1st 450marlin kill-NOT THRILLED, NEED OPINIONS

[Dee]

Nonya, Why not??? Never lost one.  I've shot a few that way, helps to loosen up the in'ards. In all reality, some times it is the only shot I might have, especially in the thick cedar swamps or elder thickets. If I can sneak up a little off line, my best shot is 'bout a 5-10 degree angle behind the ribs going towards the opposite shoulder, takes the heart, lungs, and a shoulder out from the inside out. Saves just 'bout all the meat.

I agree with ya Old Time Hunter. Down here it's called a "Texas Heart Shot." With a 30 caliber and up, it's a dependable shot, and has probably been used thousands of times by the older experienced hunters, who where more interested in eating than braggin rights. There is no tellin how many 3030s have downed big deer with a shot such as that.

[NONYA]

round here we call that shoot em in the ass and ruining the largest chunk of meat on a deer,texas heart shot my ass its stupid and unnecessary,you cant get a clean vital or front shoulder shot so you just shoot game in the ass?He said a few inches from the rectum ,thats in the ass and not some angling away shot to the vitals.Must be some kind of unwillingness to do things right that goes hand in hand with using the 30-30.

[Dee]

 

[Old Time Hunter]

Well Nonya, sure got you're dander up! See that you must also be the all time expert when it comes to proper hunting. For me it is more of a means than a sport, and dare I say that wasting provisions is not ever my intentions. If you know what you are doing and you load correctly, plus you have enough skill to place the shot properly, why would there be much waste? First the bullet passes through the rectum, maybe you enjoy that part as being edible, then enters the lower abdominal cavity where expansion generally occurs and creates the majority of trama. The expended bullet then settles in the front shoulder area or up the neck. Probably wasted thimble full of meat.

You also have to take into account the terrain, availabilty of shots, availability of game, and artificial time constraints put on by "seasons". Over forty-five years of hunting, it has happened more than once or twice that the season was ending within the last hour of the last day and the only shot I would have is one I wouldn't take on the first day. I figure it takes 'bout four good size whitetails to provision for my families needs annually, that is one during bow season, two during our 9 day rifle, and one during the muzzle loading season.

[qajaq59]

Must be some kind of unwillingness to do things right that goes hand in hand with using the 30-30.

Oh I see, if I use my 30-30 to hunt then I'm not willing to do things right. And you know this, HOW?

Never mind, it isn't even worth discussing.............

[NONYA]

ok ur the expert ass shooter,my bad.Hope you like the taste of your meat after you shoot a deer up the ass and cover everything with bile and semi digeted green goo,i was taught to make a vitals shot or dont shoot,you do whatever you fell is right but dont try to tell me this is some kind of popular idea.

[1895m]

I shot a small buck last year with my 450 at 35 - 40 yard and it didn't even act like it was hit.  Not much blood but when we found it 75 or so yards away, both lungs were destroyed.  My buddy used the same gun 2 years ago and shot a spike at about 60 yards and the deer only went a couple of feet and that was due to gravity.  He hit his just on top of the facing shoulder and we found the bullet halfway through a 6 inch birch behind it.  I think it is a great deer gun.  I'll be using it again in the North Woods of Michigan come this November.

[jcn59]

Dropping anything in it's tracks is more about bullet placement than the size of the cartridge - case in point - I shot a deer through both lungs, clipping off the top of the heart with a .30 mag, 165 Gr. Nosler partition at 3100 fps, and the deer ran away about 150 yards.   Then I shot a bedded deer,  a few inches forward of the previous shot, breaking both shoulders.  He never got up.  That one took a 300 grain bullet at 1800 fps from a muzzle loader.  Like someone already said, break bones or disconnect the cns to put them down immediately.  Nothing at all wrong with the .450 Marlin.   Someone once asked something like "At what point during the death of the creature did the bullet fail?"

[TNyoteboy]

I dropped a doe on the 27th of December with a Marlin 1895SS in 45/70 shooting Remington 300 gr JHPs. Shot her from the ground thru the top of both shoulders and she dropped like a rock. Would have shot her thru the lungs but she was running and stopped near me and I kind of snap shot her. I ended up having to shoot her again to end it, but she wasn't going anywhere after the first shot. 

[Echo4Lima]

Shot several deer and a hog with my .450.  Go down like any other rifle.  Its ALL in the shot placement.  Had a small Blacktail @ 65-70 yds.  Shot went thru both lungs.  Didn't hit any bone or CNS.  However, deers hooves splayed out, teeter tottered and dropped on the spot.  Lung material up the hill about 15yds, lung material DOWN the hill about 10yds. Interesting. Tasted good!!

