Author Topic: Think it is time for a change. (Read 1607 times)

Bullseye · « **on:** December 29, 2006, 12:25:19 PM »

Deer season is over here. Looking back, between me and my wifes Encores I have cleaned muzzleloaders every weekend for the past couple of months between practicing and hunting. Now I am not lazy and do not mind cleaning them, but getting home at 9:00 Sunday night and then needing to clean a gun or two before getting some sleep before work Monday morning gets to be a pain in the butt.

Was out looking at the Savage smokeless muzzleloaders today. I really do not see much not to like about them. I have talked to 5 or 6 folks that have them and they all seem happy and report good accuracy. And I must admit, not needing to worry about cleaning the thing right away is a big plus.

Biggest drawback I see is making sure that you always have loads measured out and ready since a scale is required.

I will keep looking and give it some more thought, but I can see my Encore 209x50 being replaced in the next couple of months. I will keep my wifes since she really likes the Encore, but one to clean right away is much better than two.

simonkenton · « **Reply #1 on:** December 29, 2006, 02:54:33 PM »

Get the Savage. Same reason I got one, little or no cleaning.
The safety locks the bolt shut, so it cannot open when snagged on brush. No crud can get into the action. No blowback. Accurate.
I have a $50 balance beam scale that works great. You can use the Lee dippers, especially if you use AA5744 powder. Guys are getting 2 inch groups with the Lee dippers.
A few weeks ago I killed a buck at 7:30 am. I spent 3 hours gutting, dragging the deer from the woods, skinning, quartering, putting equipment away. I was tired when I finished.
I still haven't cleaned the rifle. I will probably clean it next year.
I bought the cheapo Savage. With 43 grains of N110, the 250 XTP and Winchester primers I got 1 1/2 inch groups on the first day.
Don't forget, you have to let that barrel cool for fifteen minutes between shots. Only thing about the Savage I don't like.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #2 on:** December 29, 2006, 02:57:45 PM »

Check your game laws, some states do not allow smokeless powder. I have seen a lean to more states making smokeless illegal. It is a new law in Delaware as of last year that no smokeless powder is allowed in a muzzleloader.

Also, I can clean my Encore in about 10 minutes, I don't see any real advantage in the Savage. But different strokes for different folks. I just can't see giving up the best M/L out there. It is like going from a Lincoln Navigator to a Ford Explorer.

But seriously, how does your encore shoot?

slave · « **Reply #3 on:** December 30, 2006, 12:48:37 AM »

Why is 15 a min cooling period required?

I do not own one nor have I done any research. Is that published by Savage for saftey reasons or is it a form of loading procedure to improve groups?

rks1949 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 30, 2006, 02:42:52 AM »

If you get the barrel hot,the sabots will fail,causing accuracy problems. That was one of my pet peeves,with the Savage. It sure eats up range time.

simonkenton · « **Reply #5 on:** December 30, 2006, 05:54:25 AM »

"It is like going from a Lincoln Navigator to a Ford Explorer. Grin But seriously, how does your encore shoot?"

It is like going from a Lincoln to a Ferrari is what you meant.

The fifteen minute wait is mandatory at the range in 70 degree weather, as was stated, the sabots will get too hot, groups will go to hell. Now, in 30 degree weather, you might not have to wait at all, or only a few minutes between shots. I have not gone to the range in 30 degree weather.
This problem has little or no affect on the hunter, as we all know the whole ball game rides on the first shot. Plus, usually you are hunting in cool weather. I killed my buck this year in North Carolina, it was 28 degrees at the time. Had I needed a quick follow up shot it would have been accurate.
But I didn't need one.

Odinbreaker · « **Reply #6 on:** December 30, 2006, 06:16:03 AM »

Smokeless muzzleloader make barells for the encore might be an option for you rather than a new gun. I have seen there adds no personal experience.

1187VX2 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 30, 2006, 01:35:19 PM »

The barrel cooling thing with the Savage isn't much of an issue when outside temps get below 50 degrees ; 45 & below is even better! I'll generally shoot 3 shots, look over the group, shoot another gun a few times & come back to the Savage.

If you only take 1 gun to the range and it is warm, it can be a bit of a hassle if you're short on time.

One of my buddies at work used to be a big Encore guy - then he bought a Savage. He's now looking to sell the 50 cal Encore barrel.........

Oldsnow · « **Reply #8 on:** December 30, 2006, 04:22:59 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on December 29, 2006, 02:57:45 PM

Check your game laws, some states do not allow smokeless powder. I have seen a lean to more states making smokeless illegal. It is a new law in Delaware as of last year that no smokeless powder is allowed in a muzzleloader.

