1st 450marlin kill-NOT THRILLED, NEED OPINIONS

[Bob50j]

Hello All,

I bought an 1895Marlin in 450 for this deer season after years of hunting w/ a shotgun. I hated every minute of having to use a shotgun, but loved the knockdown power. I went with the 450 because it appeared to be the best option in a rifle to give me the knockdown I wanted to retain. I have a couple of neighbors here in NY who won't allow anyone on, even to look for a wounded deer.
My 1st kill with the new gun was a doe, dressing a bit over 140lbs. She was feeding just 25 yards away, totally calm. On the shot she took off as if not hit. I was dumbfounded.  I found hair and a bit of blood at the site, but not much. After 20 yards I found good blood, but she managed to travel almost 125 yards before going down. She ended her life just 10 yards from my property line. The bullet went in just behind the shoulder, blew out an off rib, leaving a large exit wound and ripped apart 2 lobes of the lung.
My question is, is this normal reaction from whitetails when using the standard factory load? Has anyone else had either better or worse experiences? Now, before anyone starts flaming me, I know one example doesn't tell me hardly anything about this cartridge/bullets potential. That's why I'm asking for other's experiences. I'm thinking this bullet is possibly too stout for deer. Granted, a 458 hole in and out is bigger than many bullets will give, even with great expansion, but does the expansion of, say, a hollowpoint give more shock/energy transfer?
I reload my own usually and plan on loading in order to make some plinking/practice loads. Does anyone have advice on a bullet I should be looking at for better performance? Does anyone use hollowpoints, and what sort of kills have you seen with them?
I appreciate any help, as I'm totally surprised, given the circumstances, that this deer didn't just drop in her tracks. I look forward to hearing what anyone thinks.
Bob

[NONYA]

you could shoot a deer with a 416 rem mag throught the lungs and have it run that far,if you want to knock a deer down start breaking some bones like the front shoulders or the spine,if you shoot a deer in the center of the shoulder with your rifle it should break both shoulders and keep it from getting very far,heart/lung shotss are never reliable knock down shots.

[45/70fan]

I shoot a 45/70 handloaded to 450 levels with 300gr Rem hollow points. I've shot 5 deer with this load and everyone has dropped where it stood.  I shot one with the new Hornady LeverEvolution and it dropped also. This may just be luck but until one runs off I'll swear by this old thumper.

[MSP Ret]

I also have expierence with a 45/70 but not with the newer "hot-rod" .450 Marlin which is supposed to be as good as the old 45-70. The 45-70 sure knocks them down dead in thier tracks with the neck shots I use. I also agree that the shot placemant had a lot to do with that deer running so far.
You shot the deer from 25 yards away? Why shoot for the lungs? I always try to shoot deer in the neck, over many years I have only had to track one deer a long way and that was a shot similar to yours, I was a young hunter and an older hunter told me my one shot drop dead on the spot kill the first day was a "bad shot" I asked him why and he said because it was neck shot. I had been shooting deer in the neck for a couple of years with great results and little bloodshot and wasted meat but he was veteran at camp, in fact a part owner, and I was the new younger guy. The next day I shot an 8 point that dressed out to 201, and tracked him a loooong way through a swamp and snow covered woods because I listened to that old timer. I finally got the deer with tracking help from others at camp. I later asked the old timer why he said a neck shot was a "bad shot", now I want you to realize I may never kill as many deer as this old timer had up until then, and he is still hunting as far as I know. Well his respose to me was "I can't hit them in the neck!!!".
His thought was that a neck shot was only for a good shot to attempt!!! If you can do it, and at 25 yards you should be able to hit a deer in the neck by throwing a rock, try a better shot than shooting the deer in the lungs. I don't think it's the gun, that .450 Marlin should be just about as good as our 45/70's and they sure work great!!! Perhaps try a different loading but I am sure you are not underpowered!!....<><....  

[dpastordan]

I have friends that hunt Mule Deer and Caribou.  They are almost guaranteed to drop in their tracks when shot from what I have been told.  Most big game tends to run when hurt.   White tails and elk have a habit of running off unless hit through the shoulders, spine, neck, or head.  My first whitetail deer was hit with a .243 thru the lungs and ran 40 yards.  My last deer, hit with a .30-30 and 170 gr bullet [also shot thru the lungs] was the only game animal I have shot that dropped in its tracks.  I spent a week in Wisconsin during deer season.  My uncle shot a doe near dusk and we couldn't find her for 3 days.  She ran 25 yards and landed under a brush pile.  She was hit with a .270 130 gr thru both lungs.  I did have a friend who used a 7mm Rem. Mag. on the small whitetails in Eastern NC and lost a couple of deer.  Load was too fast and bullet was too tough.  Tracked the deer over a mile than the blood trailed thinned out.  The .450 is probably alright.  A good exit hole will usually leave a good blood trail.

