Author Topic: Carying a 1911 (Read 2430 times)

Greeenriver · « **on:** December 23, 2006, 10:27:01 AM »

Can anyone tell me how safe it is to cary a Colt Delta 1911 with the hammer down on a loaded chamber?? This is, I believe, a 1980's series gun in 10mm.

Reason is, I've never been comfortable with a "Cocked and Locked" cary, and I shoot SA revolvers WAY more than any auto and I can't stop myxelf from reaching my thumb up to manualy cock the hammer on any gun I shoot, nor do I have any wish to change this reflex win shooting a pistol. It's as automatic as breathing when I pick up a pistol for the first shot to thumb back the hammer.

So, is it safe to carry a series 80 Colt 1911 with the hammer down on a loaded chamber or not??

Thanks in advance for any replies offered.

Greeenriver

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #1 on:** December 23, 2006, 10:39:02 AM »

no! If your not comfortable with cocked and locked carry it with an empty chamber and rack the slide when presenting or find a differnt gun to carry. 1911s were meant to be carried cocked and locked.

Greeenriver · « **Reply #2 on:** December 23, 2006, 01:08:40 PM »

Thanks, Lloyd. That's what I was looking for, a simple answer to a simple question. I had heard or read somewhere that a series 80 Colt had a fireing pin block that required the trigger to be pulled in order for the fireing pin to contact the primer, but I didn't know if this was true or not. That's why I asked. It's refreshing to get a simple answer.

Thank you. And Merry Christmas and best wishes from my family to all of you reading this for a very Happy New Year.

Greeenriver

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #3 on:** December 24, 2006, 12:35:47 AM »

80 series guns do have a firing pin block but i wouldnt NEVER trust it to carry with a round under the hammer.

John R. · « **Reply #4 on:** December 24, 2006, 06:20:03 AM »

If you're ever going to have an AD it will be carrying a 1911 hammer down on a loaded chamber. You have to cock the gun to fire it (if thumb slips pistol goes bang) then you have to let the hammer down on a loaded chamber (if thumb slips pistol goes bang) Llyod is absolutely right, the 1911 was meant to be carried cocked and locked. If your not comfortable with that, carry it as Llyod advised, hammer down on Empty chamber. Simply present the gun, rack the slide and you're ready to shoot.

Mikey · « **Reply #5 on:** December 24, 2006, 08:39:10 AM »

Greenriver: I suppose you can carry an 80 series 1911 with the hammer down but you might as well carry a brick for all the good it will do you to carry it that way. If you are more comfortable with an 1873 type single action then carry one of those and feel comfortable with your thumb taking the extra 1.5 seconds difference between a draw and fire with a cocked and locked 1911 or a draw and fire with an uncocked 1911 - it's only your life, or that of someone else who may depend on you that hangs in the balance of that 1.5 seconds.

Since you have no wish to change from reaching with your thumb to manually cock your hammer then don't waste time on a DA only semi-auto becuase your thumb will probably get in the way. Stick with your single action design if that is what suits you best. There are a multitude of SA revolvers out there that will meet the same needs a 10mm 1911 would meet. Mikey.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #6 on:** December 24, 2006, 08:50:57 AM »

theres merit in what Mikey says. Theres nothing faster for a first shot at a bad guy then a single action. Been proven over and over.

257 roberts · « **Reply #7 on:** December 24, 2006, 02:07:13 PM »

I carry my series 80 Colt Officer 45acp with the hammer down on a loaded chamber(done it for a bunch of years) maybe I should rethink it

williamlayton · « **Reply #8 on:** December 25, 2006, 12:05:52 AM »

Charlie Miller, of the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame, carried his old commercial Colt with the hammer on half-cock and the grip safty tied down with raw hide----stuffed in the front of his pants.
When asked, by a young RO at the academy, if he didn't think this was dangerous Charlie replied "Why if this old thing wasn't dandgerous I would't carry the SOB."
Blessings

Mikey · « **Reply #9 on:** December 25, 2006, 12:24:42 PM »

257roberts - please do rethink your mode of carry.

williamlayton - about the only reason a 1911 carried on half cock won't detonate a round is because the hammer won't fall far enough if it slips off half cock. Maybe Miller knew this - maybe he didn't. The 1911 is not designed to be carried on half cock, especially with the grip safety straped down. Some of us used to carry the 1911 with the grip safety taped down but with the hammer cocked and the slide safety on - also safe.