Once shot a deer across the rear near the base of the tail. (He jumped as I was shooting) DROPPED HIM RIGHT THERE!!  Hit the base end of his spine!  I figure the shock wave did it. Tasted good!!

[Old Grizz]

Hello All,

I bought an 1895Marlin in 450 for this deer season after years of hunting w/ a shotgun. I hated every minute of having to use a shotgun, but loved the knockdown power. I went with the 450 because it appeared to be the best option in a rifle to give me the knockdown I wanted to retain. I have a couple of neighbors here in NY who won't allow anyone on, even to look for a wounded deer.
My 1st kill with the new gun was a doe, dressing a bit over 140lbs. She was feeding just 25 yards away, totally calm. On the shot she took off as if not hit. I was dumbfounded.  I found hair and a bit of blood at the site, but not much. After 20 yards I found good blood, but she managed to travel almost 125 yards before going down. She ended her life just 10 yards from my property line. The bullet went in just behind the shoulder, blew out an off rib, leaving a large exit wound and ripped apart 2 lobes of the lung.
My question is, is this normal reaction from whitetails when using the standard factory load? Has anyone else had either better or worse experiences? Now, before anyone starts flaming me, I know one example doesn't tell me hardly anything about this cartridge/bullets potential. That's why I'm asking for other's experiences. I'm thinking this bullet is possibly too stout for deer. Granted, a 458 hole in and out is bigger than many bullets will give, even with great expansion, but does the expansion of, say, a hollowpoint give more shock/energy transfer?
I reload my own usually and plan on loading in order to make some plinking/practice loads. Does anyone have advice on a bullet I should be looking at for better performance? Does anyone use hollowpoints, and what sort of kills have you seen with them?
I appreciate any help, as I'm totally surprised, given the circumstances, that this deer didn't just drop in her tracks. I look forward to hearing what anyone thinks.
Bob

Who can ever figure out why some deer drop on the spot and others don't. I think it has to do with the will to live. This year I took an 8pt. with my 30-30 through both lungs at 150 yards, it ran 30 yards and expired. Last year I took a 7 point with my 45-70 through both lungs and it ran 200 yards. I have taken black bear and grizzly with my 45-70 and some drop in their tracks and others don't. A friend of mine took his daughter hunting this year with a 22-250 and dropped a 14 point with one shot through the lungs. He said it never even flinched, just went down like someone kicked the back legs out from under it. But in any case, no matter how far they run before they are recovered, the end results are the same, DEAD.

[Ranger J]

I shot three deer this year with the 45/70.  Two of them were with 300 Rem HP loaded to Marlin level with Re #7, probably around 2100fps.  One small doe ran maybe 20 yards and left great blood trail.  The other, large doe, took spine hit and dropped in her tracks.  Both of them had enormous exit wounds and imo had way too much meat damage.  That plus that the 300 gr loaded to that level is not a lot of fun to practice with.  I shot another, small buck, with a 300 Laser Cast bullet, loaded with 2400 to trapdoor levels, spine hit and it went right down.  There wasn't a lot of expansion as this cast bullet is quite hard.  On the plus side I can shot these at the range all day.  My Handi likes them a lot better than my 1895 Marlin.  As I felt that the Marlin loads were sort of 'over gunned' for where I shoot as shots are generally around 50 yards or less I am thinking of dropping the 300 Rem HP to trap door levels next year.  PS.  I shot an average doe several years through the H/L area with a 30-06 and had her take off and run probably 200 yards flat out until she collapsed.  If it is important to drop them on spot you have to shoot them in either the spine or through the front shoulders.

I am an old shotgun hunter, originally from Illinois.  I got spoiled all those years as I can count on one hand all the shotgun shot deer I had to track.  Moved to Missouri about 15 years ago and got tired of carrying slug gun around and switched to a rifle.  My Rem rifled barrel auto is nearly as accurate as my rifles with foster type slugs and I would not feel 'under gunned' with it where I hunt most of time today.  If you are unhappy with rifle and have a good shotgun I would go back to it.  A man has to have confidence in his gun.

RJ

[buck460XVR]

deers dead and in the freezer. Bullet and gun worked!

good call.  I butcher my own venison and have found that the difference in meat from a average deer shot in the shoulders to one shot  just  in the ribs to be but half an ice cream pail of burger meat. I'd rather watch them fall where they are than have them run 50 yards into a waist deep swamp or over the other side of the bluff......and when shooting from a tree stand, because of the angle,  it tends to save tenderloin by placing your shot a little farther forward and taking out the top of the heart and one or both shoulders than trying to hit behind the shoulders.

