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Offline dave hall

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2004, 09:04:37 PM »
THE FIRST ONE I THINK OF IS THE 405 WIN. ITS ONE THAT I WANT REAL BAD IN THE #1-H,BUT THE NEXT CLOSE ONE IS THE 458 LOTT ALSO IN THE #1.IF I HAD A LOTS OF MONEY I WOULD BUY A RIGBY RIFLE IN THE 416 RIGBY.THESE ARE MY 3 RIFLES I WOULD PICK,BUT THE 405 IS THE FIRST RIFLE I THINK OF .


BIG GAME KNOW THE .411 :twisted:
NEF Handi SB2  .45-120 Sharps.
Stoeger Coachgun 20 Ga.
Ruger  SP101 4.2"  .357 Mag.
Rossi Ranch Hand (Mares Leg) 45 LC

Offline DUGABOY1

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2004, 07:51:22 PM »
gentlemen, The classic rifle in Africa is the venerable 375 H&H in a CRF bolt rifle with good iron sights, and a low powered variable scope in the 1- 5 X20 range, in QD rings and bases. This rifle is suited to all game in Africa, loaded properly, and with a person who can shoot it !  

   having said that, I would like to explain the choice!  The 375H&H is an easy rifle to learn to shoot close, and far, it is legal for all game in Africa, and anything smaller than 9.3 (.366) is not!  This is for a client hunter with little experience in Africa, and is the recemended client firearm by all PHs I know! If you want to see a PHs eyes roll back in his head, just uncase a 460 WBY , in camp. :roll:   Right away he is going to be leery of you!  Add a muzzle break to that PUSH FEED rifle, and he will go into shock!  He figures he is in more danger from you, than the Buffalo.
 
   My take on the quick detach scope bases on a hunting bolt rifle, In Africa, Alaska, or Canada, and in fact, any place thousands of miles from your gun room,is, you need a spare scope for your main rifle, already zeroed in QD rings, so if your scope gets an application of African handling, you can swap scopes in a snap!  The iron sights are the final back up to save a hunt if that spare scope is in the Bakki five miles away when your's is broken,and you are looking at a 45" buffalo, of a 60" Kudu! You may simply flip a couple of levers, and remove the scope and use the irons, without wasting a day of hunting, by having to retrace your steps to get the other scope, while bypassing a great trophy ! Another reason for the QDs is if you are using the same rifle for general hunting, but are going to be sitting in a blind for Leopard, and you may need a different type of scope, even a lighted reticle, VOILA!

   A 460 WBY will do nothing better than a 458 LOTT, except kick like a mule!  Tests have shown a .458 solid will actually penetrate less after passing the window of 2100- to 2400 fps.  The only thing speed does after the 2400 in a .458 dia cartridge is flatten the trajectory about two inches at 300 yds. That is, if you can hit anything at 300 yds with a 460 WBY. The .450  rifles are made for dangerous game, and game is simply not dangerous at 300 yds, so what is the point!  

   I personally never hunt in Africa, with the Cape Buffalo not being my primary target, and being a double rifle collector, and shooter, there is always one in my hand till I get my bull, or bulls. My light rifle is a FN Mauser 375 H&H, with a 1.5-5X20 Luepold VeriX 111 , in Warne QD bases, and my spare scope, is another one with a No4 german reticle, with a lighted dot in the center, using 300 gr Nosler Partitions, and Barnes Super Solids.   My double rifle will be one of several in the .400, to .500 range with my favorite a Westley Richards 500/450 NE.  

  There is an old saying in Africa, "THE 375 H&H, ONE WORLD, ONE RIFLE"
there is sound reasoning behind that saying. the old 375 H&H simply works in all types of hunting, and that cannot be said of any other cartridge in the world. With it you can hunt Texas whitetail, or a 14000 lb elephant, and be legal in both cases, as well as well armed, if you can shoot it! 8)  

   All only my opinion, but an opinion born of 61 years of hunting on my own from the age of six years of age, and 25 years of hunting in Alaska, and Africa!  Still it is only worth exactly what you paid for it, absolutely nothing, to anyone but me, and those I hunt with! :lol:
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Offline Lawdog

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2004, 07:18:58 AM »
DUGABOY1,

Quote
Tests have shown a .458 solid will actually penetrate less after passing the window of 2100- to 2400 fps.


