 on:** December 21, 2006, 06:21:30 PM »

OK
Great thread, and I agree with them 100%, but I do think you misunderstood my REASON for asking the question in the first place.

Like I mentioned, I'm not one looking for ultra velocity in anything. My reason for asking really had more to do with understanding the effeciency difference of a closed breach/barrel pistol vs. a revolver. Greater effeciency means equal velocity with less powder when compared to some of the revolvers, IF the TC styles really is more effecient.

My 44 Mag Winchester 94 Trapper delivers 1800fps with Winchester factory 240 JSP loads. I'm sure these clock around 1400 from most any handgun with a 6" or more barrel. Same load, it's just plain more effecient with a longer barrel.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to getting my TC after Christmas and learning with it.

Thanks to all for the feedback.

Graybeard · « **Reply #14 on:** December 22, 2006, 01:45:57 AM »

It is true that a closed breech system like your rifle or the TC will "usually" deliver more velocity than will an open system like a revolver has. It's also true that "usually" a longer barrel will deliver a wee bit more velocity than a shorter one.

BUT in the real world things are never exactly as expected. Some times a shorter barrel will deliver a bit more velocity than a little longer barrel and some times a really tight revolver can deliver more than a TC. Not usually but some times.

What I'm saying is that it's immaterial. The small velocity difference is of no importance in real world use, it gives no worth while advantage even if it were 200 fps.

mbartel · « **Reply #15 on:** December 22, 2006, 03:30:29 AM »

I'm afraid that theory is flat wrong. Let's take a straight walled pistol case as an example.
In the case of the .45acp, all of the premium JHP bullets are designed to perform their best in a certain velocity range.
If you decrease that range by 200fps, those bullets will not perform as designed.
A JHP .45acp bullet at 650fps, will not be near as effective as the same bullet at 850fps.

Now with hard cast bullets, the extra velocity is not really an issue. properly contructed cast bullets don't rely on velocity to be effective, like the JHPs do. The extra velocity is dependant on bullet design, not case design.

Graybeard · « **Reply #16 on:** December 22, 2006, 10:01:49 AM »

You've ventured to the absurd. We have been discussing HUNTING rounds not self defense rounds. But even so adding 200 fps IF IT WERE POSSIBLE to the standard velocity of the .45 acp wouldn't benefit you for a hunting round and for a self defense load might actually hurt you as it would move the bullets out of their design parameters. Let's stick to comparing apples to apples.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #17 on:** December 22, 2006, 02:47:30 PM »

The thing is to fling a heavier bullet, not make a lighter one go faster.

Graybeard · « **Reply #18 on:** December 22, 2006, 11:09:10 PM »

Quote from: Dusty Miller on December 22, 2006, 02:47:30 PM

The thing is to fling a heavier bullet, not make a lighter one go faster.

Yupper that's what those of us who've been doing this handgun hunting for 30-40 years have been trying to get across to folks for years but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

In handgun hunting with straight wall cases more killing power means a larger diameter and/or heavier bullet NOT a faster one.

sgtt · « **Reply #19 on:** December 23, 2006, 06:18:27 PM »

The original post was about velocities not bullet weights. While I do subscribe to the heavy cast bullet philosophy I have to also believe that 200 fps can be subsatantial. Or maybe better phrased when does it become substantial? Dropping from 1400 to 1200. Not substantial? Okay, let's now drop to 1000 fps. Is it still not substantial? Then 800? At some point it becomes substantial. You need adequate velocity for a hunting round. Going up can also cause a dilema. Hornady has a 45 bullet that is designed to function below 1500 fps. (240 grains I think) From 1400 to 1600 fps I think would be substantial. I assume the bullet would expand too fast and not provide the desired penitration. Bad thing. If you are planning on reloading you will reach the desired velocity sooner with the TC........ah........most of the time.

Pinkerton · « **Reply #20 on:** December 23, 2006, 07:17:56 PM »

The biggest advantage of the conterder is accuracy. It's rare that a revolver will keep up with a contender as far as accuracy goes. 100 yards is a stretch for me with a revolver but I'd stretch to 125 with my contender. That's each with a 2x scope, but I'm sure there are others that can do much better but that's my limit with the 44mag in each.

handirifle · « **Reply #21 on:** December 23, 2006, 07:34:19 PM »

GB, to expand on what you say and what pinkerton brings up. I also have a Win 94 Trapper in 44 Mag. It produces 1800fps from the 16" barrel with the Win factory 240gr loads. After reading what you've been saying and the way pinkerton explains it, that may well be TOO much velocity, at least for THAT bullet.

Maybe that's one reason why handguns have always done better with heavier bullets, as the lighter ones have not had the desired penetration, which COULD be from bullet design, partly, but mostly due to the ballistic coeffecient.

No I do also suppose that the above mentioned 340gr load in my rifle, would perform better at 100yds than at 25, at least on paper.

The 45-70 I once owned sure did rattle cages a LOT more from the slow 400gr bullet than it did with the fast 300gr.

