bullet recommendation?

[NimrodRx]

I know this doesn't directly apply to Africa, but I've always been impressed with the knowledge of JJ and others on this particular forum.  Seems to be a lot of experience here with med. to large bores.

I am new to loading the .338 win mag and am trying to select a bullet for a 2007 British Columbia elk hunt.  The .30-06 was going to get the nod, until I started adding up the cost I'm going to have into this hunt.  Figured the .338 would provide a little extra "insurance."

Anyway, I see where I can get the 230 gr Fail Safes on clearance for 50% off.  From the data I have looked at, I should be able to drive that bullet at 2850-2900 fps at the muzzle.  Is this sufficient enough to guarantee good expansion at 300 + yrds? 

I love a good deal, but it isn't worth compromising performance.  Is the fail safe a good bet at this speed and diameter, or should I be looking at a bonded bullet?

Thanks!

[JJHACK]

Failsafe bullets are among the worst performing bullets I've ever had the displeasure to see used. I think they are on clearance becuse they are not made anymore............and for good reason!

Ive seen plenty of game shot with these countless times and not react or go down. One fella shot a Gemsbok as I recall now 7 times into the chest and all the exits looked the same as the entry holes. A few we have recovered have had copper stiped down the sides from the rifling in the barrel but other then that they could have been used again. They absolutley did not open one bit.

Buy yourself some Hornady interbonds, or Swift bonded bullets and don't worry about the bullets any more. If your lucky enough to have a barrel that will shoot the TSX that's a great bet as well. Just shoot lighter then normal wights with the tsx to keep the velocity up near 3000fps. They should really do the trick for you.

The best advice I can give you it to run from those discount failsafes as fast as you can!

[Rev Buck]

ditto on the failsafes.  I'm not an elk hunter but I did shoot a good sized black bear with one and there was a pencil sized entry hole and a pencil sized exit hole resulting in a long and difficult blood trail.  No more failsafes for me!  Rev

[NimrodRx]

Yikes 

I was concerned about expansion, but I didn't realize fail safes had that bad of a rap...

The interbond is probably the way to go.  Just for fun though, I think I will give the TSX a try.  My .30-06 loves the 168gr TSX.  Maybe I'll get lucky with the .338 too.  That was going to be my load/rifle until I shot the .338.  I don't know if it was the limbsaver pad or the "heavy" rifle (Sako Finnbear), but 250 gr CoreLokts were a pleasure to shoot.  Less recoil than my slug gun. 

I will let you know which load the rifle likes.

[nasem]

After talking to my friend's dad, who by the way does alot of "penetration + expansion" tests on wet news papers, nothing performs better than those Barnes TSX, and thier closest competition is the swift-a-fram.  His favorit is the swif-a-fram because of better accuracy and a bit deeper penetration.  He also likes:
the hornady interbonds,
nosler partitions (but they lose over 30% of thier original weight),
nosler accubonds (retain average of 80% of thier original weight),
speer trophy bonded bear claws,
and the best penetration (but keep in mind, this bullet does not expand at all) is the tungs sudghammer speer.

Get some 225 grain, either Nosler Accubonds (boat tail with 0.550+ BC), drive that baby at over 2800-2900 fps and you have one heck of a flat bullet......

[JJHACK]

You might want to chat with him a bit about that penetration comment regarding the TSX and the Aframe.

I simply don't see it possible that the Aframe will out penetrate the TSX in any media. Not living tissue, newsprint, not anything. Maybe that was a typo? or some misunderstanding in the conversation?

The TSX bullets exit almost every time from any angle on any game. On the other hand the Swift Aframes are among the least likely to exit bullets I've ever seen used. They are as completly opposite as is possible where exits are concerned. The Aframe will easily double it's diameter in game and very frequenlty be found under the skin on the exit side. You will see the trauma where the skin has pulled away a great distance from the muscle tissue and snapped back. Those huge round soft edged mushrooms are extremely difficult to push through the elastic hide.

The TSX with its far smaller mushroom will usually penetrate that skin and depart with the much smaller diameter and somewhat sharper or maybe I should say less blunt front end.

