Author Topic: two gun battery for africa  (Read 5633 times)

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Offline cetme

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two gun battery for africa
« on: December 23, 2006, 11:56:23 PM »
If I was packing a 338-06 1903 sprinfield with a 22" bbl loaded with barnes bullets  and a marlin 444 lever rifle loaded with LBT hardcast bullets would I be set for plains game and lion and maybe a buffalo tossed in?

Offline JJHACK

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2006, 10:31:15 AM »
These conversations tend to get stupid in short order. I'll not get sucked into the mess this us headed for.

I would not waste one second with a 444 or 45/70 in lever actions for anything dangerous in Africa. Why would anyone spend upwards of 10-15k on a trip like this and not take a bolt action rifle in a cartridge that actually works?
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Offline nasem

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2006, 03:55:19 PM »
while wer being stupid, why don't we get some 44 mag revolvers, and go kill a few elephants, dozen rhinos, some cape buffs, oh  and a lion or two.


Offline Sverre A.

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2006, 01:41:52 AM »
"I would not waste one second with a 45/70 in lever actions for anything dangerous in Africa"

Why?






 

Offline Sverre A.

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2006, 04:29:38 AM »
"while wer being stupid, why don't we get some 44 mag revolvers, and go kill a few elephants, dozen rhinos, some cape buffs"

Well - I don`t know how to kill a buff with a revolver in .44 Mag. - but I can tell you how to do it with a .454  ;)

Offline Sverre A.

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2006, 07:52:50 AM »
JJHACK !

Why?

Offline nasem

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2006, 09:18:52 AM »
if you scroll down in the african hunting forum, you'll see a post in the name of "45-70 vs 416 rigby"

JJ has some of his very strong opinions on the 45-70.....  If you read it, you'll see why he isn't responding to this thread

Offline Sverre A.

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2006, 09:46:40 AM »
 

If I shoot a whitetail with a .375 - of course it is more powerful than a 308 - but will it kill it "more"  ::)?

JJ and other - is some of all of us who have experience with elephants, rhinos etc. - and have his opinion.

Last trip to Zim - we shot some elephants, hippoes and buffaloes - with different calibers and type of guns.
And I can tell you:  It was not the biggest (and) fastest caliber which killed best.

For you guys who want to use your 45-70 - but have been scared after reading "45-70 vs 416 rigby":
Dont`be!! 
It will kill all the dangerous big game within a reasonable distance.

And when you hunt the biggest of them - your shots will be at close range  ;) ;)

(And if you are going to shoot cats in the dark - it will definitly not be at long range).

If you have a Marlin Guide Gun with a system with a ghost-ring, doctersight and the possibility to use a scope when needed - you have a reasonable priced gun which you can use for anything!

 



Offline fknipfer

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2006, 02:54:32 PM »
This African Huntin Forum always tickles me to beyond distraction.  I cannot believe after reading the posts of JJ and other PH from Africa, people would keep asking the question of "why not" take a Marlin .444 or 45/70 to Africa for hunting of Cape Buffalo or bigger game?
Poor ole JJ must go nuts after answering the same questions one hundred different ways.  I believe he says it correctly why spend "10,000 to 15,000 dollars on a trip and not take the correct gun".   
My question is can I take a 22 rifle and do like the eskimo's and sneak up on a cape buffalo when he is sleeping and do him in?  Oh, I think I answered the question it is a herd animal and some of his buddies would warn him, darn.

I don't think I am ever going to Africa for big game hunting but if I did, I would follow my PH advice.  He needs to earn his keep for something else besides saving your a$$ when you shoot something with to small a gun.

Oh well, just my humble opinion.

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Offline nasem

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2006, 04:07:25 PM »
I am no professional hunter by any means; All I have is just some opinions here and there.  However, If I am going to spend more than $2000 on ANY hunt, be it here in North America or another counter, you best bet Im going in there with enough gun to kill anything that walks.

Im pretty sure a 45-70 is a killer, im pretty sure it will kill any animal that walks, but the real question is, is there something better than the 45-70, you bet your bottom dollar there is.....