[NONYA]

I seen a mule deer cover 100 yards with a hole through his heart from a 7 mag,no big game drops in its tracks every time,especially when you are shooting heart/lung shots.

[Bob50j]

Ok, maybe I'm asking too much from any rifle cartridge/bullet. I'm used to the shotgun, starting with the old lead pumkin balls to todays modern sabot loads. I'm deer hunting 33 years like this and the results with lung shot deer have been nothing short of spectacular. All that and no wasted meat, although I'll grant you a neck shot ruins very little also. I guess I expected the 450(45/70 same thing) to perform equally.

45/70fan, what level do you load those 300gr. HP's to? Are you at maximum, which I guess would equal or maybe even slightly better the 450?

[wncchester]

I have no experience with the 450 but the damage you describe sounds like the bullet certainly did it's job. 

I too like the heart/lung shots because it has little meat loss.  But they do tend to run a bit before they pass out, usually at full speed, and fall in a skid with the head laid back towards the hind legs.  My deer usually drop within 30 to 50 yards but a bit further isn't a surprise.  If you consider the speed at which they can run, covering 100 yards in maybe 4 or 5 seconds, that's still pretty near instant death isn't it?   

Dropping deer in their tracks, with any caliber, usually requires a central nervous system hit, a  spine or head shot (or a grenade launcher!) and that's somewhat chancy.  The last time I tried a head shot the critter lifted its head  at the instant I fired.  Missed and didn't get a second shot.  But they can't move the boiler room so fast and that's what I usually aim for.

I think your rifle did pretty well.

[southern utah]

I have one of the 450s but it has been a safe queen for a few years. There is a lot of talk about the new Evolution ammo. I beleive it is a hollow point.

450 Marlin 325 gr Evolution 82750
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd
2225/3572 1887/2569 1585/1813 1331/1278   
 
Trajectory (inches)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd
-1.7 3.0 -2.2 -21.3   
 

[LEO]

I have no experience with the 450 but I have shot a bunch of deer with various calibers and they don't all drop at the shot with the shot you described usually they will run a little ways.  The shoulder or neck shot will almost always drop them in their tracks.  But the trade off is a loss of meat, less obviously with the neck shot.  I go for the heart lung shot usually because I know they will not run far if they run at all and I don't have the trespass issue you have to deal with.  I have seen a couple of deer shot with the 300 grain Seirra HP out of a 45-70 and the damage was incredible you might want to look at that if you are not satisfied with the bullet you are using.  But as you said one deer is a very limited sample.

[45/70fan]

Bob50j,  I use the level 2 loads of Reloader 7 and H4198, these are equal to the 450.  I don't have my load book in front of me but I'll PM them to ya later. These 300gr hollow points really expand, they exit as big as a baseball. My brother shot a deer hitting the last rib and it all but gutted the deer. Make sure you do a chest or neck shot only if you don't want to ruin a lot of meat.

[swampthing]

Hardcast 350g, LBT, LFNGC, @ 1600 fps. Your gun will probably require .460 dia, available from www.beartoothbullets.com and www.montanabulletworks.com You also could use the 400g and 500g but they are not necessary, even for moose. Powders include Allient 2400 and H4895. I'll save you the long story about blood clotting and hemmorhage speed and will only touch on the subject, but, that is the fastest way to kill, if the animal is not overcome and "shock killed" of course.
                  Ever see a shark attack victim, of course you have, thats the person with one leg or one arm and/or teeth marks all over thier body, they'll even tell you about how bloody it was. Blood has clotting agents in it that react in case of trauma, if your arm gets bit off by a shark there is a good chance you won't bleed out immediately because the truma is so severe clotting is immediate as there is no where for it to go, same goes for legs. Both carry MAJOR arteries. Now if some one stabbed you in your leg and sliced open you femoral artery your going to bleed out pretty quick becuase the trauma was not too severe to create that major clotting/shock effect. Clotting agents are at work here, but, they allow blood to flow as to flush the forign matter and keep the wound clean while you address the problem. If that piercing effect happens to a heart/lung area blood pressure will drop to zero and rapid hemmorhaging literally saps strength to were the victim passes out and expires.
   These LBT bullets work off this principle, cut a hole .75"-1.25" through the vitals and hemmorhage speed is fast, too much damage, ie: 1.5-3" hole and we're back to the high tail run, too little,ie; .5" or less pin hole, and we get the same thing, of course the animal dies, but it will take a second as hemmorhage is slow.
Thats the short version.
        My 280g, LBT, WFNGC bullet, @ 1250 fps through, from .44 mag,  the lungs of a CHARGING wild boar made him stop, drop, and roll right back down where he came from. Blood was every where. I also ate up to the hole as there was no bloodshot meat.