I've made a career of recovering bullets in game and will say that this comment about the Aframe out penetating the TSX is the first time I've ever head that from anyone. Everyone I have ever heard speak of the TSX when compared to Bonded technology has mirrored my experience that nothing short of a solid will out penetrate the TSX bullets. By the same token everyone using the Aframe suggests that the exits with that bullet are greatly reduced due to the diameter and soft edge construction.

If this is truely his finding I would like to hear more about his experiment

[NimrodRx]

I too am interested.  Of course, I'm sure I couldn't go wrong with either.  Then again, my .30-06 with a 168 TSX at 2850 fps would have been a fine choice too...  But then, I wouldn't have had an excuse to fuss with a different cartridge.  Even so, I still believe that the .338 offers a little insurance for that "hunt of a lifetime -" even on elk sized game.

Naturally, I want to balance penetration and expansion.  Maybe this is where the Interbond shines in the .338 on elk sized game.  At 300 yrds or less this thing has got to hit like the hammer of Thor.  Certainly can't beat the price.  If I were hunting DG, maybe I'd wan the AFrame or TSX... 

The 210gr Partition is also a legitimate consideration.  I should be able to get that up to 3000fps with "modest" recoil.  Hmmm, decisions, decisions......  Is it Sept. 8, 2007 yet? 

[GrassLakeRon]

JJ would you say is the best for large brown bear?  The fail safes are as good as Full Metal Jacketed bullets in my experience.  I hit a medium sized dear at 90 yards with a 180 grain "black talon" (Fail safe).  30 cal hole going in, same going out.  I hit the bottom of the heart so it went down.

Ron

[nasem]

you know what, I might have misunderestood him, I think Eric's dad meant the A-frams EXPANDED more than the TSX.... I'd have to speak to him to make sure of this.

His favorit is, im 100% sure of this, the swif-a-fram, I guess he loves the doubling-in-size bullets

JJ, I was reading an article in DG hunting, the hunter said he usually suffes his rifles with 3 bullets, 1 in the chamber (usually a softie), and the next 2 are FMJ or pure solids.....  Is this the typical way of hunting, say, an elephant?

How effective is having swif-a-fram vs TSX, which one would you prefer on say a 375 or even a 416 going after elephant or a huge 8000 lbs rhino...

[JJHACK]

There is a very limited use for solids in sport hunting. In my opinion they are needed for a few specific animals under specific conditions.

Solids should be used on thick skinned game like Rhino, Hippo, Elephant Etc. They are not needed today for Buffalo. Years ago when bullets broke up upon impact most competant PH's suggested Solids as they were more dependable and did not break up. Today Aframes, TBBS TSX, etc don't break up and can be used on buffalo without any problem.

I don't believe in mixing bullets in the magazine and chamber. There may be some wierd ceicumstance that might justify it but on average for day in day out hunting that's not a good choice. You will be setting yourself up for a problem. You know that fist shot will require a soild when you have a soft and the second will require a soft to prevent shoot through on other animals when you have the solid. It's just not a good plan to do this anylonger.

With Rhino, elephant and Hippo you don't have the worry of shoot though as frequently and you really need penetration on these huge beasts

[NimrodRx]

Well, a box of the 225gr TSX are on their way to my porch.  It was a tough call between these and the A Frames.  In the end it was my familiarity with the TSX that pushed me toward them.  I load the 168gr TSX in my .30-06.  Accuracy is stellar.  My .338 is the same make and model rifle, maybe I'll get lucky.  If not, the A Frames will be the next one I try.

Is it September yet....

[nasem]

Well, a box of the 225gr TSX are on their way to my porch.  It was a tough call between these and the A Frames.  In the end it was my familiarity with the TSX that pushed me toward them.  I load the 168gr TSX in my .30-06.  Accuracy is stellar.  My .338 is the same make and model rifle, maybe I'll get lucky.  If not, the A Frames will be the next one I try.

Is it September yet....

I am not sure you said anything about reloading but If you are a reloader you will have no problems with the TSX.  Yes sometimes they are a bit picky with your gun and the powder you use, but I think you can ALWAYS find a reciepie that will work well with your barrel and the TSX

[NimrodRx]

Yes, I reload.  I'm going to start with H4350.  I wish Barnes would get their act together and publish some data for the TSX.  I will be using the X data and not exceeding their max velocity.  I'm sure I can get them to shoot.  If not, going to the AFrame isn't giving anything up.  win win!