People used to kill pretty much any animal with a simple 30-06, it probably isn't the smartest choice, but it’s doable.  The same can be said for the 45-70, but the truth is, In my opinion, I just don't see them being more powerful than the other calibers that WERE SPECIFICALLY designed to kill the biggest and baddest (Im referring to the 375 h&h and up).

I speak only from my own knowledge of paper reading and ballistic examinations, I think any caliber from the 416 family is your best choice.  Sure the same can be said about your 375 h&h, but I just feel like a 416 has enough punch to momentarily stun a charging brute to give you enough time to lay the 2nd shot in (maybe even 3rd if need be). 

By the way, I was watching FSN the other day, those PHs were hunting an elephant, as soon as the elephant knew of their location, he turned and RIGHT away charged, he was barely 50 years out, he got to about 15 yards away from the PHs, and one of them laid a shot right in the head (did not hit the brain) but You can see the elephant slowing down and falling on the ground (the shot stunned the hell out of it), by time he tried to shake it off and stand up, he ate a couple more shots from the back up gunners and the PHs, all in the head, that elephant was long gone......  Im not sure what caliber they were using, but looking at the way their shoulders were flying back, it looked like something in the 458+ family.  After watching that show, I was like "OHHH MY GODDDD, If that was me, I woulda pooped my pants"

Offline Sverre A.

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2006, 01:19:09 AM »
"I don't think I am ever going to Africa for big game hunting but if I did, I would follow my PH advice."

It make sense!

In Zim and SA - there are thousands of PH`es.
And I`m sure there are a lot of opinions among them!

So if it should happen that you go for Africa - maybe you will get a PH who have another opinion than JJ.

My outfitter in Zim - shaked his head (almost to a whiplash-level) when he saw that I was going for a buffalo with a revolver in .454 (378 gr. hardcast bullet/1230 fps)
He had been in the buissness for 40 years - but never hunted with somebody who didn`t have a rifle.
So he was not happy for the situation.  He have seen a lot of buffaloes which had ran hundreds of yards with 2 shots from 500 NE and other BigGame calibers.
Are you strange to something - it happens that you are afraid of it!

The 7th day - I got my chance - and the bull fell down after 65 yds run - and died.

The other buffaloes which was shot with .404 and 458 rifles - ran between 100 and 200 yds. before they went down.

A rifle in  45-70 with bullets 400-600 gr. - outpower the "little" 454 - so I have no doubt about this caliber for Big Game.

If you shoot an elephant in the stomach with a 458 or 45/70 - you are going to have some trouble!
If you hit it deadly - you will have your trophy with both calibers.








Offline JJHACK

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2006, 04:04:19 AM »
With a bow and arrow it works just fine as well, if you get the right opportunity.

That seems to be the crux of the situation here, ........the opportunity. Lets say you have a DG hunt that will cost well in excess of 10,000 USD, maybe over 20,000 USD with additional game and air travel, taxidermy , shipping, etc, etc.

Then you arrive in the camp for the 10-14 days, maybe 21 days in Tanzania that you're going to have available for this. Do you want to limit your success to the level of a small arm, archery, or other insufficient cartridge? Or some other novelty type firearm?  Plenty of people do this, they have significant financial means to accomplish these stunts. However most have made several trips before they manage to be successful in truely wild country. Others may be fully canned on only a few hundred acres. There are lots of unknown details you will never know about with only the hunters story to go by.

Then the hunter comes back home and spreads the word he was able to hunt his DG with some limited range novelty weapon. By the time that story is told 10 times many people hearing it are accepting that it is fully adequate and functional choice because "Joe did it".

Well I'm here to tell you that you cannot pose the wild game you're after in the exact situation or position that will work for you. Some people are lucky and manage to do it, some make several trips to finally have success, but you never hear that part of the story,..........You know,... the part about it being his 8th trip to Africa to collect an elephant with a muzzle loader or handgun, bow, etc. You also never hear the stories about the guys who lost the game. For some reason those same guys don't come back boastful of the complete failure of the event, or their novelty weapon choice. It's kinda like the guy bragging about his 700 yard shot on a deer or and elk. My question is always how many did he miss or wound before he finally made one lucky shot? It's only bragging level when you do it 100% of the time, not the one lucky shot out of dozens of them lobbed across the canyon and hoping for the best.

