more smoke from powder

[max pearce]

Alittle new at this. I have made my own black powder, it works great but I do not get the large plume of smoke I see on all these photos. My cannon is 20 inches long with a 3/4 bore, brass. what can I add or do for more smoke.   thanks

[GGaskill]

Hard to say unless you give out your formula.

[Rickk]

Also, what color is the smoke that you actually are getting already?  White, Grey, Yellow, Black?

Smoke is the result of incomplete cobustion. Little or no smoke is, chemically speaking, a good thing. It is also not easy to get complete combustion with Black Powder.

Any idea what granulation size you have concocted? If the granulation is too small, you will get less smoke, higher pressures, more dangerous.

For what it's worth... 1F "Skirmish Powder" is pretty cheap stuff (maybe cheaper than the materials to make your own), more uniform than you can probably make at home, and would be about the right granulation for a .75 inch bore.

[Will Bison]

If you use the 75-15-10 mixture it should produce the same amount of smoke as commercial powder. BP will produce about 45% gas and 55% smoke. The smoke is potassium carbonate.

[Cat Whisperer]

Long tube says it.  Good combustion.

I compare my beer-can caliber mortar with a friend's.  Mine is 1/4" longer bore than the can is tall; his is about 24".  Mine smokes, his doesn't; mine is louder, his goes 'thunk'; mine has short range, his has long range.

I've known some folks that put flour in with the powder to create more smoke.  (Re-enactors).

[max pearce]

The smoke is white, the make up is .75% ,15%,10%, I never thought about flour for more smoke pretty cool idea I will try it any idea on what percent and where do you find skirmish powder never heard of it probably spelled it wrong thanks again.

[Cat Whisperer]

Max -
 WELCOME to the board.

Proportion?  I heard ....   (take this with a grain of salt, it's not "I use ..." )  up to 50/50.  Standard disclaimers apply.

(work up the load from a reduced load and watch pressure!)

As I remember, these were for BLANKS.  So, you're in uncharted territory.

[Will Bison]

Since you use the "standard" mixture your powder smokes as well as it should. I also use some flour as a source of additional smoke and for a bit more recoil when shooting blanks.

It occured to me that you may have been using the 80-20 mix, eliminating the sulphur, in which case it will produce less smoke, but that isn't the case.

If I may inquire, what is your cost per pound on the home made stuff, I figure about two bucks??

[Rickk]

you can get Skirmish Powder from www.powderinc.com .

you don't mix the flour with the BP, you add it on top.

Are you using a simple mixture with your BP, or is it wet-mixed, pressed, dried, broken up and screened?

[max pearce]

The powder is mixed by weight put in a rock tumbler from harbor freight with 1/2" lead balls then mixed over night. then corn starch cooked in the oven at 400 degrees until light brown stirring every 10 mtnutes is added about one table spoon or so per 150 grams of KNO3 , 30 of charcoal, 20 of sulfur. Mix well, then dampen the powder mix until dry doe like, alittle messy, then rub it through a a spagetti screen strainer let grainules dry and tou have lifting powder. instead of one table spoon it should be 20 grams. total cost is about 2.50 if you buy all the materials . thanks for your help again.

[GGaskill]

If you're mixing the corn starch into the powder, you need to add more KNO₃ for it to burn completely.  Mixed in, it is competing with the charcoal and sulfur for the oxygen in the KNO₃.  Added on top when loading, it is just some additional particles blown from the muzzle.

[max pearce]

The cooked corn starch acts like dextrin a glue that holds the grains together until they dry maybe I still need to add more KNO3 ?

[GGaskill]

I think so, since the starch is going to burn as much as the charcoal and sulfur, and without adequate oxygen, something is not going to burn completely.  I would add 1.86 times the weight of the starch in KNO₃.

[Cat Whisperer]

But - wasn't the original question one of increasing the amount of smoke?  Hence, doesn't balancing the chemical equation moving towards less smoke?

Beyond the topic of smoke, I think it's cool that you're making your own!  I haven't done that since high school - and it was poor quality since I didn't have a means of weighing it.

[GGaskill]

wasn't the original question one of increasing the amount of smoke?

True, but an absence of oxygen will effect the reaction of all fuel products.  It is time for an experiment.

[Will Bison]

Max;

One other thought I had is to compress the wet mix with a hydraulic press. I use a 12 ton press from Harbor Freight. I form a "grain" 4 inches in diameter and about one half inch thick. These pucks are then dried in a fish smoker at 160 f. The resulting density is right on target at 1.7 gm/cc. The powder you describe is a low density mix. Could it be that a higher density produces more smoke??

I built a bomb calorimeter to test my powder against commercial stuff and it's right in there with the Big Boys.

Beyond artillery I am an archaeologist and do quite a bit of amateur rocket work/pyrotechnic stuff. I dare say that I am one of very few people today that has seen a Congreve Rocket fly. The point being that I press load BP on a regular basis or at least used to.

Here may be a further test although not scientific: One pile of your powder next to a pile of GOEX. Ignite both and compare the cloud of smoke. Ignite them at the same instant and video tape the results. Obviously you will want to weigh out X number of grams of each. The pile of your powder will be larger than the pile of commercial stuff due to difference in density.