Redhawk were can I find this smokeless powder law? There are a lot of people braking it in Delaware. The only thing I can find in my Delaware hand book, page 26 is, Muzzleloader no smaller then .42 caliber. I also see a lot of people shooting Savage muzzleloaders, Encores and Handy rifles with SMI barrels on them, using smokeless powder.

Bullseye · « **Reply #9 on:** December 31, 2006, 05:53:59 AM »

Now this 15 minute wait between shots could be a show stopper for sure. One reason to switch to the Savage is to be able to shoot it more without all the cleaning. When I shoot my Muzzleloaders now I shoot 15 to 20 shots. That would take hours instead of less than an hour. I will need to do some more research on this waiting period between shots, because that could really be show stopper.

Oldsnow · « **Reply #10 on:** December 31, 2006, 07:06:47 AM »

The wait between shots is not needed in the deer woods. One thing about the smokeless muzzleloader is, when you drop the hammer their is not a cloud of smoke to obstruct your view. As far as a follow up shot I can count on one hand the times I needed one and I have been hunting deer almost 60 years, with all kinds of weapons. The last forty deer I have killed were shot with a muzzleloader and only one of them needed a follow up shot.

kb · « **Reply #11 on:** December 31, 2006, 08:43:57 AM »

I have the Savage and really enjoy it. It is accurate, cheap to shoot, accurate, deadly on deer (bang/flop), oh and did I mention accurate?

If you want the up-most in accuracy, then you wait the 15 min cooling time. Its just the same as with any other rifle. When I go to the range, I usually bring my 22 to keep me busy.

kb

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 31, 2006, 10:21:43 AM »

Quote from: Oldsnow on December 30, 2006, 04:22:59 PM

Quote from: Redhawk1 on December 29, 2006, 02:57:45 PM
Check your game laws, some states do not allow smokeless powder. I have seen a lean to more states making smokeless illegal. It is a new law in Delaware as of last year that no smokeless powder is allowed in a muzzleloader.

Redhawk were can I find this smokeless powder law? There are a lot of people braking it in Delaware. The only thing I can find in my Delaware hand book, page 26 is, Muzzleloader no smaller then .42 caliber. I also see a lot of people shooting Savage muzzleloaders, Encores and Handy rifles with SMI barrels on them, using smokeless powder.

I got it from DNR Enforcement. I asked the question last year and was told by the Game and fish department that smokeless was not legal in Delaware. I will contact them again to get where it is written. I think, it is in tilted 7. Not the Game & Fish booklet.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 31, 2006, 10:23:02 AM »

Quote from: simonkenton on December 30, 2006, 05:54:25 AM

"It is like going from a Lincoln Navigator to a Ford Explorer. Grin But seriously, how does your encore shoot?"

It is like going from a Lincoln to a Ferrari is what you meant.

No I was right. No mistake.

mg66 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 31, 2006, 01:34:02 PM »

Illinois hunting regs for 06-07 state:

Only black powder or a “black powder substitute”
such as Pyrodex may be used.
Modern smokeless powders (nitrocellulosebased)
are an approved blackpowder substitute
only in muzzleloading firearms that
are specifically designed for their use.

I assume that means the Savage is legal in Illinois.

Busta · « **Reply #15 on:** December 31, 2006, 01:52:51 PM »

Quote from: mg66 on December 31, 2006, 01:34:02 PM

I assume that means the Savage is legal in Illinois.

mg66,

That assumption would be correct. Not only Savage but other Smokeless muzzleloaders as well.

Savage ML10 II
NULA (ULA)
Bad Bull
SMI

AndyHass · « **Reply #16 on:** December 31, 2006, 02:42:22 PM »

1 shot is fine for the woods, but the 15min wait time was the nail in the coffin for me getting a Savage. I put hundreds of rounds through my guns outside of hunting season....I actually shoot them rather than just hunt with them. Even my 300WM can hold accuracy with only 5min wait in 80 degree weather....I don't have time for 4 shots/hr.

simonkenton · « **Reply #17 on:** January 01, 2007, 04:48:16 AM »

Yes smokeless is legal in Illinois and the Savage boys have been slaying those big Illinois deer. Got lots of reports from them over on the Savage forum. Here is the report from one of our Illinois Savage boys.

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=1163816480

I like my Savage a lot but I don't like that 15 minute wait. I am used to going to the range with my Hawken and getting off 20 shots in an hour, more than that with a bolt action gun. I am not a patient man.
I don't like getting 4 shots an hour. Guess I need to take a second gun to the range with me. Come to think of it, that is a good reason for getting a second Savage.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 01, 2007, 08:07:52 AM »

Quote from: Oldsnow on December 30, 2006, 04:22:59 PM

Quote from: Redhawk1 on December 29, 2006, 02:57:45 PM
Check your game laws, some states do not allow smokeless powder. I have seen a lean to more states making smokeless illegal. It is a new law in Delaware as of last year that no smokeless powder is allowed in a muzzleloader.