Would you be very comfortable with the steep quartering shot at 75 yards on the last day with these kinds of choices? After a year or more of anticipation and expense, that's a hella long trip home contemplating what could have been if you had the right gun. That's a hella lotta money you just blew away. Now you have to invent some story to tell everyone who kew of your trip why it was a failure to collect your DG.

As a side note here, I knew a fella that hunted with a very good PH and friend of mine in Zim (pre Mugabe era) he did not come home with a buffalo because he could not shoot well. He wounded one and "missed" one? but came home with nothing. Yet when he was back in the states that outfitter and PH were bashed to no end for thier lack of skill, and ability to find him a good bull. Yet in talking to the PH whom I know quite well, this fella had every opportunity to shoot good bulls and had a great time on the trip the whole way. He just froze up and screwed up his shots.  So remember that there are always two sides to the story especially when a less then acceptable weapon is used and the success of the hunter or PH's skill is in question!

Many things are possible, fewer are practical. If folks wish to take a novelty hunting tool for game far outside the designed lines they are certainly welcome to do it. The price is exactly the same whether you shoot it, kill it and find it, Or whether you shoot it kill it and we never find it.

It's your money choose wisely!
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Offline GEMSBUCK

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2006, 07:45:14 AM »
Yes these threads usually go bad PDQ. But it's a boring day at the office so what the heck...
 For the life of me I can't see how anyone can state that a 400gr/ .458 quality bullet @ 2000fps isn't capable of killing a cape buffalo be it shot from a 45-70 or a 458WM. I see no difference in the same bullet traveling at the same speed in performance.
 Can the 45-70 launch a 400gr bullet at 2000 fps? Yes it can Can the 458WM launch the same at 2000 fps? Yes it can. The question should be are you willing to keep your 45-70 shots under 75 yds? Most buffalo are killed at that range or less. But many are killed at 100yds + and that is where the 458WM shines. IMHO if you can get 100 yds, you should be able to get within 75 yds too...but you must be willing to pass the shot with your 45-70 if you just can't.
 As for a 2 gun trip to Africa to hunt both PG and DG a 30-06 will be all that is needed for any of the PG includuding eland with good bullets in 180 gr and proper shot placement. The 375 H&H is enough gun for even elephant and not too much for any PG.
 My personal 2 guncase is loaded with a 338WM and a 458WM. My wife's is either a 7mm08 or a 270 and a 375H&H.

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2006, 08:04:04 AM »
Yes these threads usually go bad PDQ. But it's a boring day at the office so what the heck...
 For the life of me I can't see how anyone can state that a 400gr/ .458 quality bullet @ 2000fps isn't capable of killing a cape buffalo be it shot from a 45-70 or a 458WM. I see no difference in the same bullet traveling at the same speed in performance.
 Can the 45-70 launch a 400gr bullet at 2000 fps? Yes it can Can the 458WM launch the same at 2000 fps? Yes it can. The question should be are you willing to keep your 45-70 shots under 75 yds? Most buffalo are killed at that range or less. But many are killed at 100yds + and that is where the 458WM shines. IMHO if you can get 100 yds, you should be able to get within 75 yds too...but you must be willing to pass the shot with your 45-70 if you just can't.
 As for a 2 gun trip to Africa to hunt both PG and DG a 30-06 will be all that is needed for any of the PG includuding eland with good bullets in 180 gr and proper shot placement. The 375 H&H is enough gun for even elephant and not too much for any PG.
 My personal 2 guncase is loaded with a 338WM and a 458WM. My wife's is either a 7mm08 or a 270 and a 375H&H.

Now I have a question. If you can launch a 400gr bullet at 2000fps from a 45-70 and a 458 win mag, why is it that the 45-70 is only good to 75yds but the 458 is good 100yds+???????

