300 XTP 44 magnum for bears...seating depth?

[rimfire]

Dumb question...am trying 300 grain XTPs in my 44 for a bear hunt I am taking next year.  The bullet has two cannelures.  If I seat it long I understand it will lower pressures with identical loads.  Does that mean that XX grains of powder YY will drive the bullet slower when it is seated long than when seated shorter with the same powder load?  I was tempted to seat longer so it was easy to see which of my loads witre the 300 grainer versus the 240 grain XTP, but if I have to add more powder to reach the same velocity with a bullet seated longer then I will seat it shorter and mark the shells another way to keep track.  I am not sure why else I would want to seat longer as I don't really need any more powder than I can load seated short...and it kicks enough already!!

I am hoping to get around 1300 fps from this bullet for bears.  I may try a Beartooth wfngc also, but this is where I started.  I cannot find any data on loading this bullet seated out to the bottom cannelure in any reloading manual [I have lots!].  All reference data is based on the shorter OAL of loaded round.

Thanks.

[southern utah]

rimfire, I had the same question when I used some. What I found was there was a difference in firearms used. If I was loading for S&W and Ruger I used the longer loading. If I was loading for a Colt I used the second deeper seating. The manual show the S&W and Ruger loadings with more powder while the Colt less. The longer loaded ammo was to long for the Colt cylinder.

[handirifle]

As long as you're within safe pressures, or under max loads, the longer seated bullet, allows for more powder to achieve the same pressures.  That is true, but if burn rates and barrel lengths allow, you can also achieve higher velocities due to the longer pressure curve, ie, more powder burns longer.

The important thing is to make sure pressures stay within safe limits, always!

[nomosendero]

I had understood that the second groove was for the long cyl. of thr Redhawk to allow for hotter loads. Which S&W cyl. can utilize the lo0nger seating? I don't think my 629 can.

[rimfire]

Just for clarification...to be more specific...if I loaded 19grains of H110 under a 300 gr XTP and seated it short and chronoed and then long and chronoed would the short load chrono faster?

Both lengths fit my gun and I want to know if I use a powder chartge that would fit both would it make more sense to seat in shorter.  In other words, would I only seat it longer if I needed more room for powder?

The shorter faster eseems to make sense for the same reason that a certain charge in a 38 special would make a 158 grain bullet go faster than that same charge in a 357 magnum.  Same powder, primer and amount but smaller case increases pressure and velocity.  Of course, with the 357 you have more room and can add more powder and beat the velocity of the 38, but the 38 is more efficient with an equival4ent powder charge.

Is the shorter 44 more efficient for the same reason?  Makes sense...but I am an engineer and I think too much!!!

[Dusty Miller]

Its all academic.  Truth of the matter is you can seat it short at moderat velocities and get the job done.  Shot placement is a lot more important than which cannalure you use. 

[palgeno]

Determine if your cylinder will take the longer OAL of the cartridge when the bullet is seated into the second crimp groove. If not, don't seat the bullet there. If your cylinder will take the longer OAL then you have a choice. All else being equal, more powder is needed for the same pressure as the shorter length seating. More may give more velocity, but that is not the salient point. You could use a longer bullet and increase bullet weight ----very useful when using very heavy cast bullets----and still have enough case volume to get reasonable velocity. If you have a long cylinder, a longer cartridge OAL might result in better accuracy from your particular firearm.   Gene

[handirifle]

Just for clarification...to be more specific...if I loaded 19grains of H110 under a 300 gr XTP and seated it short and chronoed and then long and chronoed would the short load chrono faster?

Both lengths fit my gun and I want to know if I use a powder chartge that would fit both would it make more sense to seat in shorter.  In other words, would I only seat it longer if I needed more room for powder?

The shorter faster eseems to make sense for the same reason that a certain charge in a 38 special would make a 158 grain bullet go faster than that same charge in a 357 magnum.  Same powder, primer and amount but smaller case increases pressure and velocity.  Of course, with the 357 you have more room and can add more powder and beat the velocity of the 38, but the 38 is more efficient with an equival4ent powder charge.

Is the shorter 44 more efficient for the same reason?  Makes sense...but I am an engineer and I think too much!!!