Redhawk were can I find this smokeless powder law? There are a lot of people braking it in Delaware. The only thing I can find in my Delaware hand book, page 26 is, Muzzleloader no smaller then .42 caliber. I also see a lot of people shooting Savage muzzleloaders, Encores and Handy rifles with SMI barrels on them, using smokeless powder.

It is in title 7 of the Delaware code, in the Game law books we receive every year on the second page it refers to title 7 for laws not listed in the Game and fish booklet. It is the hunters responsibility to know the laws before they go out hunting. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Here is what it list about Muzzleloading. Notice it does not include smokeless powder. That was why I called the DNR and got the information and was told you would be sighted for using smokeless powder in a Muzzleloader.

http://www.delcode.state.de.us/title7/c007/sc01/index.htm#TopOfPage

"(f) A muzzle-loading rifle, meaning a single-barrel gun which is loaded with black powder and projectile through the muzzle, having distinct rifling the full length of the bore, shooting a spherical or conical projectile, ignited by a flint striking a frizzen or by a percussion cap, having a minimum bore of 0.42 inches (10.67 mm), minimum powder charge of 62 grains (4 grams), may be used in the pursuit, taking or attempted taking ("hunting") of protected wildlife, provided (1) such hunting takes place during the primitive weapon season established by the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control and is done pursuant to the requirements of law applicable to other means of hunting protected wildlife, (2) no person engaged in such hunting shall possess or use any multi-projected loads (buck and ball), explosive bullets or any balls smaller than .42 caliber. No weapon may be used for hunting deer during the primitive weapon season other than a muzzle-loading rifle or long bow. The Department may permit the use of a single shot muzzle-loading pistol being a minimum .42 caliber with a minimum powder charge of 40 grains during the primitive weapons season for deer, when using a muzzle-loading rifle to provide the coup-de-grace, if required."

Busta · « **Reply #19 on:** January 01, 2007, 09:40:19 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 01, 2007, 08:07:52 AM

It is in title 7 of the Delaware code, in the Game law books we receive every year on the second page it refers to title 7 for laws not listed in the Game and fish booklet. It is the hunters responsibility to know the laws before they go out hunting. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Here is what it list about Muzzleloading. Notice it does not include smokeless powder. That was why I called the DNR and got the information and was told you would be sighted for using smokeless powder in a Muzzleloader.

http://www.delcode.state.de.us/title7/c007/sc01/index.htm#TopOfPage

"(f) A muzzle-loading rifle, meaning a single-barrel gun which is loaded with black powder and projectile through the muzzle, having distinct rifling the full length of the bore, shooting a spherical or conical projectile, ignited by a flint striking a frizzen or by a percussion cap, having a minimum bore of 0.42 inches (10.67 mm), minimum powder charge of 62 grains (4 grams), may be used in the pursuit, taking or attempted taking ("hunting") of protected wildlife, provided (1) such hunting takes place during the primitive weapon season established by the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control and is done pursuant to the requirements of law applicable to other means of hunting protected wildlife, (2) no person engaged in such hunting shall possess or use any multi-projected loads (buck and ball), explosive bullets or any balls smaller than .42 caliber. No weapon may be used for hunting deer during the primitive weapon season other than a muzzle-loading rifle or long bow. The Department may permit the use of a single shot muzzle-loading pistol being a minimum .42 caliber with a minimum powder charge of 40 grains during the primitive weapons season for deer, when using a muzzle-loading rifle to provide the coup-de-grace, if required."

Redhawk1,

I don't mean to start something here, but is there a exception for muzzleloaders with a QLA. If you refer to the bold portion of your definition it states: "having distinct rifling the full length of the bore". A QLA or false muzzle by that defitition, would be illegal as I read it.

I have no idea what your Game and Fish Booklet states, and I know some States clear up gray areas in the law sometimes in their Hunting Guides. Just curious as to how they look at QLA's or false muzzles and smooth bore muskets?

AndyHass · « **Reply #20 on:** January 01, 2007, 11:15:51 AM »

You could argue that a QLA is not part of the actual bore. It is over-caliber of the actual bore. For example, some target .22s with which I am familiar have a "burp tube" well over bore diameter that extends the "barrel" to the minimum legal length. It serves no function in directing or influencing the bullet. It is not technically part of the barrel (though T/C includes the QLA for barrel length purposes we all know the truth).