The proven, most effective and efficient mode of carry for the 1911 and 1911A1 is chambered, cocked and locked. Mikey.

Greeenriver · « **Reply #10 on:** December 25, 2006, 07:07:50 PM »

Thanks, all, for the replies. I do feel much more comfortable with a Single Action than ony other kind of pistol, revolver or semi-auto, and I probibly will just continue carrying eather the Single Six in 32H&R or one of my 45's. It just seemed like a shame to have this 10mm Colt arround and not be using it more than I do. I gess it will continue to stay just where it is now, right beside my bed every nite. There's something to be said for muscle memory. I shoot a semi auto maybe once or twice every five or six months, and a Single Action revolver probable, depending on the month, 200 to 500 rds a month. This is spread out over several SA's from 22's to 45's.

I also agree with Lloyd that there is nothing faster for the first shot than a SA revolver, if you know how to use it. As far as the time diference from Cocked and locked to thumbing the hammer back, I can see no diference there, as the hammer is back and ready to shoot by the time the frt sight hits the target from the holster. Realy, for me, it's quicker to thumb back the hammer than to try to thumb back the hammer and then switch to the safety, as all my shooting for the last several years has been done single action.

Again, I thank you all for the replies, and hope that you all had a very MErry Christmas and please accept my best wishes for a Happy New Year. I'm out of here on Wensday for North Carolina for the rest of the winter. See ya all in the spring, although I may be able to get on-line down there, if I'm lucky.

Greeenriver

JHT · « **Reply #11 on:** December 27, 2006, 11:48:56 PM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on December 24, 2006, 08:50:57 AM

Theres nothing faster for a first shot at a bad guy then a single action. Been proven over and over.

Lloyd, I wonder if the above quote is in fact accurate or is it your attempt to make a point. Not a challenge, but rather my attempt to understand if what you say is factually correct or not. For example, why would having to first cock the hammer before discharging the weapon be quicker than just pulling the trigger on a DAO semi or pulling the trigger on a double action revolver?
JHT

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #12 on:** December 28, 2006, 12:46:06 AM »

its been proven a few times. I should restate the answer slightly though. What they refer to as fastest with a first shot. Is clearing a hoster aiming and making a scoring shot. The single actions are no doubt the fastest gun from a holster (im refering to a duty holster not a high tech front break gaming holster) The hammer is cocked as the gun is comming up to point and you cant start pulling a da trigger till you have your gun up and for instinct shooting for most people nothing points as naturaly as a single action. There are experts that are blindingly fast with autos and DA too but i read not to long ago that the record for a first shot hit is still with a sa colt. Personaly heres my take on it. I think alot of gun owners that carry ccw have kind of live in a walter middy dream world. The envision themselves in some big gun battle against a whole gang of enemys. In all reality 75 percent of the incounters a civilian would ever be in are going to end the minute you present ANY gun. Another 20 percent are going to be over after one shot and the other 5 percent either you missed and your dead or the second shot probably missed anyway and if you have a lick of sense youve allready made it plenty far away from what was trying to hurt you. I centainly cant imagine many senerios where you would need more the the 5 shots in a single action at least in an altercation that actually happened while you were awake. I give ccw classes and have my preferences for consealed carry and give recomendations as to what to carry differntly for just about every case. As an inexperienced lady doenst want the same gun an experienced handgunner would. Bottom line is you want to be very fimilar with your weapon and a guy that naturaly draws and cocks a single action is much better off with it then if he has to think to find the safety on a 1911. I live in a real rural area and the chances of being in a gun fight are about nill. I carry more for woods bumbing and the chance id run accross something dangerous in the woods (like a beer can) so about half the time you see me carry its a single action. Ive got two 4 inch round butted vaqueros in 500 linebaugh that get carried quite a bit. They are plenty small enough to hide in a pancake holster and i know one thing i wouldnt want to be some smart ass kid in a 7-11 staring down the tube of one of those!!