The key is to dispatch your quarry as quickly and as humanely as possible. If you gotta give up a little meat to do so in a particular situation....so be it.

[Buckeye]

I 've killed lotz of Whitetails ,with various calibers ,375 Win., 356 Win, 35 Rem.. 45/70, 9.3X57,9.3X62, 30-30,270 Win. ,30-06, 6.5X55, 243 Winny,8mm Mauser,8mm/06, 357 Mag, 44 Mag, 44 Spl. ,12Ga Shot gun w/ buckshot and slugs, and a 22 Mag.
But the fastest i've ever seen a deer go down was shot by a 11 Yr. old boy with a Rossi singleshot rifle in 7.62X39 with factory 123 gr. Rem. soft point bullet....honest it went down as if it was hit by the Hammer of Thor ! It was a cervical spine (Neck) shot at about 125 Yd.s

But sometimes if a deer has its adrenaline going they will run ...and.. run... no matter what you hit them with..

[Hooker]

Wow this has been interesting. There is a lot of different opinions and experiences here.
I've been hunting deer since I could walk I'm almost 50 now, and I've seen a lot variety in my life time afield.
You can't always count on a DRT shot. I've seen deer that should have dropped on the spot run off like they were healthy.
I've also seen poor shots that smacked them down in there tracks. Yes I've performed the Texas Heart Shot 3 times they were DRTs , and they make less mess than a straight on chest shot.
I've also put 300 gr hp with max load of 4198 from my 45/70 at 10 feet into a doe dropped her like hot horse shoe. and I ate her right up to the bullet hole.
Then there was a buck I shot through the heart and lungs taking the off side leg completely off and it still ran over 70 yards and jumped one fence before it realized it was dead.

Then there was this shot


 

Pat

[Freezer]

    I like the high chest shot 1/2 to 2/3 up and just behind the shoulder.  Most of the deer have been blacktail but have shot five whitetail in PA.  I've only had one deer run 50 yrds. All the others if they travel at all went 25 yrds.  None of my deer have signifigant meat damage all had both lungs shattered and/or spine damage.  I haven't lost a deer yet.  I passed on two trophy 5x5's and took a large fork horn believing it not fair to shoot anyone in the butt.  I'm still kicking myself but would do the same thing again, besides you can't eat the horns.  I've used 30-30, 300 Savage, 308, 280 Rem and 44 mag on all my deer.  I hand load and prefer Sierra game king bullets, they've performed well from 25 to 281 yrds.
    My buddies dog tried to eat my nose and to apoligise he bought me a 450 guide gun.  I found the recoil and trigger heavy for my taste and choose not to hunt with it.  I did call Hornady and they sent me their lab notes for reduced recoil loads.  They used 300 gr HP.  This might be the answer to your problem.  I'll PM you as soon as I can locate them.

[Varmint Hunter]

I always was a heart/lung shooter and have dropped many deer over the years using this shot placement. Last year I decided to see what all the hoopala was regarding the high-shoulder shot. I had 6 deer tags and was lucky enough to fill them all.

I was shooting a 7STW with a 162gr A-Max bullet at less than maximum velocity. The first 2 deer were shot in the usual manner, just behind the shoulder. Deer ran a few yards, less than 30yds. The last 4 deer were shot using the high-shoulder shot. Ever single one of them dropped like an anvil fell on them DRT. Most of them didn't even quiver. I was quite surprised at just how effective this shot was. It did cause a loss of some meat but that is not an issue for me.

This was a limited experiment but it proved to me that the high-shoulder shot can be very effective at dropping game on-the-spot.

[jcn59]

I shot a 150# buck high on the shoulder blade with a Barnes copper bullet out of a .308 Win.   The bullet glanced off the shoulder blade into the spine & dropped it  DRT.  This appeared to be a 90 degree broadside shot as near as I could tell.

I dropped a similar deer with a 12 ga. slug high shoulder shot but under the spine & it got up & ran away to get shot & tagged by someone else.  The slug missed the shoulder blade but went into the chest cavity, apparently just over the lungs from what I observed during the post-mortem exam.

[S.B.]

I think they're ballistic twins aren't they the .450 and the .45/70? The .450 having a belt?