Could you post these test?  Or a web site or mailing address where one can view or write for these tests?  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline DUGABOY1

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2004, 09:33:06 AM »
Quote from: Lawdog
DUGABOY1,

Quote
Tests have shown a .458 solid will actually penetrate less after passing the window of 2100- to 2400 fps.


Could you post these test?  Or a web site or mailing address where one can view or write for these tests?  Lawdog
 :D
 

  Lawdog, the tests were done by the Profesional Hunters assoc in RSA.  The results were printed in African Hunter Magazine, Then printed in Zimbabwe.  The magazine is now printed in the USA at Dallas Texas.

 
  There are some other things found out in the qualification shooting tests taken by PHs as well, that will open some eyes, and was printed in that magazine as well!
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Offline Lawdog

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2004, 11:19:46 AM »
DUGABOY1,

The reason I asked is the tests I have seen all show that the more velocity, the DEEPER the penetration.  Go to Grosswildjagd at http://www.grosswildjagd.de/penetr2.htm or go to GS Custom Bullets at http://www.gsgroup.co.za/sdplywood.html to view their tests.  They, along with other tests done by other outfits I have seen, show that anytime you take two cartridges of like caliber, using the same solid bullets, the faster one penetrates the deepest.  So like with drugs, Speed Kills.  Lawdog
 :D

PS - By the way I am very glad to see you here at Graybeards.  You have a lot to offer to various forums here and I for one will be looking forward to hearing from you.  Welcome to Graybeards Outdoors.
 :D  :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline JJHACK

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2004, 03:18:40 PM »
As a PH in Southern Africa who has gone to the academy, finished the aprenticeship,  and run the gamut of tests and data driven into our heads over trhe years of schooling I have no data that proves higher velocity will reduce penetration of solids.

With softs this is undeniable fact, but solids it does not add up. There has been a number of tests done that do confirm that velocities over 2400fps are a problem for .458 caliber bullets. None are directly due to less penetration ** directly** but do go down that path.

The issue is with bullet construction. The great majority of bullet failures occur with bullet impacts over 2400fps. Under 2400fps bullet failure is far less an issue. With Barnes X bullets the problem goes away with the bullet failure issue but those X bullets create another whole set of issues. Barrel fouling and excess pressure when shooting monolithic solids. They must be loaded down to function reliable in the Southern African heat. Hence there is no functional gain in vleocity then. The improvements can be made by shooting a slightly lighter weight bullet.

Personally I shoot 450 X bullets out of my 458 lot as my work rifle/ insurance policy. It has whistled through just about everthing I have shot with it. End to end, side to side any any angle. I have recoverd bullets from Elephant rhino and a couple odd buffalo shots. Thats it with well in excess of 100 animals shot with it.

So the higher velocity is an issue in penetration due to bullet failure. Even with solids and FMJ bullets. If you can find a copy of Mike Lagranges excellent bullet review book it's well documented. His chooice of rifle is a 458 win mag over the bigger 458 cartridges because bullet performance is consistant and predictable. He has killed more big game then anyone alive today. Well in excess of 6000 elephants at last count. That is clearly enough real world resolution to have a believable opinion!
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Offline DUGABOY1

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2004, 10:57:51 AM »
Quote from: Lawdog
DUGABOY1,

The reason I asked is the tests I have seen all show that the more velocity, the DEEPER the penetration.  

PS - By the way I am very glad to see you here at Graybeards.  You have a lot to offer to various forums here and I for one will be looking forward to hearing from you.  Welcome to Graybeards Outdoors.
 :D  :D


   Lawdog, I think JJ explained the thing in his post, better than I did. There is deffinetly a window of between 2100-2450 fos where the .458 diameter bullets work best. I was quoteing from memory, and at 67 yrs of age, soon the be 68 yrs old, that isn't as dependable as it used to be.  Now as was brought forth by JJ, the reason was bullet failier, in most cases. That would mean SN bullets. My contention is, that once a solid punches trough, why would anyone need more, and 2400 fps will punch a solid right trough, so why waste powder, and put up with extra recoil. The other half of the test session was the IDEA that  "If your .458 bullet fails to kill at 2400 FPS, what you need is a larger diameter BULLET, not more speed !"  With large bullets designed for dangerous game, speed above 2400 fps is simply not needed, no matter what Weatherby tells his customers!  8)

  :D  Thanks for the welcome!  I just happened onto this website, and it seems to be well laid out, and calm, with some like yourself, and JJ here to round things out from an experience standpoint!  :grin:
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Offline MarlinMan

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2005, 03:17:46 AM »
Being that my best friend is a PH in Tanzania,I would have to say .460 weatherby since that is his weapon of choice.
Every now and then,he will get a client that is not a very good shot and his .460 has never let him down on a fallow-up shot.
He mostly hunts buffalo.

