more smoke from powder

[max pearce]

Thanks Bill, I was going to paste your message,glad you decided to respond. I guess the old saying where there is smoke there is fire, I asked for more smoke and did we ever get a fire, my questons have well been answered, now I can wait for more education classes , what a deal keep the info coming.  Thanks MAX

[moose53]

I can see where there is a lot of room for experimenting .If I control the making  of the charcoal better then the powder is more consistent.I was probably over cooking the wood(no thermometer),did not remove the bark ,and some of it was rotten.My wood container worked well though( heavy pipe with bolt on lid with bolt for vent stopper,about same size as popcorn tin).The powder burned well enough but it was hard to get any real consistency out of my cannon,you may just have solved my problem. Thanks

[jeeper1]

Would pictures of the cooker/sheet metal and etc. be possible?

[Will Bison]

Howdy Gang;

Thanks Max, I thought I could simplify the text a bit.

I'll continue with my process with the blessings of Staff.

Once I got the charcoal down to a science, I started making it in large volume and store it in plastic trash cans. It took quite a few burns to get the process down pat. The bad batches, well it's Bar-b-Que time.

After the charcoal is cooked, it still looks like the wood it was made from. What the heck do I do with this stuff?? Ah Ha, the popcorn cans. Put the stuff in the can, seal the lid with duct tape and let 'er turn with some large lead balls. ( Did someone say ball mill)

All of my materials are stored in bulk, in other words I don't just make up a batch of powder, rather I have the processed materials on hand in bulk form. I have a reasonable schedule of shooting events so I only make as much powder as I need.

Milling; I use the 75-15-10 or 80-20 mix. This goes in my ball mill for six hours (your milage may vary). I use ABS pipe and lead balls for the mill. No sparks and minimal static charge. Again, don't mill one charge for five hours and the next for seven. Like conditions produce like results.

Pressing; I use the 12 ton hydraulic press on a four inch puck. This produces over 3,000 psi on the puck and gets the density to about 1.7 which is ideal.

Enough for tonight

Bill

[Will Bison]

Max, Moose, Jeeper and others;

You guys are pressing me to the wall on this subject, keep it coming, I love to talk about it.

For Jeeper;

How did I know you guys would want pics? Well I just did and no I ain't got none. I'm about 600 miles from home base right now, BUT I might be able to concoct a pic.

For Moose;

"If I control the making  of the charcoal better then the powder is more consistent."

You hit the nail on the head. The charcoal is the secret.

For Max;

I thought about what I sent in a PM and reposted the whole thing with less word count.

Bill

[moose53]

If you could  would a picture of your rolling mill be out of oder ? It sounds like you are using several good innovations.I think I like the popcorn tin idea, especially stacking several tins on the rolling mill at once.Thanks

[Will Bison]

Hi Moose;

No pics available at this time, I'm working in S CA, Winter is travel time for me. I will post some pics come Spring when I get home.

The material list:

Pillow Block Bearings -- I use 1/2 inch --- get a bunch
3/4 Horse motor
1/2 inch steel rods, round, three feet long, cut to your desired length
Pulleys for the reduction gearing
Belts
End keepers, so the shafts don't come out
Nuts, bolts etc

I like to turn this at about 30-40 RPM. The typical electric moter turns about 1,750 RPM so it must be reduced by pulley to achieve the proper RPM.

I'll post more later.

Bill

[moose53]

Do you use anything between the can and shafts to help drive and stabilize can position?Do you drive both shafts?How far apart did you place your shafts to accommodate the size spread you use?If you don't mind a few questions I won't need pictures. Thanks a lot

[Powder keg]

I'm surprised that this topic hasn't surfaced before? After all Black powder is a major ingredient in our hobby? I want to make my own BP every time I drop $13 a pound. Lets not mention the 130 mile drive (one way) to the nearest outlet.

I think my first question is, is it league? The FBI isn't going to come knocking are they?

The ball mill sounds fairly easy. Do you add water, or do you mill it dry?

[GGaskill]

...is it legal? The FBI isn't going to come knocking are they?

I don't think the FBI will get involved, maybe the ATF, and maybe your local Fire Marshall.  Don't advertise it widely.  In any event, do the processing in a structure you can afford to lose to fire and/or explosion.

[Cat Whisperer]

...
The ball mill sounds fairly easy. Do you add water, or do you mill it dry?

Some industrial processes use alcohol/water mix - evaporates faster when finished.

Take note that civil war powder plants covered sometimes 15 miles of area - GREAT distances between buildings for the obvious reasons.

[Will Bison]

This is what I expanded on for a ball mill/tumbler http://www.unitednuclear.com/ballmill.htm , no point in reinventing the wheel, just fix the flat tire.

Bill

[Will Bison]

Answers to questions;

Tim;

I dry mill, wet mill makes a big goooooey mess. Dry mix in a ball mill poses no particular danger. BP is a pretty benign substance so long as sparks/flame are not introduced. Consider that it is/was the filler in shells for two hundred years and is subject to the shock/"g" forces/temp of being fired. Yes, I use a small amount of isopropyl alcohol to speed drying. A small amout of ethyl alcohol don't hurt none either.

George;

I suppose that if one can buy and use Tannerite or KinePac or any of the other binary products, BP should not be a problem.

Moose;

Look at the site I just posted.


Bill

[moose53]

Very nice so simple yet well thought out. Very good starting point . Do you tilt yours when it so long or do you find it works ok at a much flater angle.

[Will Bison]

Moose;

Flat: It will drift to one end or the other. You can monkey around with the thing so it turns in the center but it's not worth the effort.