[Swany]

To start with your .450 is nothing more than the factories hot rodded 45-70 (450 case capacity vs 45-70 the 45-70 wins) to give big bores a safe factory load that you can't put in an antique not designed for the pressures. Also it is meant as a lever option capable of taking very large game with factory ammo. The same ammo will as you've proven walk through a white tail with ease. You'll find your boiler room shots with a handloaded 300 gn HP will do a good knock down and stay put round out of the .450. Start with RX7 and go from there.

[Zachary]

All of the above is true.  That said, try the new Hornady evolution ammo - it's a 325 grain bullet that expands quicker than most harder bullets.

Zachary

[jd45]

The Hornady LeverEvolution ammo has a polymer tip to enable safe loading in tube mags, with a side benefit of at least another 100yds effective range, so it's not a hollwpoint, tho when it strikes the target medium, the tip must enhance expansion of the bullet to equal that of a hollowpoint. I went to their website & ran the video, but they didn't go into detail on the expansion of it. This is just my guess based on how I understand other polymer tipped
 bullets to work. JD45

[Bob50j]

Thanks guys,
I've used the polymer tip bullets out of a 30-06 out West, for Antelope and smallish Mulies. The results were, as you guys suggest, spectacular. I do like to handload, tho, so I was leaning towards the HP's, since hornady doesn't sell their leverevolution bullets as components.
I would have liked to own the 45/70, but there were only 2 1895's available in my area, one in each caliber, and my brother got the 45/70. Since I'm impatient and didn't want to order one, I went with the 450. From what I see, as far as the game is concerned, given handloads, they won't know the difference.

What a great thing these forums are. When you live in a state like NY, and have the oportunity to only kill one or maybe two deer a year, if you're lucky, it's tough to get the experience needed to decide if your cartridge/bullet is really effective. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Bob

[jd45]

I don't think you'll go wrong with Hornady's new ammo, Bob..............I wish they'd offer a +P .45 Colt cartridge using that bullet. I'm using a couple of 1892 replica's for deer & I'd like the advantage of expansion & extra range it'd provide. I'll have to call them & see if they'll consider adding it to their line. Merry Christmas, JD45

[John Y Cannuck]

I think your answer lies in finding a more frangible bullet.
IMO The cartridge performed just as it was supposed to, and so did the bullet you were using.
try finding a bullet a bit lighter, faster, and softer.

[Lloyd Smale]

deers dead and in the freezer. Bullet and gun worked!

[Winter Hawk]

I also like the neck shot, up close to the head.  The only deer I shot which ran any distance (80 yards) was with a classic heart-lung shot with a .30-06 at 100 yards paced distance.  Every one of the rest, and I fed the family on deer meat in SE Alaska for years. were one shot to the neck.  They went down like they were hit over the head with a baseball bat! 

Besides, I hate to waste that heart.  The heart and liver are the first things my wife fixes from a deer, and they can't be beat!

-WH-

[yellowtail3]

I appreciate any help, as I'm totally surprised, given the circumstances, that this deer didn't just drop in her tracks. I look forward to hearing what anyone thinks.
Bob

I think that sometimes they just don't fall. Heck, I shot a runt buck a few years ago through the ribs this a load of 000 buck, and he ran about fifty-sixty yards. And last year I shot a beautiful 8-pointer through the heart with a 240 .44 XTP bullet out of muzzleloader - he ran 75 yards. Go figure. After several years of using a muzzleloader, I got a Marlin 336 mid-way through this season. My results thus far:

Deer 1 - young buck - shot him head-on. Ran off apparently unhurt; found dark blood, trail petered out, looked two hours. Found two days later, in  one direction I didn't go. Bullet entered chest, excited ham. Bad shot.

Deer 2 - 3-pt buck, broadside at about 40-50 yards; deer took off & ran a loop about 40-50 yards and fell. Lung and heart both hit. Good shot & performance.

Deer 3 - Buck - just a few yards from tree at dusk, steep downward angle. Bullet went down through shoulder, just missing spine, got the front front of a lung. Deer dropped straight down, kicked a minute, but never got up. Good.