Bill

[moose53]

I corn my powder (mix with water and boil then dry on Cookie sheets at 120F).Material costs are about $0.80/pound,pound for pound it seems to have the same energy as commercial (same recoil ,boom ,and range) can't Tell much difference except that home made is easier to clean.What burn rate are you getting with your home made powder?My corned powder burns at 35-40 cm/sec compared to 1f cannon at 106 cm/sec and 3f rifle at 168 cm/sec.The powder tester is a 45in long wood 2x4 with a 1/2in x 1/2in slot the length of it ,fill slot with powder and time it with stop watch.Very interested in performance of milled powder

[max pearce]

I will try the burn rate and smoke comparisom test after the weather clears, and give results could be interesting. I am interested on the experiment mention on flour and additional KNO3 would like to hear resuts on the test . The more input and experiments is the way we all may learn something new to try. thanks again for all of Yall and your input.

[Rickk]

Hi again Max Pierce.

I did some price shopping for BP ingredients.

The best I can find would make it cost almost double that for materials, which is close to what "skirmish powder costs". (KNO# $4.76, Sulfur
$3.43, Charcoal $3.95, all plus shipping and hazard fees,  in quantities to make 5# BP... works out to over $4 a pound to make BP (not including shipping/hazard fees). Note that everywhere I looked limited quantities of KNO3 sales to some small maximum. In this particular case it was 5# per order. You could place multiple orders, but the hazardous shipping fee would add up quicky. One dealer limited it to 1# per year.

If I order BP already made, it is 25# per box, so the hazardous fee and shipping is much lower per pound.

I made BP when I was a kid, and it wasn't all that hard. I just turned the odometer over at 50 years old yesterday, so I guess I get to be a kid again if i wanna, but I am looking for an economical advantage to doing so.

Where are you shopping that you can make it for $2.50 a pound?

[max pearce]

I have found chemicals on pyro pages and on EBAY under toy rockets I have to shop around for the best special. I have tried ag sulrur and made my own charcoal from white pine or willow, I really cannot tell much diffence, since I only shoot blanks at the lake I would hate to sink a boat. I only want a bang and lots of smoke for show. You think about it 600 years ago folks did not have 99.9% chemicals and used crude methods, seemmed to work for them, the powder used in this topic was made from 99.9% chemicals. thanks MAX

[Will Bison]

Just a few other comments. I make my own Willow charcoal since it grows wild on my property. Takes about one pound of propane to render two pounds of charcoal. The KNO³ I get in 50# bags from my Ag supply company at about $1.30 a pound. It's marked at 99+ % pure and sulphur is also an Ag product. A rancher friend gave me 300# of sulphur. So if I count electricity, propane, gas and other odds and ends I think I,m in at less than two bucks a pound.

The charcoal is the key, bad charcoal makes bad powder. I spent the better part of one Summer just learning how to make good charcoal. I'll say that charcoal is 90% of the process, the rest is easy. The purity of the KNO³ and sulphur is of little value if the charcoal is bad.

I also wanted a good tumbler/ball mill so I had to build it. It is used to tumble brass, mix paint, mill powder and a host of other things. The tumbler will turn any canister from four inches to 18 inches in diameter and 18 inches in length. I can have up to seven stations turning at any given time. I also do some lapidary work so it works great for polishing rocks.

I constructed a screen box wiith variable screens, up to six sizes at a time. It sits on springs and utilzes an orbital sander as the source of vibration. It also serves to separate placer gold when I hit some good color. It screens the corned powder into various grades after the corn has been tumbled and polished.

The corning is accomplised after the pucks of powder are dry (about 227 grams each). I made some hardwood plates with a cross hatch pattern milled in. The plates and a puck are loaded into the hydraulic press and crushed. This ain't a scientific operation, it's all by feel. The pucks are inserted in a cloth bag and then between the plates, this is to contain the powder when the grain breaks. The crushed grain then goes into the tumbler for several hours and then goes in the screen box.

For artillery use (which is about 200 pounds a year in my case), I eliminate the sulphur and use the 80-20 mix. It's not quite as powerful but sooooo easy to make. When corned I make it just a bit larger than GOEX Cannon (screen size dictated). Works great. But it won't smoke quite as well and the ignition temp is about 150 degrees C higher than GOEX. For the smoke I add an equal weight of flour on top of the charge.

For normal rifle shooting I'll stick with good old GOEX. Making powder for the average rifle shooter is a wast of time. For artillery buffs, pyrotechnicians and rocket folks, it is a consideration.

[moose53]

Wow that is a lot of good information ,Thanks a lot.I too found that good willow charcoal makes good powder.Would like to know more about the advantages of 80/20 mix

[Will Bison]

WOW, this has turned into a good discussion. I never thought anyone would be interested.