JJ,

Your good posts are getting boring, they come to often! ;D ;D
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Offline jamaldog87

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2006, 11:36:48 AM »
from what i have hear about two gun battery for africa  is a med cal. like the 30/06 or 300 and a heavy cal. like the 375 or 458win. I would have a 444 with hard cast and that new lever ammo and a 375 or 338win mag Savage or 375H&H ENCORE RO HUNTER, rem Model 98,CZ 550 Safari. To me it's better to over kill then under kill for kill that will kill you.
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Offline nasem

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2006, 12:03:51 PM »
If I end up going to africa, actually, I should say WHEN I go to african, my first couple times ever will be when I am still poor and woun't be able to afford any DG hunts.  Im always going to take just 1 rifle with me, or maybe 2 in two different gun cases (incase one gets lost).  One will be in one of the 338s (RUM or win mag or wby, etc), and the secondary (backup) will be in some sort of 30 caliber (most likly 300 win mag).  The one I'll be using for all PG will be the 338 zeroed at 300 yards shooting..... 225 gr swif-a-fram or 225 TSX

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2006, 12:35:52 PM »
If your only going to take plains game rifles and carry an extra as a back up, why wouldn't you carry two in the same cartridge? Then you could develope a load that works well in both and only have to take one type ammo. If one rifle fails, you already have the ammo for it, you don't have to change.
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Offline JJHACK

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2006, 01:43:21 PM »
That's a good plan in theory and uses perfect logic. However it's not legal for one permit holder to bring in two rifles of the same cartridge. An odd law to be sure, but it's the law. The story behind that law is an old one and too long to post up here for my time right now.

I'm not sure how many guys own two identical rifles in the same cartridge either? I think it's an outstanding idea for two hunters to use and bring in the same cartridge then they could share ammo in a pinch, but ........how many handloads developed for a specific rifles throat length and OAL for optimum accuracy will also shoot in another gun?

If the folks doing this each recieved their own permits and co-developed a load that could shoot well in both guns. Maybe not sub MOA in either one, but certainly "minute of Warthog" then this plan is a good one. It's still only one rifle for each guy though. The second one would also have to be the same for each hunter I suppose?

I find a very amusing paradox in these conversations. When folks write posts on these kinds of forums there is usually a very strong opinion about how good certain guns, scopes, rings and bases, ammo. Jjust about anything that can be argued, will be argued in respect to the choices each person makes. I've seen some very bitter debates about how one brand or style is so far superior and more reliable then another. I've heard the tall tales of what brutal treatment their equipment has managed to take over the years and never misfired, fogged up or come loose. It's amazing to read just how each guys equipment choice is the best one and provides the most durable and reliable performance.

Then....................... in the next breath

I need to bring two guns to Africa incase something happens to one of them.

Now I'm not a genius here,  but I see a flaw in the presentation of the first arguement after I read the second one! To this day after 15 years in Africa doing this I've seen only about five memorable equipment failures that caused loss of use for the trip. Three were with Browning Abolts, one with a Ruger that you would have had to see to believe, and one with a scope that may or may not have actually been a failure.

The Abolts are just simply the least reliable rifles I've ever had the displeasure to be around.

The fella with the scope problem could not hit a barn door, so he swapped scopes and barely shot any better with the new scope, but put the blame of the poor shooting on that first scope. It may be true, he missed or wounded everything with the first scope and ony about half with the second scope. I'm a bit hesistant to outright blame the scope on that one.

The Ruger was a total loss, or so we thought. It actually was ok, and blew us all away to see the rifle work at all! Here's the story on that;

When we came back from the bush for our afternoon meal the hunter laid the rifle across the seat in back of the truck. It's an open pickup with a bench seat. During the Mid day meal one of the girls asked to use the truck to go fetch some additional food from the house about a mile away from the lodge. I said sure go ahead. Then when she came back about 20 minutes later she shyly poked her head into the door and in Afrikaans called me out. When I walked out the door she handed me the rifle and told me this story.

On her way back she noticed something odd sticking into the road and could not figure out what it was. It was not there when she left. As she got closer she realized it was a rifle harpooned barrel first right into the rocky sandy soil in the middle of the road. It was stuck into the road almost to the forestock. Upon examination I was unsure how we could clear the barrel of this super packed dirt, sand and clay like soil. The bigger problem I could see was that the 338 the hunter was using was one of the Abolt failures I had seen. His Abolt rilfe had all the bottom metal crack off and the rifle was unusable. It broke off under recoil as the gun slid back over the sheetmetal of the land cruisers hood. Oddly enough there was not a scratch on the hood? Toyota paint is clearly superior to Brownings pot metal castings.