Deer 4 - nice-sized doe at dusk, hit just behind shoulder. She dropped straight down, hardly kicked. Bang/flop, dead right there. Perfect double-lung, just above heart. That was the first time I'd used the 170gr load (others were 150gr corlokt). I think I like the 170, though I don't know that it makes a diff.

Deer 5, last of season, this morning - an even bigger doe - I flubbed the shot and hit a little too far aft, hitting last rib. She ran a few yards into thick stuff and lay down - I levered in another round and shot her in the neck right below head.

Where you hit them matters vastly more than what you hit them with, and sometimes they just run off. I think if you want them to fall RIGHT NOW every time, you need to very carefully hit spine or head or high shoulder. I thought I liked I the high shoulder, but now go for lungs - it's a bigger target, they won't go far, and you don't pulverize any much meat. If they're broadside at an angle, aim for the off shoulder. I aim for about 1/3 to 1/2 way up from bottom of chest.

I really, really like this Marlin; 30-30 is a good cartridge. 

[sig232]

Interesting how the ole Marlin 30-30 just brings home the meat! Still a wonderfull woods rifle after all these years and does not have that kick in the butt that you get from both the big 45-70 and 450 or 444 for that matter.

I think the 38-55 is is sweet woods gun for deer if you can find a nice one.

[Pinkerton]

I'm not the most experienced out there but have taken mule deer, whitetails and antelope in South Dakota and Wyoming at all sorts of distances with 357, 44 mag, 308B***M, 270WSM, 300Sav. 300Wby, 358JDJ, 444marlin. For some reason, I've found that aiming just 1/2 to 2/3 up from the bottom of the chest just behind the line of the shoulder on a broadside shot has given good bang/flop for me everytime I do it. That placement seems to take out upper lobes of lungs, usually doesn't hit the heart but destroys the large blood vessels and seems to transfer "shock" to the spine. Don't know, it just works great for me.

[Swampman]

I shoot everything through the front shoulders.  I don't have to find it.

[NONYA]

What a crazy concept!If you want them to drop BREAK BONES!You break both front shoulders and that animal isnt going very far.

[Ratltrap]

Breaking bones might keep deer from running far, but I like to eat my venison. 'Course in your situation half a deer might be better than trying to get it away from your neighbor.

If you're looking for a "bang-flop" kill, there has been some study of how that happens. The study I saw was done by vets involved in culling Cape Buffalo herds somewhere in southern Africa. As I understand it, to get an immediate kill you need to either disconnect the electrical system (high spine/brain shot) or hit the circulatory system when the heart valve that sends blood to the brain is open (i.e. cause a stroke). I've taken some head and neck shots on deer at point blank range with good results, but personally I'm not confident enough in my shooting to hit their little brain or spine from any distance and I haven't figured out how to time their heartbeats, so (as you did) when I can I shoot deer in the ribs behind the front shoulder about 1/3 of the way up the body and plan on tracking a bit. Though that might not always work in your situation. I'll also say that some of the most specatacular bang-flops I've had were with centered ballistic tip type bullets from a high powered rifle. Must have had the right valve open at the time.

But overall, I'd say you've made a good selection to replace your sluggun.

[shilo]

It is amazing the amount of damage a deer can take and the distance it can go. 54cal muzzleloader with 435gr maxi-hunter over 90grs of powder at 20yds - right behind the shoulder. Ran 120 some yds. 12ga copper solids - 3 through the ribs at 35 to 50yds. Using 11/87.  Ran 80yds. I could keep going on with examples like this, but in general it seem that through the ribs and they run alittle ways.

[NONYA]

shooting a deer throught the center of the front shoulder may damage,what maybe 2lbs of edible meat?

[lgm270]

Get a .270 WCF and use 130 grain Nosler Partition bullets with 60 grains of H-4831 or RL-22. In more than 30 years of  deer hunting, I've never had to chase a solidly hit (i.e. heart/lung shot) deer for more than a few yards from where it was hit. 

The longest chase I"ve had     was a heart shot wild boar that went 50 yards.  But to have a solidly hit deer go 125 yards. That's more than the length of a foot ball field.  It's never happened to me with the .270/130.

[billy_56081]

 Ratltrap I read the same thing. They were even using the "marginal" .338 winchester. It was a very in formative article. I had wondered what caused the bang flop the few times I had seen it on game.

  Mythbusters did a segment on "blown away" and proved that knockdown power of a round is a complete falicey. Even a 12 guage slug barley made the hog carcass wiggle.