Offline JJHACK

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« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2005, 05:32:51 AM »
If that is in fact all true that makes the first time ever I have heard of a PH with a Weatherby Rifle.

The "African Hunter" had an article by Don Heath, titled, "Zimbabwe Professional Hunters ("Rifa") Proficiency Exam. The test examines the proficiency of PHs, and their weapons/cartridges, under the simulated stress of actual situations that a PH might encounter. The article is still available as far as I know in the African Hunter, "Lessons Learned" article.

Heath went onto list American DGRs and how poorly most did in the exam. Here are some comments and it makes me wonder if American production rifle makers know what they are doing?

Very Poor List of DGR  
In reference to DGRs.
The Weatherbys were the worst offenders, exibiting the "usual" accidental discharge/ feeding problems, slow to reload.

The Remington's 700s were referred to as a "Piss Poor" DGR.... broken extractor in the .416s/.375s... hardest of the rifle to refill the magazines, with rounds popping out during the speed reloading exercise.... double feeds.

Ruger's recent models of the DGR were not given high marks either, especially when the bolt is cycled rapidly.... failure to eject.... Cycling the bolt slow it's OK... BIG $$$$. He went on to say that the Ruger #1 is more safer/dependable than their bolt actions.

Recommended
(After some work)
Winchester CRF has problems with the factory stock cracking proper bedding should solve the problem.

The Winchester safety is on the wrong side.... Personally, I agree with Don Heath on the Safety's position for on/off. I shoot synthetic or laminated stocks so this problem does not exist in a well made gun.

Praise Worthy by Heath
Heath goes on to praise the Interarms MK Xs, Mannlicher, Bruno/CZ. These all have their small individual problems as well, but the foundation can be built upon to create a good functional DGR.

Bottom line here is that we all buy a factory made car and use it every day, We don't however enter it into a race. The same with guns. We buy and shoot them every day for hunting, but the masses do not put thier lives on the line with it.

Much like a race car the user must fine tune the car or rifle for peak performance when used in competition or for safety. The key is starting with something that has a good foundation for this.  The worst example of this poor foundation is the Browning Stainless stalker with the A bolt.
The single worst rifle during my schooling in the Professional hunters academy was the Browning A bolt of which there may not have been a single student who was able to pass using one. They may not have had one that was still functional by the time the testing was over either! The broken cast metal parts of that cheaply manufactured rifle was amazing.

Since that testing I have seen several more fail in the field. I was standing behind a hunter of mine who was shooting off the hood of the truck one time. His A bolt Stainless stalker had the entire trigger guard and trigger shear clean off the bottom of his rifle at the recoil of the shot. I have seen several others lighlty dent the primers and not fire. Yet another had a barrel split from the end of the stock out to the muzzle. The list could go on and on. It's simply the worst firearm I have ever seen in my entire career.
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Offline Rmouleart

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2005, 06:07:41 AM »
This is one place on the earth you need over kill as much as possible, my choices would be 375HH, 416 rigby, 458 Win. real high recoil rifles, Lots of power, hurts on both ends;) A 338winmag is a little light for all the top ten game animals in Africa, but is fine for most of them, when you start getting to the waterbuff/capebuff and elephants etc...very big game, need a lot of penetration using a very large bullet. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Offline JJHACK

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2005, 06:20:31 AM »
There are no "waterbuff" in Africa and nothing smaller then the 375HH is legal anyway so that is always going to be the baseline or starting point.

DGR's by design should have almost no shoulder or as little as possible. The 416 Rigby is an excellent hunting rifle as as many steep shouldered cartridges are. They are not life savers though. The steeper the shoulder the more feed problems and the much greater extraction issues. tapered cases are the best design with nearly bore diameter cases to match up perfect with the bullets. This is the reason the Weatherby cases are not even remotely considered serious where dangerous game backup is concerned. They are a novelty cartridge with their only claim to fame bieng the highest velocity in each bore diameter. I think everyone knows that Dangerous game is killed with bone crunching bullet weight and diameter, not ultra high velocity. The stock designs are beautiful when in a gun cabinat all in a line, but try shooting one rapidly! the stock design is a nightmare for the power they dish out.