44 Man · « **Reply #13 on:** December 29, 2006, 09:12:14 AM »

Well said Lloyd, I agree with every word you said! And Col. Cooper pretty well set the standard on the 1911 and how to carry it and why. He felt the 1911 was unsafe carried in any other mode than 'Cocked and locked' and gave many reasons why other modes are accident prone. I can't imagine how akward a 1911 is to try and cock one handed as you draw it. You have to open your whole grip to get on that hammer! Then you are back to the issue of having to lower the hammer on a live round to get there in the first place. My only ever accidental discharge (or as Col. Cooper would call it, a negligent discharge) was trying to lower the hammer on a live round and I can't for the life of me remember why I was trying to do that at the time. I alway carry cocked and locked. Always have, and always will. 44 Man

PeterF. · « **Reply #14 on:** December 29, 2006, 10:37:18 AM »

I, too, have had a long-term love/hate relationship with cocked & locked carry. I'll buy that it's extremeley safe as long as the safety of on (safer than a Glock, for instance), but it just seems too aesy for the afety to be knocked off inadvertantly somehow.
Take a look at Cylinder & Slide's Safety Fast System (SFS) ... at www.cylinder-slide.com. It's an aftermarket safety system for 1911s and BHPs. Read some of the articles about how it works. You rack the slide to load a round (and cock), put the safety ON, which locks "the works"; then you can push the hammer forward (without touching the trigger. Everything is locked up at this point. To fire, you just swipe the safety down, which re-cocks the hammer and unlocks the sear. I haven't used it myslef, but it seems like a pretty sweet solution the the C&L "problem".

Mikey · « **Reply #15 on:** December 29, 2006, 11:46:38 AM »

Lloyd: I agree with you completely and second the 44 Man.

PeterF: Now that's pretty interesting but I wonder.......... Mikey.

Heavy C · « **Reply #16 on:** December 29, 2006, 12:54:34 PM »

When I started carrying my 1911 I had a similar aversion to "cocked and locked". However when you examine the sequence of events that would have to take place in order for it to accidentally discharge; well it's just not going to happen. I carry "cocked and Locked" 100% of the time.

williamlayton · « **Reply #17 on:** December 29, 2006, 01:32:48 PM »

Cocked and Locked is the acceptable method and the way it was designed.
Blessings

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #18 on:** December 29, 2006, 03:52:55 PM »

guess im not seeing the advantage here as if the safety gets accidently swiped of it recocks the gun anyway. A better option for someone that is nervous about his safety getting swipped of is first stay away from amidexterous safetys as its the safety on the side of your body thats probably going to swipe off and then if your nervous about it carry it in a thumb break holster that blocks the cocked hammer

Quote from: PeterF. on December 29, 2006, 10:37:18 AM

I, too, have had a long-term love/hate relationship with cocked & locked carry. I'll buy that it's extremeley safe as long as the safety of on (safer than a Glock, for instance), but it just seems too aesy for the afety to be knocked off inadvertantly somehow.
Take a look at Cylinder & Slide's Safety Fast System (SFS) ... at www.cylinder-slide.com. It's an aftermarket safety system for 1911s and BHPs. Read some of the articles about how it works. You rack the slide to load a round (and cock), put the safety ON, which locks "the works"; then you can push the hammer forward (without touching the trigger. Everything is locked up at this point. To fire, you just swipe the safety down, which re-cocks the hammer and unlocks the sear. I haven't used it myslef, but it seems like a pretty sweet solution the the C&L "problem".

Mikey · « **Reply #19 on:** December 30, 2006, 01:51:05 AM »

Lloyd: that was something I was wondering about but I think there might be a bit too much tension on the spring action of that safety mechanism necessary to recock the hammer to get swiped off that easily. I also wondered what the effect of having spring tension on that safety would be in bringing the pistol ready to fire. I don't know if it would be 'a little' or 'a lot'. Mikey.

44 Man · « **Reply #20 on:** December 30, 2006, 04:18:38 AM »

How many people have a averison to carrying a 'cocked and locked' 1911 but feel perfectly at home with a Ruger .22 auto, Colt Woodsman, or Browning Buckmark? They are ALL 'cocked and locked' guns BUT YOU CAN'T SEE THE HAMMER! It's inside the slide! If you can carry your Ruger .22 auto and not give it a thought, why all the fuss about a 1911? 44 Man.

JHT · « **Reply #21 on:** December 30, 2006, 07:40:31 AM »

Unless I'm missing some mechanical aspect, of the difference between a 'cocked and locked' 1911 and 22 semi-auto which makes a critical diference in safety of carry, I have to agree with 44 Man!!! Just because you can't see it does not mean it will not bite you.

JHT

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #22 on:** December 30, 2006, 10:21:13 AM »

good point 44 man!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #23 on:** December 30, 2006, 10:24:10 AM »

Mikey i have pulled cocked and locked guns with an ambridexteros safety out of a holster and found the safey off. I would say its from rubbing on the back side of the holster. It never really bothered me enough to pull them off as theres other safteys on them but when i carry one like that I do check them occasionaly and when i buy one other then a 5 inch target gun i try to stay away from them.

