Author Topic: 30-30 Reloading Problems (Read 2520 times)

cherokee75 · « **on:** January 04, 2007, 12:07:00 AM »

I am attempting to reload Sierra 110 gr. round nose bullets for my Marlin 336W. I am using a RCBS Rockchucker and Lee dies. The problem is, after a have loaded a full round to specs, OAL 2.530, the round will not chamber. It is almost as if it is too long but I have 170 grain factory rounds, at I beleive 2.550, and they chamber normally. I first thought my sizing die was not set right but I sent it to Lee and they set it back to SAAMI specification. Also, I have shot reloads my father in law made for me with the same bullets and they chambered fine. I have reloaded several hundred rounds for my .243, .41 Mag, and .45LC with no problems, so I am not entirely new to reloading. Also, a sized empty brass case will chamber just fine when I put it in manually but the rim of the loaded round does not sit flush and the action will not close. What am I doing wrong?

Castaway · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2007, 01:12:41 AM »

Try seating 0.001" to 0.002" deeper. Overall length seating depth guidance doesn't take in to effect the ogive of the bullet. It might be your lighter bullet is fatter toward the business end than the heavier bullet.

OLDHandgunner · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2007, 01:39:33 AM »

Try loading a empty round with that same bullet in the chamber to check the OAL. The only other thing I can think of is the crimp. GOOD LUCK

Mikey · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2007, 01:50:30 AM »

cherokee75: I will go with both the other suggestions especially regarding the effect of the bullets ogive. Whenever I reload for a lever action I first load a dummy round to length but do not crimp the case. I will try and chamber the load and if she doesn't go, I will seat the bullet deepr until she chambers properly.

If you bell the mouth of your cases you may have to run a dummy round through your sizer again, or just the neck, to see if that sizes your case enough to allow it to seat. You said that empty sized cases chamber properly, so your shoulder is set properly, so it sounds like it is the bullet/case mouth that is hanging you up. The ogive on the 110 gn slug is rounder (er, whatever) than on the longer 150/170 gn slug for the 30-30 and that may be the hang-up. Try seating it a bit deeper and resizing the neck with the bullet seated. Also, for your particular rifle you may need to use a Lee Taper Crimp Die for the 30-30. HTH. Mikey.

ggeilman · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2007, 03:59:21 AM »

I wonder if this explains the problems I was having the other day with my Winchester 94. I could not chamber reloads that I had made from my Marlin 336. It seemed though that the headspacing was slightly off even with full sizing.

Castaway · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2007, 04:49:52 AM »

On rimmed cartridges, headspace is controlled by the rim, not by any sizing you are doing.

Lone Star · « **Reply #6 on:** January 04, 2007, 06:22:20 AM »

Quote

On rimmed cartridges, headspace is controlled by the rim, not by any sizing you are doing.

Actually, wise reloaders ignore the rim and use the shoulder to establish headspace. Relying on the rim or belt and setting the FL die to bottom out on the press is one reason many shooters have case life problems. The issue is a combination of chambers reamed too deep and sizing dies reamed too shallow. This blows the shoulder forward with each firing, stretching the case and causing case head separations.

Many knowledgable reloaders set up their dies for rimmed cases just like they do for their rimless cases, just kissing the shoulder to insure free chambering. On bottlenecked cases the rim serves no purpose other than extraction...this is the 21st century, not the 19th.

.

ggeilman · « **Reply #7 on:** January 04, 2007, 07:42:04 AM »

Lonestar, how would you suggest I do that as a new reloader?

superhornet · « **Reply #8 on:** January 04, 2007, 08:13:58 AM »

LONESTAR---And many knowledgeable loaders set the headspace by using the rim...I will agree about using the shoulder on the belted mags.....Have 30-30 rounds that have been loaded 15 times, 31 grain W748, 150 CT Ballistic Silvertip, Win brass, F210 primer.......still good to go.....Of course, I will admit I probably do not have as much experience as most on this forum...I did not start reloading until Sept. of 1949....IMHO..I posted this because you made it sound like anyone who loads by headspacing the rim is OLD and rundown.ho ho ho ho.....

ggeilman · « **Reply #9 on:** January 04, 2007, 10:06:38 AM »

OK, all I know is I am new to reloading (about a month) and having a problem. I would appreciate any advice I can get.

Lone Star · « **Reply #10 on:** January 04, 2007, 10:56:20 AM »

The one problem with old reloaders is they often fear to do things differently - and they believe that they know better than someone with only 40 years of reloading experience. Practicing mistakes for 58 years does not make them right!