Just look at the best designed DGR's in the world. The stocks have a common trait, then look at a Weatherby stock and see just how much different it looks. All the Weatherby rifles are designed for scope use. No self respecting PH would use a scope on his Life insurance policy! I sure would not!

On another related issue, Mike Lagrange has killed more elephant than anyone alive today. Well in excess of 6000 in ZImbabwe's park damage control programs.  His findings were that .458 daimeter bullets with impacts over 2400fps were a dismal failure. Those from 2100-2300 had the highest success and  the lowest failures, even with solids and FMJ's . The 460 Weatherby starts out well above this 2400 maximum. It's claim of being the most powerful was met. But it's function on true dangerous game is dismal when compared to other cartridges of the same bullet diameter. It can be loaded down to function as well as the Lott and the Win Mag but if that is what you intend to do why buy it in the first place when it's not even a CRF rifle with a real safety?
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Offline Rmouleart

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« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2005, 07:21:42 AM »
hey JJhack a little food for thought.  Aim small hit small. RAMbo.  
Water Buffalo
One of the most difficult parts of discussing the Water Buffalo with citizens of North America ......or any non-Asian fan of the American cowboy or jungle adventure movie .....is to identify the correct animal. There are many closly related groups within the Order Artiodactyla or even toed animals.
The American Bison ...or American Western Buffalo is not a true buffalo but its own Genus . They are closer to cattle (Bos) than to the water buffalo and will interbreed with cattle.
The African Cape Buffalo Syncerus caffer is actually only a distant relative. Their reputation for a mean-tempered disposition has tarnished the Water Buffalo, with which they will not interbreed and which is classified in a different genus. Most water buffalo are generally docile and are frequently seen being tended and ridden by small children An apparent exception is the Egyptian male buffalo which can be highly temperamental..
There are two general types of water buffalo...the Swamp(Bubalus carabanesis)which are found from the Philippines to as far west as India ....and River(Bubalus bubalis)... which are found farther west from India to Egypt and Europe. NOTE: The genus name Bubalus is sometimes spelled Bubalis
The water buffalo has been associated with man from the earliest prehistoric times. Although the water buffalo was originally an Asian animal, it arrived early (about 600 A.D.) in the Near East and North Africa. It was introduced to Europe by crusaders returning in the Middle Ages and outstanding herds still exist in Italy and Bulgaria. In recent times, the water buffalo has prospered in South and Central America. Micronesia and Australia have also introduced them. China and Burma also depends heavily on the water buffalo and its products. India depends upon the water buffalo for meat and milk. In Australia and the US a secondary industry has developed in hunting them as trophies ....evidently as feral animals they can become rather wiley ....however to a reader from Asia or the Near East, I assume that this must sound like someone trophy hunting a Jersey Cow.
Before the mid 1970s, the only water buffaloes in North America were a few animals in zoos. The US imported ~50 animals in February 1978. Air freighted from the wilds of Guam, the US posession in he western Pacific, by Mr. Tony Leonards. Prior to that time (in 1974 or 75) four (or five) head of water buffalo were imported to the Department of Animal Science, University of Florida, for study. (See US water buffalo history). Ms. Patricia M. Sorrells has done a interesting analysis of this introduction. Several small herds, totaling about 3500 head, now exist in Florida,Louisiana, Arkansas and even Oregon. They are generally considered to be alternative exotic livestock.
According to the latest FAO statistics, the world buffalo population in 1982 and 1992 were 128 and 148 million, respectively, indicating 1.5% average annual growth rate for the past decade. The buffalo population in Asia was consistently 95-96% of the world total for the last 10 years. In South Asia, India, a country of the world largest buffalo population, accounted 53% of the world total in 1992 and increased her buffalo population by 880 thousand for the last 10 years with an annual average increase rate of 1.1% In India, water buffaloes make up about 35% of milk animals (other than goats) but produce almost 70% of the milk. In 1995-96 India was estimated to have about 194 million cattle and 82 million water buffalo...a 0.7%increase from 94-95. Pakistan with the third world largest buffalo population performed well to increase her buffaloes with an average annual increase rate of 4.7% Both Bangladesh and Nepal indicated positive growth of 5.7% and 2.1% respectively, while Sir Lanka recorded negative growth of -0.3%. China, having the second world largest buffalo population only after India, recorded 18.8 million in 1982 and 22.0 million in 1992 with an average growth rate of 1.6%.In Southeast Asia,Thailand held the largest buffalo population but lost a considerable number during the last decade with a negative annual growth rate of -3.4% Also the Philippines and Malaysia indicated the negative growth of -1.3% and -2.3% respectively. Indonesia, Laos, Vietnam and Myanmar did indicate positive growth with annual increase rate of 3.0%, 2.3%, 2.0% and 0.2% respectively. The buffalo number was 78 head per 1000 Asian agricultural population in 1982 while the corresponding figure was 82 in 1992. (0a)
Buffalo butterfat is the major source of cooking oil (ghee)in some Asian countries. In the US, they have been introduced as an "exotic" livestock with developers hoping to build a market for the distinctive mozzarella cheese and low cholesterol meat. A market for leather goods and decorative horn products is also developing.
In Asia, the Middle East and Europe, water buffaloes live on course vegetation on the marginal land traditionally left to the peasants.They help make human survival possible serving as a protein source, tractor and storage of family wealth. In some areas,they also provide recreation at annual racing festivals.
On Taiwan water buffalo are being replaced by western cattle and efforts are being made to protect the germ plasm. In 1980, Sir Lanka sponsored an international workshop on the water buffalo