Quote from: Mikey on December 30, 2006, 01:51:05 AM

Lloyd: that was something I was wondering about but I think there might be a bit too much tension on the spring action of that safety mechanism necessary to recock the hammer to get swiped off that easily. I also wondered what the effect of having spring tension on that safety would be in bringing the pistol ready to fire. I don't know if it would be 'a little' or 'a lot'. Mikey.

Mikey · « **Reply #24 on:** December 31, 2006, 02:37:25 AM »

LLoyd - hmmmm, that's interesting. I do not use the ambidexterous safeties but I can see how they might dis-engage. I haven't ever had that problem with the GI safeties. I wonder if it is caused by the right side lever impacting on something or the left side lever (due to a longer lever length disengaging itself as it is slid into the holster???

Very excellent points 44 Man and JHT, thanks. Mikey.

drdougrx · « **Reply #25 on:** December 31, 2006, 04:05:48 AM »

Interesting thread......one more thing that I've dealt with is when I carry an HP. The safety in both the guns I own never clicks on or off and doesnt feel positive. I've had both to Cylinder and Slide and they have never come back any better than when I sent them, so, I use a thumb break with the strap over the hammer. Jusy my 2 cents.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #26 on:** December 31, 2006, 08:09:43 AM »

Mikey id guess its the right side hitting the back of the holster that does it. Drdougrx I too usually use a thumbreak holster unless im carrying in the waist band.

Quote from: Mikey on December 31, 2006, 02:37:25 AM

LLoyd - hmmmm, that's interesting. I do not use the ambidexterous safeties but I can see how they might dis-engage. I haven't ever had that problem with the GI safeties. I wonder if it is caused by the right side lever impacting on something or the left side lever (due to a longer lever length disengaging itself as it is slid into the holster???

Very excellent points 44 Man and JHT, thanks. Mikey.

HiPressure · « **Reply #27 on:** January 03, 2007, 04:45:43 PM »

I've carried various 1911's over the last 17 years and always in condition one. An early experience with wiping the safety off while disengaging a thumb-break led me to using open top holsters. Somewhere along the way I figured out that you can "tune" the detent on a safety to greatly reduce the chance of this happening. My simple opinion is that condition one is the only method that allows for all the inherent "safety" devices on the 1911 to be properly engaged. By contrast, I know several people who abhor this carry condition while carrying Glock pistols (semi-cocked and only passive safeties) and continually question the safety of my 1911. My reply is always the same..."your brain, which controls your trigger finger, is the only true safety with ANY firearm, just make sure your brain is in the "on" position". If you can't control your trigger finger, I firmly believe that you should not be carrying a loaded handgun. An unexpected loud bang might be embarrasing while in a controlled environment such as training, but it's still better than possibly killing an innocent bystander and thereby ruining your life.
My opinion only,
HP

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #28 on:** January 03, 2007, 11:38:01 PM »

and a good opinion!

Quote from: HiPressure on January 03, 2007, 04:45:43 PM

I've carried various 1911's over the last 17 years and always in condition one. An early experience with wiping the safety off while disengaging a thumb-break led me to using open top holsters. Somewhere along the way I figured out that you can "tune" the detent on a safety to greatly reduce the chance of this happening. My simple opinion is that condition one is the only method that allows for all the inherent "safety" devices on the 1911 to be properly engaged. By contrast, I know several people who abhor this carry condition while carrying Glock pistols (semi-cocked and only passive safeties) and continually question the safety of my 1911. My reply is always the same..."your brain, which controls your trigger finger, is the only true safety with ANY firearm, just make sure your brain is in the "on" position". If you can't control your trigger finger, I firmly believe that you should not be carrying a loaded handgun. An unexpected loud bang might be embarrasing while in a controlled environment such as training, but it's still better than possibly killing an innocent bystander and thereby ruining your life.
My opinion only,
HP

44 Man · « **Reply #29 on:** January 04, 2007, 08:29:06 AM »

I have also 'tuned' a couple of safetys to have a more positive 'click'. I have McCormick extended safetys on a couple of my Colt's. I have filed a deeper 'notch' where the plunger presses into the safety. Mine require a heavier pressure to release and come off safety with a definate 'snap' that you can even hear. I have not had to do that with any of the stock safetys. 44 Man

It doesn't show where I have filed in this picture, but you can easily see where to notch it a little with a small round file.