300winman · « **Reply #22 on:** December 25, 2006, 02:38:22 AM »

To say a contender has an advantage of accuracy is a really bold statement. There are a few silhouette shooters that would disagree with your 100 yard max revolver accuracy. Not to put down a contender, they can be very accurate in the right hands. But I think there are a few revolvers out there that can give it a run for the money or do a bit better. I am a Dan Wesson fan and have heard of 200 yard shots on silhouette rams with the 445 super mag.

300winman · « **Reply #23 on:** December 25, 2006, 02:59:52 AM »

Looking at my last post I see a battle of the best long range pistol battle start to begin. In an attempt to prevent this let me rephrase. At NORMAL hunting ranges for a pistol (100 yds or less) there are many revolvers that shoot just as accurate as a contender to take game.

olywa · « **Reply #24 on:** December 25, 2006, 09:07:14 AM »

This is a good discussion and reinforces a lot of the good information I've gained from participation in this forum. I personally shoot 2 .44s, a 4 5/8" SBH and a 14" Contender. But I tend to do different things with them. The SBH rides in a crossdraw holster whenever I'm out in the sticks working, hiking or fishing. It packs easy and stays out of the way until I need it. I load it up with Lasercast 240gr SWC on top of 10 or 11 grains of Unique and I think it will get the job done if I run into blackie or a bad kitty. I practice with this load at the range quite a bit and feel that it is comfortable to shoot as well as being pretty darn effective for anything I'll ask it to do inside of 50 yards.

I get a little more creative for my 2X scoped Contender. I like to push 210gr jacketed hollow points at a little less than max with 2400. I also recently picked up some LilGun to give that a try. This one bangs the 100 yard gong at the range pretty easily when shooting off my walking stick with the V-yoke on top. I haven't popped a deer with it yet but it has turned a couples of yotes inside out for me.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #25 on:** December 25, 2006, 09:41:24 AM »

because handguns are often such a short-range proposition i'll take all the velocity i can get that doesn't exceed the design parameters of the bullet. a somewhat flatter trajectory that extends my point blank range by 25 to 35 yds' is actually of interest to me. so, too, is the extra penetration on a shot taken at a 'bad angle'! when hunting out of a tree stand with its improved view of the surroundings i think it especially makes sense to kick up a handguns velocity..........even if it's only 200 to 300 fps'. when scoping a handgun one can extend his accuracy such that the extra killing power and improved trajectory makes even more sense.

that's why i bought .44 magnums instead of using heavy handloads like Elmer K's in a .44 Special.

i don't see it as an arguement about "energy" at all.....with a revolver and straight-walled cartridges like we hunt deer with in Ohio. (that's Handi's original intent for his next handgun purchase...). i see it as improving my handicap enough to matter when i'm out to "make meat".

ss'

handirifle · « **Reply #26 on:** December 25, 2006, 05:30:18 PM »

Quote from: safetysheriff on December 25, 2006, 09:41:24 AM

because handguns are often such a short-range proposition i'll take all the velocity i can get that doesn't exceed the design parameters of the bullet. a somewhat flatter trajectory that extends my point blank range by 25 to 35 yds' is actually of interest to me. so, too, is the extra penetration on a shot taken at a 'bad angle'! when hunting out of a tree stand with its improved view of the surroundings i think it especially makes sense to kick up a handguns velocity..........even if it's only 200 to 300 fps'. when scoping a handgun one can extend his accuracy such that the extra killing power and improved trajectory makes even more sense.

that's why i bought .44 magnums instead of using heavy handloads like Elmer K's in a .44 Special.

i don't see it as an arguement about "energy" at all.....with a revolver and straight-walled cartridges like we hunt deer with in Ohio. (that's Handi's original intent for his next handgun purchase...). i see it as improving my handicap enough to matter when i'm out to "make meat".

ss'

So true, so true!

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #27 on:** December 28, 2006, 03:07:47 AM »

I know you keep asking for numbers showing the difference between a TC and revolver.

These are the numbers I got with my guns:

TC: 240 gr. XTP, 12" barrel = 1253 fps.

S&W 629, 6 1/2" barrel, 240 gr. XTP = 1464 fps.

You have to take the difference in barrel length into consideration. Don't know if that helps.

Graybeard · « **Reply #28 on:** December 28, 2006, 08:37:47 AM »

Quote from: Lawful Larry on December 28, 2006, 03:07:47 AM

I know you keep asking for numbers showing the difference between a TC and revolver.

These are the numbers I got with my guns:

TC: 240 gr. XTP, 12" barrel = 1253 fps.

S&W 629, 6 1/2" barrel, 240 gr. XTP = 1464 fps.

You have to take the difference in barrel length into consideration. Don't know if that helps.

Are you sure you didn't get those numbers reversed? Yeah it's possible that they are not but it would be a very rare situation for a 6.5" revolver to shoot the same load faster than a 12" TC.

Flash · « **Reply #29 on:** December 28, 2006, 09:40:43 AM »

The closed breach Contender provides more from a mathematical standpoint but the point of impact is really the only mathematical calculation needed in hunting. The velocity difference is negligible, when being considered within the cartridges effective range. Death is seldom a mathematical calculation.