BREEDS

The major genetic divisions of the water buffalo are the Swamp buffalo (Bubalus carabanensis) of the eastern half of Asia, which are slate gray, droopy necked, and ox-like with massive swept back horns. They wallow in any water or mud puddle they can find or make. And; the River buffalo (Bubalus bubalus)of the western half of Asia which usually is black or dark gray with tightly curled or drooping straight horns. They prefer to wallow in clean water.There is also the Mediterranean buffalo, which is of the River type but has been isolated for so long that it has developed some unique characteristics. Although there is only one breed of Swamp buffalo, certain subgroups seem to have specific inherited characteristics. For example, the buffalos of Thailand are noted for their large size, averaging 450-550 kg. and weights of up to 1000 kg. have been observed. Elsewhere Swamp buffaloes range from 250 kg. for some small animals in China to 300 kg in Burma and 500-600 kg in Laos. In Australia, the feral water buffalo has developed a characteristic appearance. In Indonesia a black and white spotted variety is known.
Only in India and Pakistan are there well defined breeds with standard qualities. There are 18 River buffalo breeds in South Asia, which are further classified into 5 major groups designated as the Murrah, Gujarat, Uttar Pradesh, Central Indian and South Indian breeds. Within these groups are breeds. The best known breeds are Murrah, Nili/Ravi, Jafarabadi, Surti, Mehsana,Kundi and Nagpuri. Most of the buffaloes of the Indian subcontinent belong to a nondescript group known as the Desi buffalo. Trinidad imported several breeds from India between 1905 and 1908. Crossbreeding of these animals has produced a Trinidadian type and these animals are the stock that has been imported into the US.

                       BUFFALO
                          |
         ______________________________       
                   |                            |    
  African wild buffalo                     Asian buffalo
  Syncerus caffar              ____________________________           Subspecies:                   |                           |
      S. caffar caffar   Wild buffaloes           Domestic buffalo
      S. c.brachyceros          |                          |
      S. c.nanus                |                          |
                                |                          |
                  _____________________________            |
                  |             |             |            |
            Indian wild Arni   Anoa         Tamarao        |
            Bubalus arnee     Bubalus       Bubalus        |
                            depressicorais  mindorensis    |
                                                           |
                                                           |
                                _____________________________
                                |                          |
                         River Type                   Swamp Type
                         Indian buffalo               Bubalus
                         Bubalus bubalis              carabanesis