Rimfire,
Based on my personal experience of reloading, the answer would be yes.  That said, the two different load lengths also change the properties of the entire load and may or may not be desirable.  It would ALMOST ALWAYS be safer to take a load designed for the shorter OAL and use it in the longer OAL, but NEVER do the reverse, unless it is below the max listed loads for THAT OAL and you have tested it in your gun by working up to it.  Even a begenning load may be listed differently so be very cautious.

[Mikey]

I would load to the longest depth your cylinders will allow and adjust your powder charge accordingly.  That being said I find it interesting that the longer length fits some revolvers but not others while the shorter length fits all revolvers - and lever actions.  Lever actions simply will not cycle a round with the bullet loaded out.

I load 295300 gn swcs and jacketed to different lengths for my S&W and my 444s.  I crimp behind the front band on the cast for the S&W but on the leading edge of the front band for my lever actions.  When I used jacketed, the S&W gets the ones seated to the low cannelure but the levers gets get them seated to the front cannelure or they won't exit the mag tube.  Mikey.

[sawfish]

In my Super Redhawk, the accuracy is considerably better when the 300-XTP bullets are loaded to maximum length (lower cannelure).  That being said, IMHO, this bullet is pretty tough, and has not provided reliable expansion at .44 Magnum velocities.  You would be probably be just as well off with a hard cast SWC in the same weight.

[Racer X]

I am hoping to get around 1300 fps from this bullet for bears.  I may try a Beartooth wfngc also, but this is where I started.  I cannot find any data on loading this bullet seated out to the bottom cannelure in any reloading manual [I have lots!].  All reference data is based on the shorter OAL of loaded round.

Thanks.

Based on the loading data published by Hornady and the powder companies, you are going to have a tough time safely pushing a 300 grain jacketed bullet more than 1200 FPS. That is as high as their velocity goes (Hornady and Speer).

You did not say what kind of bear you were going to hunt. Although I have never hunted bear (we have black bears here but it's not legal to hunt them), if I did, I would use a 250 - 300 grain cast WFN bullet loaded to about 1200 FPS.

[sawfish]

In the March, 1992 issue of Shooting Times there was an article by Layne Simpson dealing with heavyweight bullet loads in the .44 Magnum.  There was a side bar in the article called "The Ruger 10.9 mm Magnum", which specifically dealt with loads for Ruger revolvers using the Hornady 300 gr JHP (now "XTP") seated out to the bottom cannelure.  I have used one of those loads for many years in my 9.5" SRH, which chronographs 1,297 fps.  The 300-XTP will still not expand at that velocity, but it is deadly accurate.  I tested the load when I initially began shooting it in 1996 and it produced an honest 1" 4 shot group at 100 yds.  I tested the same load this year (10 years later), and it produced a 4 shot 1.25" load at 100 yds.  I attribute the increase in size to old age.  Loads were from a rest with scope.

[rimfire]

First...sorry...should have mentioned this was for black bears.

Second...I have heard of that 10.9 mag load write-up by Layne Simpson for several years and have been trying to find a copy of that article for all of that time.  I have had zero luck.  I have been told that a friend of a friend might have a copy many times...but no one has come through.  Layne even mentions it in several of his books, but does not list the loads for liability reasons most likely.  Tried multiple google searches with every combination of search terms I can think of...NO LUCK.

If anyone has a copy of that article they could scan I would really really appreciate it.  I can give you another e-mail address to send to or whatever as I know postinbg these sort of loads is frowned upon.

Thanks.

[handirifle]

I was looking at Midwayusa and their description for that bullet says the top canelure is for 44 special and the bottom one for the 44 mag. FWIW

[Don_K]

In my " Load Book" Hornady lists the OAL for 300g XTP 44mag at 1.60. Hodgdon also lists 1.60 in their data. This puts the bullet in the top cannalure. If I use the bottom cannalure, the bullet is awfully close to the end of the cylinder. Any bullet pull from recoil could tie up the gun. Not good if the bear is wounded and after you! ( I believe the Redhawk cylinder is a little longer, so loading long may work in that gun.) I use this bullet with 18.5g of H110 in a 7 1/2" Super Blackhawk and velocity 10ft from the muzzle is around 1130. It is very accurate in my gun.   Hope this helps.  - Don