[WyrTwister]

Hardcast 350g, LBT, LFNGC, @ 1600 fps. Your gun will probably require .460 dia, available from www.beartoothbullets.com and www.montanabulletworks.com You also could use the 400g and 500g but they are not necessary, even for moose. Powders include Allient 2400 and H4895. I'll save you the long story about blood clotting and hemmorhage speed and will only touch on the subject, but, that is the fastest way to kill, if the animal is not overcome and "shock killed" of course.
                  Ever see a shark attack victim, of course you have, thats the person with one leg or one arm and/or teeth marks all over thier body, they'll even tell you about how bloody it was. Blood has clotting agents in it that react in case of trauma, if your arm gets bit off by a shark there is a good chance you won't bleed out immediately because the truma is so severe clotting is immediate as there is no where for it to go, same goes for legs. Both carry MAJOR arteries. Now if some one stabbed you in your leg and sliced open you femoral artery your going to bleed out pretty quick becuase the trauma was not too severe to create that major clotting/shock effect. Clotting agents are at work here, but, they allow blood to flow as to flush the forign matter and keep the wound clean while you address the problem. If that piercing effect happens to a heart/lung area blood pressure will drop to zero and rapid hemmorhaging literally saps strength to were the victim passes out and expires.
   These LBT bullets work off this principle, cut a hole .75"-1.25" through the vitals and hemmorhage speed is fast, too much damage, ie: 1.5-3" hole and we're back to the high tail run, too little,ie; .5" or less pin hole, and we get the same thing, of course the animal dies, but it will take a second as hemmorhage is slow.
Thats the short version.
        My 280g, LBT, WFNGC bullet, @ 1250 fps through, from .44 mag,  the lungs of a CHARGING wild boar made him stop, drop, and roll right back down where he came from. Blood was every where. I also ate up to the hole as there was no bloodshot meat.

     I read your post , but there was a lot of it that went over my head .   :-(

     I load home cast .460" bullets from the Lee 405 grain HB mold for my Marlin .45-70 .

     I am not really a hunter , mostly a plinker and / or target shooter .

     But I would like to know , with this bullet cast HARD , would it work well on game . 

     Loaded to BP velocity ?

     Loaded to Marlin velocity ?

     My guess is it starts out about the same diameter as a .30-06 after it expands .

     And I am thinking it will have good penetration even at BP velocity ?

     AS far as the original question that started this thread , sounds like the bullet did what it is suppose to ?

     Not much more that you can do ?  .50 BMG ?  A RPG ?

     If you reload , the .450 Marlin holds little or no advantage over .45-70 .  That I can discern .

God bless
Wyr

[NATTY BUMPO]

My humble opinion would be that you need to try a lighter bullet.  If you handload, try loading up the Speer 300 gr bullet and see what kind of results you get.  That Hornady 350 FP is a fairly stiffly constructed bullet, and you may not be getting an optimum energy transfer on a 140 lb deer.  That's just one more reason why I prefer the .45-70...a far greater variety of factory loads available for it.  If you don't reload, then your options are those already outlined...try for shoulder or spine shots, or mebbe a neck shot.  A shoulder or spine shot should break it down right there, although a shoulder shot tends to destroy meat.  I have no experience with neck shots, or their efficiency, and thus I will demur on advocating or condemning them.  You're certainly using enough cartridge, but you may need to tweek the bullet employed to get better results.  As noted, heart and lung shots usually result in the critters doing some running before succumbing. 

If you reload, you could try a gaschecked hardcast and go for shoulder shots.  Those hardcast lead bullets don't destroy as much meat as the jacketed, and often you can 'eat right up to the hole'.  That might be a compromise solution.  They also provide more than ample penetration on just about anything.

[Cottonwood]

What Nanya and others are saying about shoulder shots is basically true.  Take a look at this web link http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cspence2/whitetaildeerms.pdf you will see that in one picture where the inner vitals are shown with the bone structure of the whitetail deer.  Then look at the picture where it only shows the bone structure where the neck vertebrae comes down thru the back side of the shoulder blades.  The front legs of a deer are not attached with ball and socket like that of an elk or other animal, and that is why when field dressing a deer out you can just use a knife to cut up between the blade of the shoulder and the rest of the deer.

You can see where to place your shot in these pictures, which will land your doing damage to the spinal/nerves etc, hence instant death or soon there after.

MSP is also very correct, again hitting the spine/nerve area enhances greater nerve damage and pretty much a smack down effect right away.

And yes Dee, the good ol 30-30 still works real well, as we have one company here in my area that is doing some great things with them http://www.grizzlycustom.com/info/