Genetics

The Swamp buffalo has 48 chromosomes, the River buffalo 50. Some researchers consider it a separate species rather than a "type" on this basis (0).The chromosomal material is however, similar in the two types and they crossbreed to produce fertile hybrid progeny. Cattle, however have 60 chromosomes... although mating between cattle and buffalo does occur..... hybrids from the union are unlikely. In 1965, a reputed hybrid was born in the old USSR(1) and hybrids have been reported from China (2). Both reports seem doubtful because despite many attempts no other proven hybrids have ever been produced. Individual buffaloes show large variations in milk yield, conformation, horn shape, color, meat production, temperament, growth rate, and other characteristics. selection for survival under adverse conditions has occurred naturally (those that could not stand adversity died) and farmers have probably tended to select animals of gentle temperament. But systematic genetic improvement has almost never been attempted. It seems likely that further selection could quickly improve their productivity
Unfortunately, the large bulls that would be best for breeding purposes are often being selected as draft animals and castrated, or sent to slaughter, or (as shot by hunters). the result is that the buffalo's overall size in countries such as Thailand and Indonesia has been decreasing as the genes for large size and fast growth are lost.
The buffalo is still largely an animal of the village, and many of it's reported limitations are caused by it's environment rather than by the animal itself. The buffalo has long been considered a poor breeder... slow to mature and slow to rebreed after calving. Poor management and nutrition has contributed much to this reputation. Their gestation period is about a month longer than that of cows, buffalo estrus is difficult to detect and matings occur mainly at night so that the farmer/producer is likely to encounter more problems breeding buffaloes than cattle. It is also possible that Swamp/River crossbreed hybrids have reduced fertility.

http://www.nature.ca/notebooks/english/capebuff.htm
http://www.seaworld.org/AnimalBytes/cape_buffaloab.html
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/8240/buffalo.htm

Offline JJHACK

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2005, 12:53:50 PM »
Cape buffalo live in Africa
Water buffalo live in Asia
Bison live in North America

If you want to get scientific and critical by scientific names have fun with it.

There are not any water buffalo in Africa
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Offline VFR

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2005, 01:40:46 AM »
9.3x62 comes to mind as the common middle bore for many years.  I took a 9.3x64 for plains game this year and was quite satisfied with it's performance.  Bob

Offline VFR

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2005, 04:20:00 AM »
In rereading the posts on the .460 Weatherby, I don't see anything inherently wrong with the cartridge itself, just not a fan of Weatherby rifles.  My personal .460 is on a Brno 602 action.  I load 112gr of H-4350 for 2380fps with the 500gr Hornady.  It feeds and handles nicely, is pleasant to shoot, but it does weigh 10lbs with a 1.5-5 Vair X III.  It is infinitely more pleasant to shoot than my 7.5lb .416 REM on a Sako AV/McMillan stock.

Offline Rmouleart

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2005, 05:30:37 AM »
Ok there is no waterbuff in africa, but there is capebuff, and my point was taking about penetration, of big huge animals, cape buff and elephants etc...are very big animals. Need very big carts to expire adequately and humanly. Thats the bottom line. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Offline whodowl

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2005, 07:31:09 PM »
Well, this is probably not the proper answer as responsibility ultimately belongs to me.  But, to be honest the very first firearm that popped in my mind when I read your question was...the gun carried by the PH or whomever is my backup.  Insecurity I suppose. :oops:

Offline leadbutt

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2005, 09:21:35 PM »
When i first think of the Africa the rifle that pops into my mind is the , 4 and 8 bore front stuffers Baker and Selous made a deep impression on me.

JJ doesn't Saeed's favorite PH carry a Weatherby 460?

I saw on one of those damn hunting shows,a guy hunting buff,in africa and his PH was using a Weatherby-460, only reason I remember it was the guy botched the shot with his Ruger in 416, and the PH yelled at him "Hit him again ,,hes coming" and the next thing you see is the recoil from the 460 :eek:
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Offline gwindrider1

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First rifle for Africa
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2005, 05:23:04 AM »
The first rifle I think of in regard to hunting in Africa is a Mauser style bolt action, with open express sights and drop-box magazine in .375 H&H.

One planet, one rifle!

Offline Brian T

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rifle for africa
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2005, 01:11:44 PM »
How about the new8mm Win short magnum??  Plenty of power for non dangerous game, easy to carry all day long

Offline DelGue

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2005, 02:53:05 PM »
JJ

This is a good thread.  Though you posted it sometime ago, I thought I'd like to put in my .02 (for whatever that is worth)

The first gun/cartridge that comes to my mind is the .30-06 Sprg.  Simply because I don't think I'd ever hunt the Big 5, with the exception of buffalo.

If buffalo were on the agenda, the 1 gun/cartridge that comes to my mind is the .458 Win.  Why?  

I have a great appreciation for your experience and you make good sense, however, to my way of thinking and what I've learned, is the .458 Win makes good sense to me to hunt dangerous game.  "They call them Dangerous Game Animals for a Reason."  Their Dangerous!