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 01, 2007, 12:38:10 PM »

Quote from: Busta on January 01, 2007, 09:40:19 AM

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 01, 2007, 08:07:52 AM

It is in title 7 of the Delaware code, in the Game law books we receive every year on the second page it refers to title 7 for laws not listed in the Game and fish booklet. It is the hunters responsibility to know the laws before they go out hunting. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Here is what it list about Muzzleloading. Notice it does not include smokeless powder. That was why I called the DNR and got the information and was told you would be sighted for using smokeless powder in a Muzzleloader.

http://www.delcode.state.de.us/title7/c007/sc01/index.htm#TopOfPage

"(f) A muzzle-loading rifle, meaning a single-barrel gun which is loaded with black powder and projectile through the muzzle, having distinct rifling the full length of the bore, shooting a spherical or conical projectile, ignited by a flint striking a frizzen or by a percussion cap, having a minimum bore of 0.42 inches (10.67 mm), minimum powder charge of 62 grains (4 grams), may be used in the pursuit, taking or attempted taking ("hunting") of protected wildlife, provided (1) such hunting takes place during the primitive weapon season established by the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control and is done pursuant to the requirements of law applicable to other means of hunting protected wildlife, (2) no person engaged in such hunting shall possess or use any multi-projected loads (buck and ball), explosive bullets or any balls smaller than .42 caliber. No weapon may be used for hunting deer during the primitive weapon season other than a muzzle-loading rifle or long bow. The Department may permit the use of a single shot muzzle-loading pistol being a minimum .42 caliber with a minimum powder charge of 40 grains during the primitive weapons season for deer, when using a muzzle-loading rifle to provide the coup-de-grace, if required."

Redhawk1,

I don't mean to start something here, but is there a exception for muzzleloaders with a QLA. If you refer to the bold portion of your definition it states: "having distinct rifling the full length of the bore". A QLA or false muzzle by that defitition, would be illegal as I read it.

I have no idea what your Game and Fish Booklet states, and I know some States clear up gray areas in the law sometimes in their Hunting Guides. Just curious as to how they look at QLA's or false muzzles and smooth bore muskets?

To tell you the truth, I don't know. But it is a question I will ask.

GRIMJIM · « **Reply #22 on:** January 01, 2007, 12:56:44 PM »

I was wondering about the "ignited by a flint striking a frizzen or by a percussion cap" part of the regulation. Does that mean the 409 primer or the 25 acp conversion are illegal to hunt with? Or are primers considered percussion caps.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 01, 2007, 01:09:19 PM »

I do know that the 25 ACP and 209 primers are legal in Delaware. Also the QLA is not a problem in Delaware, it is not considered part of the "bore" I did not post all the rules in the Delaware handbook or the title 7 rules. I find out the information that I need to stay legal when hunting in my State or whatever State I my go hunt in. It is nice knowing people in the DNR, I can get information even on holidays.

So if you are looking for the answer to your questions or interpretations on the laws, do as I did and contact Delaware DNR for yourself. I am not going to look up every rule and post them here just because you don't want to do the home work. There are new rules established all the time and it is the hunters responsibility to keep up with the laws. Also I don't interpret the laws, I ask if I don't have a clear understanding.

Oldsnow · « **Reply #24 on:** January 01, 2007, 04:43:26 PM »

Redhawk thanks for the title 7 laws.
The only thing I could find out about smokeless was the law they passed about smoking in public places.
Like you said it does not include smokeless powder or any thing else that pertains to the kind of hunting rifles that we are using today.
Sorry I got you in a jam. Thanks again Oldsnow.

Like the tiltle reads. Think it is time for a change, I do.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 01, 2007, 11:46:30 PM »

Quote from: Oldsnow on January 01, 2007, 04:43:26 PM

Redhawk thanks for the title 7 laws.
The only thing I could find out about smokeless was the law they passed about smoking in public places.
Like you said it does not include smokeless powder or any thing else that pertains to the kind of hunting rifles that we are using today.
Sorry I got you in a jam. Thanks again Oldsnow.

Like the tiltle reads. Think it is time for a change, I do.

Oldsnow, no problem.
Also you might want to check out Delaware Title 7 Conservation, there are other laws listed there about hunting and fishing. http://www.delcode.state.de.us/title7/index.htm#TopOfPage

slave · « **Reply #26 on:** January 02, 2007, 11:38:22 AM »

What would cause them to generate that much heat?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 02, 2007, 01:06:29 PM »

Quote from: slave on January 02, 2007, 11:38:22 AM

What would cause them to generate that much heat?

Smokeless burns hotter and the bullet is going faster.