So now this fella who is using his backup 30/06 rifle due to the catastrophic failure of the A bolt has just had it burried into the road barrel first. I very meekly called to him to have a chat outside. Fortunately this is one of the fellas I've hunted with that has simply the greatest sence of humor and was among the most entertaining people I've ever met.  His first words were "well this does not look good"...........I'll go get my cleaning rod. So we poked and cleaned that barrel the best we could and then took a test shot.


It was a freaking bullseye! Again another shot and another perfect bullseye, then another, and again perfect as well. How does an Abolt self destruct under it's own recoil and a Ruger get harpooned into the earth barrel first and not even lose zero? He went on to collect the reaming game with the 30/06 without further trouble or stress.
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Offline nasem

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2006, 04:23:14 PM »
If your only going to take plains game rifles and carry an extra as a back up, why wouldn't you carry two in the same cartridge? Then you could develope a load that works well in both and only have to take one type ammo. If one rifle fails, you already have the ammo for it, you don't have to change.

Thats a "smart" point, however, I don't ever own 2 different guns in the same caliber and I don't think I'll ever do that either.... and Now, I am trying to keep only 1 type of caliber of each.  Example, if I have a 30-06, I'll sell all of my other 30 calibers.... well... this is kind of a bad example, Cause I like my '06 alot for long hours of long range practice and I also can't part away from my tikka 300 win mag....ok fine there is an exception to this rule :)
But, I am trying to apply this rule to all my other calibers (I already sold my 300 RUM, and my Browning BAR 338 win mag, and just a few days back, I sold one of my 375 h&h winchester 70 classic stainless).

Offline Graybeard

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2006, 06:43:06 PM »
Quote
The one I'll be using for all PG will be the 338 zeroed at 300 yards shooting..... 225 gr swif-a-fram or 225 TSX

I'd be willing to lay you odds that if you tell your PH that you're going to sight in for 300 yards you'll get a lesson in reality.


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Offline Don Fischer

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2006, 04:41:54 AM »
nasem I believe American's in general are more gun nut's than hunter's. That may explain why we feel the need to shoot our game in the next county with the latest and greatest cartridge and rifle.
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline JJHACK

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2006, 06:13:17 AM »
Don, that's a very good observation or point you make.

I've worked with hunters from around the world while a guide in Alaska and many more foreign hunters now as a PH in Africa. There are some very clear differences, which although not 100% for every American, fits the majority of them perfectly.

The first is the need to have every cartridge they load to the functional limit of the rifles structural integrity. Americans are all about velocity.

Next is the need to buy and build their rifles for the absolute longest range they could possibly have a chance at. There is almost a boastful nature about how far they can hit with the rifle they bring, and of course how much down range power it still has. Of course this really screws up the 100 yard shots they never practice for. Further when you build a long range rifle with a high power large adjustable objective scope, and the rifle has a huge powder capacity to drive a bullet very fast to 700 yards.  It's not at all comfortable to carry, nearly impossible to shoot freehand , and the recoil limits functional practice sessions. There is also this desire to shoot tiny groups from the bench to amuse themselves with the amazing accuracy they can achieve at silly long distance. This style rifle lends itself to this kind of shooting which is why all the shooting is practiced this way.

However when they have that 150 yard shot off of an improvised rest like a branch, or limb, fence post, rock, etc. They have a zero point of 300 or more yards this creates a typical 3" high 100 yards POI and a 4.5" 200 yard POI. With the recoil shyness the rifle has caused, the weight of packing that huge long range beast with a 50mm bell on the scope, the shakey arms cause a wobble, the  pre shot nerves contribute some shake, and the hunter forgets about that 4.5" trajectory at the instant of the shot, and he shoots over the back or way to high with a wounding hit on this animal with what should be a given at a simple 150 yard range.