I take responsibility for my own well being, and to have a PH backing me up is all well and good, but I would rather know my own limitations and abilities, than to trust in an unknown commidity (the PH) if I error with the shot.  

People being who they are, I would venture to guess that some PHs could care less about shooting, that they are more hunters first.  It might just be my luck of the draw, that I would get the non-shooter for my backup.  Then, to have to call on him to do so, only to find out he wouldn't be able to hit himself in the arse with both hands if he had to, let alone shoot a charging Dangerous Game Animal, well, you get my point.

 Also, I have not been impressed with PHs that I've known, that they shoot enough to keep their skills up to a level that I would concider safe.  I'm sure this doesn't apply to you, JJ, but never the less a real concern.  

Summary,
A .30-06 followed by a .458 Win Mag (in a model 70 or Ruger 77 RSM --- I buy American) for dangerous game.  

PS  The .458 Win Mag is my MAX for recoil.  I was totally intimidated by the .460 Wea. I once owned, but the .458 in the Winchester 70 w/o a scope, is light enough to carry all day and yet be able to shoot and place the shot where I want it to go.  On a heavy rifle, I see no reason to have a scope and all/most shots a completed very up close and personal.
Del Gue

Offline James B

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2005, 02:35:55 AM »
The first to come to mind are the 7x57 mauser and the 303 British. However they would not be my choice. I liked the 416 Rem Mag from the day it came out and used one for several years in the Ruger NO.l. The 375 H&H would be my second choice hands down. Model 70.
shot placement is everything.

Offline msorenso

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2005, 09:07:37 AM »
Any nitro express or 458.  Hey JJhack  what has better knock down than a 460 since you think it is not up you your standards?
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Offline JJHACK

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2005, 11:59:48 AM »
Being "not up to my standards" as you put it is not exactly within a proper context. The issue with the weatherby rifles is at several levels. For starters its a push feed rifle. I don't know of any serious PH that depends upon a PF for the big Dangerous game animals as a backup insurance policy.

Secondly it's designed only for scope use. The stock is not made to function easily with open sights. Fine for a recreational Sport hunter, but scopes have no place on a backup rifle.

Next the velocity and recoil with the stock design detract from the overall capability of the round. Quick second shots with a rifle that recoils that much are unrealistic.

And finally nobody makes a bullet that will perform properly at the excessive velocities the weatherby shoots at. The best velocity range for an 500 grain solid or soft is in the 2150-2300fps range. Some migh push this to 2400fps but that would be the very outside limit. The 460 Weatherby is going to be in the 2600fps range, and that is a range which will bend and destroy eeven monolithic solids.

For a real good scientific read on the topic get ahold of Mike Lagranges book Ballistics in perspective. He killed well in excess of 6000 elephants and knows a thing or two about what works. Mikes chocie after years of research and testing is the 458 Win Mag with proper loads. LIght recoil, bullets that maintain thier integrity within the velocity window and easy to find ammo.

My choice will also shoot the 458 Win MAg. I have a custom made 458 Lott. It's a devistating rifle that will far outperform a 460 weatherby in day to day use. Although it is not a "weatherby" status symbol it's a much better tool for the real world.
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Offline msorenso

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2005, 02:33:53 PM »
Thanks, I appreciate the advise! :D
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Offline Ramrod

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2005, 12:35:28 PM »
The first rifle that popped into my head was a .470 double. I guess I read too much in my younger days. The only "African" rifle I own is a Winchester Model 70 in .375 H&H. Doubt I will ever need another, but if I came into a pile of money, the big double would be mine.
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Offline K.K.

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2005, 01:41:47 PM »
The fist rifle that pops into my head is a side by side double Holland and Holland "best" rife with engraving and circassian walnut. Caliber .470 nito.

In the real world, I'd probably take a Ruger 77 in 458 Lott.

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Offline NONYA

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2005, 02:16:53 PM »
.416 Rem Mag
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Offline bulldurham

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2005, 07:48:55 AM »
Quote from: Mad Dog
For me, I close my eyes, and see a Ruger #1 tropical, in a .375 H&H, with a 1.5-5 VX III, witha zebra hide sling........ :eek: .... I gotta stop dreamin.

Mad Dog

                                                                                 
 :shock: gives me goosebumps just thinking about that  ^

i am suprised not to hear mention of a .404 jeffreys

Offline kenscot

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African hunting whats the first rifle the p
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2005, 06:18:59 AM »
winchester model 70 in 375H&H