Moose:

The 80-20 mix is just that simple, no sulphur. For "Cannon Fodder" it works great. It is a "Low-Slow explosive" and lends itself to the big bore guns, say about 1.5 inch and above. The sulphur makes a faster powder but the primary advantage is the reduction in ignition temp. That is to say that the inclusion of sulphur lowers the ignition temp by some 150 dgrees C, not important given the normal methods of igniting cannon. It would be of some concern with flint ignition in a rifle and would require a larger charge of powder. As a side bar note, I just shot in a competition with rifle using the 80-20 and came in third out of 28 shooters. This was with a flint fusil using GOEX 4f in the pan.

I am certain that most of you are familiar with the work done by Ulrich Bretscher www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/homemade_bp.html
While I disagree with some of his methods, he has certainly done a great deal of research.

I like the 80-20 mix as does Ulrich. Clean, simple and does what it's supposed to do, project a ball with reasonable pressure and burning speed. The elimination of sulphur also makes it less corrosive. I also used this 80-20 as a rocket fuel in my work with the Congreve Rockets some years ago (A&E on one of the channels??).

Other than what I have indicated I can't think of any other information except to reiterate the importance of charcoal.

Bill

PS:  I had to go back and modify the URL for Ulrich. Should work now.

[max pearce]

I have learned alot of great information out of all the  post, very nice. How are scme of the set ups made or used to make charcoal. I have been burning it abit in my pit then closing ate vents over night it does not completly tun to coal I have scrape off the core of wood with a rasp. thanks max

[Will Bison]

Max;

To keep others in the loop, I sent you a PM regarding charcoal. Rather long response so I thought we'd take it off the main board.

Bill

[Double D]

Bill,

You can't do that, we are all sitting here waiting for  your post!!!  Post it to the board!!!!

[Cat Whisperer]

Max;
To keep others in the loop, I sent you a PM regarding charcoal. Rather long response so I thought we'd take it off the main board.
Bill

Bill - This has been an extremely valuable discussion; by all means publish with this the secrets of making 'good' charcoal!

[Will Bison]

DD, CW;

I have treaded lightly with this subject, not wanting to overstep the bounds of the forum. "Only through experimentation do we learn the true course of History" A quote from a Midshipman at the USNA, Annapolis, MD. And I must add he was a student of mine when I was Guest Speaker from the Air Force. (Not bad duty for an Air Force guy)

I'll let Max cut and paste my response, if you don't mind Max. I know my response to you is stored someplace, I just can't find it.

The charcoal is the essence of BP as Ulrich describes much better than I can. It is more than just Carbon, it is a state of Carbon with Hydrogen present and some Oxygen. The charcoal also contains other trace elements that lead to proper combustion.

We all learn from each other.

Bill

[Cat Whisperer]

...
I have treaded lightly with this subject, not wanting to overstep the bounds of the forum.
...
Bill

Bill - you tread too lightly, but thanks for your consideration/respect.  We're enjoying your lessons!  Keep 'em coming!

[Will Bison]

OK; let's talk charcoal.

Material list:

Turkey fryer, Walmart-- I talked to the Dept manager, down to $25 bucks
Thin aluminium sheet metal---Home Depot or Lowes
Pop rivets
Popcorn cans - Office Depot at Christmas About 2 or 3 bucks to get rid of them- 9 inches diameter, 11 inches tall
Bar-b-Que thermometers- Home Depot- They need to register to around 400⁰C
    I use a six inch probe, a one inch probe and a magnetic wood stove chimney thermometer

MODIFY the fryer. This is a wonderful heat source. The aluminium sheet is riveted around the outer ring of the fryer to form a chimney around the popcorn can. It directs the heat up the sides of the can. Properly done, a space of about one inch around the can will be present.

MODIFY the lid of the can. Four holes in the lid are required, two for the temp probes and two vents. The trick is to allow gas, smoke and water vapor to escape and yet exclude oxygen from the can. The six inch probe goes in the center of the lid...... The one inch probe can go a bit off center. The vents can go someplace on the lid, not critical. There are two vents, one large, one small, with drop in stoppers. As the burn begins, expect lots of smoke and gas to come out. At about 300⁰f the gas can be ignited. This stops the horrible smell and smoke and allows a visible picture of the amount of gas remaining in the burn.

A BIT OF HISTORY Some 30 odd years ago, my Mother did a lot of charcoal art. She was not satisfied with commercial charcoal drawing sticks and asked if I might be able to produce a better product. So I was now faced with a challenge I couldn't refuse. Uncharted territory to say the least.

THE BURN The can is loaded with ten pounds of wood, not 9.9 or 10.3, but ten pounds. During the 20 minute burn, eight pounds must come out the vents. The temp is held at 300-350⁰C. As the vent flame subsides, I block the larger vent. Watch the flame and temp. Don't over-cook.

THE WOOD I use salix, the Arroyo Willow known as Salix lasiolepis . It is abundant in the W US. I cut the dead branches on the tree. These are seasoned but not rotted and about two inches in diameter. I cut the wood to about six inches length and split the larger ones. All the wood is debarked.

ONCE COOKED Do not open the can, no oxygen. Let it cool.

The product should tip the scales at about two pounds. It should be a nice dark chocolate brown.

OK, bring on the questions.

Bill