I'm always stunned at the folks who come planning for the absolute distant unreasonable ranges, yet cannot point and shoot freehand accurately in a couple seconds at close range. I find that the defining difference between a real hunter, and just a good shooter. After all......... people always talk about going to "hunt" in Africa, I don't hear them say they are going "shooting" in Africa. If you want to come hunting, then we need to have a tool that "hunts" one that can be packed all day, has comfortable recoil, and just enough scope to get the job done. One that you can shoot so much before you come over it's like an extension of your arms. When you toss the rifle up to allign the sights and squeeze off the shot. Those big scopes have no place on a hunting rifle, The tall rings requre a custom stock and fitted cheekpiece. Try this, close your eyes tight, holding your unloaded gun toss it to the shoulder and allign your cheek and hold on for the shot. Then open you eyes. If your not looking through the scope perfectly with only very minor adjutment of the face to the stock for a clear picture...........you have some work to get that gun to fit you properly. Something is wrong with that set-up. If your way off but the gun still shoots outstanding once you settle in, that's a bench gun or target rifle!

Golfers syndrome I coined this phrase about 10 years ago now. It's the American desire to click off the shot and then admire the results by watching what's happening. Europeans never take the eye away from the scope, or finger off the trigger after the first shot. If I were to even slightly say shoot again that gun fires another bullet right into the game. Americans in that situation are trying to find eye allignment and settle in and ...... the game is gone. This is so common with my hunters it's almost a guarantee it will happen on every trip with different cultures of people. It's so bad with the spaniards in fact I have to yell to them stop shooting! I've threatened to take away the bullets as they shoot everything many times over.

Finally the gun finish. This has taken a turn for the positive in the last ten years. However there was a time, and still somewhat frequently I get hunters with the most shiny blue metal and high gloss stocks that they act like an emergency a signal mirror! These are works of Art that should never leave the gun vault!

The most successful hunters I've had don't usually have sub MOA skills or equipment, but they can throw the gun to the shoulder and click off a shot with an improvised rest very smoothly and confidently. The gusn they have a boring by most standards too. They shoot simple basic 30/06, 308, 8mm mauser, 338/06, 35 whelen, etc. some do quite well with the 300 mags, and the 338 as well. They usually have an old beat up actually pathetic looking stock, and a simple scope someplace from 2 power on the low end to ten power on the high end. Never an AO, and always the lowest rings and bases they can find to connect the two. Almost all will have a zero point based on a midrange trajectory of no greater then 3" . This usually relates to a 200 or 250 yard zero.

When I get a hunter that shoots quickly with minimal effort to get the shot off but he can only manage a 2-3" group at best he will kill a whole lot of game with me compared to the fella that needs a solid rest but shoots one bug hole group at 200 yards.
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Offline GEMSBUCK

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2006, 07:06:48 AM »
Yes these threads usually go bad PDQ. But it's a boring day at the office so what the heck...
 For the life of me I can't see how anyone can state that a 400gr/ .458 quality bullet @ 2000fps isn't capable of killing a cape buffalo be it shot from a 45-70 or a 458WM. I see no difference in the same bullet traveling at the same speed in performance.
 Can the 45-70 launch a 400gr bullet at 2000 fps? Yes it can Can the 458WM launch the same at 2000 fps? Yes it can. The question should be are you willing to keep your 45-70 shots under 75 yds? Most buffalo are killed at that range or less. But many are killed at 100yds + and that is where the 458WM shines. IMHO if you can get 100 yds, you should be able to get within 75 yds too...but you must be willing to pass the shot with your 45-70 if you just can't.
 As for a 2 gun trip to Africa to hunt both PG and DG a 30-06 will be all that is needed for any of the PG includuding eland with good bullets in 180 gr and proper shot placement. The 375 H&H is enough gun for even elephant and not too much for any PG.
 My personal 2 guncase is loaded with a 338WM and a 458WM. My wife's is either a 7mm08 or a 270 and a 375H&H.

Now I have a question. If you can launch a 400gr bullet at 2000fps from a 45-70 and a 458 win mag, why is it that the 45-70 is only good to 75yds but the 458 is good 100yds+???????