Bill

[Will Bison]

On my ball mill/tumbler, I drive all the shafts and spacing is dictated by the diameter of the object turned. I turn 4 inch ABS pipe, coffee cans, one gallon paint cans and the popcorn cans. I found that after using the mill for awhile, I wanted to respace the shafts. Depending on what else you want the thing to do, will dictate the shaft spacing. I also installed a mechanical timer switch so I can "Set it and forget it".

Bill

[Will Bison]

Here is a site with fish/turkey fryers just so you have some good pics. http://www.elitedeals.com/baclspchfico.html First of all the aluminium pots/strainers are not needed, set them aside.

Note the large, black steel ring at the top. Rivet the aluminium sheet to this ring from the ring up, so that it surrounds the popcorn can. It's that simple.

Bill

[Will Bison]

How to dry the powder: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0005854510706a&type=product&cmCat=Search_Results_NYR&returnPage=search-results2.jsp&Ne=2510&noImage=0&Ntt=smoker&Ntk=Products&QueryText=smoker&Ntx=mode+matchall&N=4808&trueNum=32

I needed a way to dry my powder and had planned on building a box with blower and heat element. I was looking around a local junk shop and found a smoker for ten bucks. I could only speculate that the smoker was only ten bucks due to a burned out element. I got it home and it worked. These things run at about 160⁰f, perfect.

It takes about two days to dry the powder. I test it on the postal scale. When it stops losing weight, it's done.

Bill

[Will Bison]

Pressing the cake:

As indicated I use the 12 ton press from Harbor Freight. At $110 bucks on sale, you can't buy the materials to build one.

Material list:

Four inch ABS pipe
Two three inch ABS caps
Sand
Fiber glass resin
Two pipe flanges

The two pipe caps are filled with sand/resin mix and the pipe flanges are then inserted in the ends of the caps. This forms the upper and lower pistons. The three inch caps just fit in four inch pipe.

I cover the pistons with Glad Wrap, on the powder side. This prevents sticking. The inside of the four inch ABS is given a thin coat of Pam, also to prevent sticking. Now I load 250 grams of wet mix (8% water/alcohol) and press it to the full capacity of the press.

Once the puck comes out it is still quite soft, put it in the dryer. In two days it will ring like a ceramic bell and weigh about 227 grams. During the pressing you will have a small amout of water run out of the die, that's normal.

Bill

[GGaskill]

The two pipe caps are filled with sand/resin mix and the pipe flanges are then inserted in the ends of the caps.

The caps are flat ended?  Do the flanges go with the threads out and available or stuck in the sand/epoxy?

[C. Jay]

Another good site with lots of black powder info is http://www.creagan.net/fireworks/ --read the charcoal and black powdre sections.

C. Jay

[Will Bison]

George;

The first set of pistons I made I put the sand/resin mix in and while still wet, put the pipe flanges, flat side toward the resin mix. BIG mess. The next set, I poured in the resin/sand and let them cure then used Gorrilla Glue to afix the flanges, still with the flat side toward the resin mix.

I suppose one could put the Boss down in the mix, the only purpose of the flange is to spread the pressure of the press over a larger surface area.

Bill

[GGaskill]

So you could make them from thick plate and forget the pipe caps, epoxy/sand, etc?

[Will Bison]

C Jay;

Good site, I had not seen it before. The charcoal production info is very good. I'll repeat myself, charcoal is everything. Ulrich Bretscher will also tell you that charcoal is the secret. Repeatability is important from batch to batch. I make very careful notes, watch the clock, watch the gas escape, watch the flame and the temperature.

Bill

[Will Bison]

George;

In short yes. The only requirement is that we have a cylinder with pistons on each end. I'm not a machinist or a very good mechanic so I have utilized "off the shelf components". I know with your talents a better product could be constructed.

Bill

[Will Bison]

To all:

Perhaps a recap of our discussion is in order.

We know the mixture, we know how to make charcoal (the most important part), we can construct a ball mill, we discussed pressing and screening. I break my "grain" in a large aluminum pot with a wood stick (baseball bat) and then tumble prior to screening.

Continue the questions.

Bill

[max pearce]

ON charcoal, how wood a cast iron pot, say 9"  x 10" tall work, cast would never burn out and  only drill the holes on top,would cut the sticks shorter and weight down to fit less total volume of container, in other words if a smaller container is used do you calculate the volume of the container and adjust the weight in wood to meet the same ratio as the pocorn can, or does it not work like that? I have alot of old castiron pots.  thanks max

[Will Bison]

Max;

The popcorn cans are 9X11 so it sounds like you are in the ballpark with a cast iron pot. Remember, the lid must form an airtight seal. If any oxygen gets in the pot, you wind up with ashes. Hey, go for it, this is all learning and experimentation. The weight of the charge is flexible so long as you get repeatable results. With your pot being a tad smaller, go with 8 pounds initial charge.

I have some control over the wood I use but it will not be the same as what you have available in your neck of the woods. I also live in the most arid State in the Nation so water content in my wood will be lower. I just cut my wood a few weeks ago, just before the cold weather set in, thus my wood has cured on the tree all Summer.

I also tried Pinion Pine and Juniper, both grow wild on my property. The Pinion was a miserable failure, the Juniper Hmmmmm, could work. Best luck has been with Willow.

Balsa is another great wood but at 7,000 feet in N Nevada, I don't think I'd have much luck growing Balsa.

Bill

[C. Jay]

Balsa scraps are available for resonable prices here.  http://www.specializedbalsa.com/balsa_scraps.php
I have heard that it makes fantastic BP also.

C. Jay

[Double D]

Take a trip to Northern California Eurteka are and look around for a truck load of Alder.