JJ,

Your good posts are getting boring, they come to often! ;D ;D

 Don: Now that I go back and reread what you quoted I, myself wonder what the heck I was thinking at the time I typed that...too much egg nog I assume. I'll stand pat on my 400gr .458 bullet @2000fps is the same from a 45-70 or a 458WM in performance but the rest of that quote makes no more sense to me today then it did you....must be time for some more egg nog ;)
 My intent as you  must imagine is to prove that either caliber with that load "IF" the 45-70 was legal will kill any cape buffalo or lion that ever walked

Offline nasem

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2006, 07:19:00 AM »
I really don't see zeroing your gun at the 300 yard range being that much of an issue.  As I have said before, I do 100 times more shooting than I do hunting and yes, I am a "group" freak, but there is nothing wrong with this.  I enjoy having and watching my bench skills improve, it makes me learn my guns and how they react to different bullets and powder charges.

My first ever deer that I killed in 2005 was a 130-ish pound buck with a 30-06 that was zeroed at 300 yards (Yeh I know it was kind of silly to do that in michigan, most shots are within 100 yards or less).  That deer collapsed at the instant of the impact, stood up and wabled 10 yards to its death.  I coulda sworn that deer was not even 90 yards away from me....  Now I do agree that it was not practical for me to have the gun zeroed at 300 yards, I honestly didn't know about how thick michigan forests are.

taking down the zeroing of my scopes from 300 back down to 200 is only a few clicks away AS LONG AS I USE THE AMMO I RELOAD.  I am very comfortable doing that, and from what I underestand, for every guided hunting trip you go on, you always do a few practice rounds to see if your gun is still holding its zero, if my guide tells me that I am zeroed too far and I need to bring it down to 200 or even 100, no problem, i'll start clicking, and then I'll take a few more test shots.

Offline GEMSBUCK

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2006, 11:08:04 AM »
Killing your first deer in 2005 and giving advice on laying the smack down to a cape buffalo in 2006. WOW! you must have spent lots of time surfing the net to get those credentials!! ::)

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2006, 11:10:09 AM »
Well JJ, I'm pumped now. My two favorite hunting rifles:

Win Mod 70   6.5x55 w/ 1-4 Redfield    New last year




Springfield 03 in 30-06 w/2 3/4 Redfield     Built in 1945 and soon to be a 338-06



Most people think I'm under prepared but these two rifles really really handle and both shoot better than I.
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Graybeard

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2006, 12:46:17 PM »
Killing your first deer in 2005 and giving advice on laying the smack down to a cape buffalo in 2006. WOW! you must have spent lots of time surfing the net to get those credentials!! ::)

Quite common on the internet these days really.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline nasem

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2006, 12:51:06 PM »
Killing your first deer in 2005 and giving advice on laying the smack down to a cape buffalo in 2006. WOW! you must have spent lots of time surfing the net to get those credentials!! ::)

I gave advice on killing cape buffalo ??? really ? when Did I do that may I ask ???,....
If you read my 3rd responce to this thread, I specifically said "I speak only from my own knowledge of paper reading and ballistic examinations"   I think I made it VERY clear that I am no DG hunter whatsoever, so where are you getting this BS about me giving advice on Cape Buff hunting ?!?!?!?!  Unless of course, your refering to my 2nd self, my schizophrenic side of the world, where I am actually a very sucessful DG hunter, a man (me) who hunts over 100 cape buffalos every month (In my dreams)

Offline Rev Buck

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2006, 03:48:35 PM »
Back to the question of a two gun battery for plains game.  It makes no sense to me to have two different rifles in the same caliber.  I would rather have two of the same rifle in different calibers.  For example, I have a T3 Hunter in .30-06 that works well for me and has proven itself in the field.  It handles well for me and I am confident with it in hunting situations.  If I get ready for a back up rifle for a plains game hunt I will get another T3 in .338 Federal and set it up with the same scope, same rings, same eye relief, same sling, etc. as the .30-06.  This way when I pick up the second riifle it will have the same "feel" as the first one.  Just my 2 cents.  Rev     

Offline cetme

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Re: two gun battery for africa
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2006, 10:20:36 PM »
O.K. no more pie in the sky gimmick guns When I have the money to go to africa I'll also have enough for a 375 ruger alaskan model and use the scout rifle I already have. 165 308's and 270 375's should cover it all and if I get crazy I could get a 416 rigby #1.

 I guess If I'm spending 20 grand on a trip I can only make once or twice on the outside I should look at it as insurance to by an african game rifle.