J/K SuperHornet

Obviously you older dies and chamber were made correctly so following the die instructions works for you - such is not the case with many of today's cheaper products. But anyone who has case life problems and still headspaces on the rim is just out of touch. If one reads the reloading manuals they tell you this, but the die makers say different. Confusing for newer reloaders.

GG - If your Marlin reloads will not chamber in the M94, then either the bullet is seated too long, the case headspace is too long, or the case is expanded too much radially. You need to find out which is the cause.

Your M94 chamber may be chambered shallow or the die may be cut too deep. Smoke the sides and shoulder of a few sized but empty cases and chamber them carefully, then check where the soot is missing. If the shoulder is bare and the case won't chamber, then the headspace on the case is too long and you may have to cut a small amount off the bottom of the die. I had to do this once years ago, although today I'd send the dies back.

Did you set the die so that it bottoms out in the press? This would insure that the die is sizing to its minimum headspace dimension. If the empty sized case shows the soot removed from the sides, then the die may be too large in diameter - the only soluton is a new FL die.

If the empty sized case chambers fine in the M94, then the bullet is either seated too long, or the crimp has expanded the case neck or shoulder too large to chamber in the M94. The 336 may have a larger neck or shoulder diameter.

.

Cowpox · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2007, 11:05:59 AM »

ggeilman, I had the same experience with 30/40 Krag. It turned out that I had my seating die turned down a tad too far. The mouth of the case was contacting the top of the die, which slightly colapsed the shoulder of the case. This enlarged the case diameter where the shoulder begins, causing it to contact the sides of the chamber. You could see nothing wrong, but you could feel it. I turned the die up a half turn, and the seating stem down, and all was well. Look at one of your rounds that failed to chamber, and see if you can see some abrasions by the shoulder, indicating it is scrubbing the chamber wall, or if you can feel a slight flare in that area.

Castaway · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2007, 12:21:11 PM »

Lone Star, I disagree. Head space is the relationship of cartridge base and the bolt of the rifle when in battery. On a rimmed cartridge, the rim is what controls it. Yes, you can blow out the front of the case so the shoulder butts the front of the chamber, but you aren't controlling headspace in that manner. Yes, you can get extended case life, and in some cases get an improvement in accuracy. A common misconception is that SMLE's have excessive headspace because of short case life. Not the case. Head space was maintained by selection one of three different length bolts by the unit armorer. They have generous chambers cut to allow cruddy ammunition to be loaded and it's a common technique to partially size them, but that ain't a headspace problem. As far as a 30-30 goes, they generally have tight enough chambers to not worry about it. If you have a rimmed cartridge rifle that you have to headspace on the shoulder, you have an unsafe rifle.

OLDHandgunner · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2007, 01:20:13 PM »

BOYS, BOYS, BOYS. Now lets settle down and get back to the basics of good handloading. We are talking lever action chambers not bench rest guns. Neck sizing a round for a lever, pump or auto is only going to create a problem at some point. Set up the dies for these guns just like they tell you in most of the books. Full length sizing, trimming cases, correct seating & proper crimp. Works all the time for me on these types of guns. Bolt actions & single shots are the ones to play around with neck sizing & OAL.

cherokee75 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 04, 2007, 06:49:44 PM »

Quote from: Castaway on January 04, 2007, 01:12:41 AM

Try seating 0.001" to 0.002" deeper. Overall length seating depth guidance doesn't take in to effect the ogive of the bullet. It might be your lighter bullet is fatter toward the business end than the heavier bullet.

Castaway,
I reseated the bullet. I adjusted the seating die, in very small increments of course, and tried to chamber the round after each adjustment. I finally got the round to chamber just fine with an OAL of 2.475. The manual, a Lyman (I forget off hand what edition), lists the cartridge with an OAL of 2.530. Judging by the marks on the bullet, I believe you were right about the ogive of the bullet. My question now is, should I be worried about the bullet being seated too far back from the rifling? I am using 31 grains of IMR4895 so there is still plenty of room in the case but again will it be set too far back from the rifling? As I understand it, if the cartridge is too long excessive pressures can build up from contacting the rifling. So how far back is too far? Like I said, I made tiny adjustments to the seating depth until the cartridge chambered fine so I feel like I should be alright. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks

Castaway · « **Reply #15 on:** January 04, 2007, 11:57:12 PM »

If you're using a 110 grain bullet, the charge of IMR 4895 you quoted is quite light, I don't see where you will have a problem with pressure. If anything, loading that lightly with a medium slow burning powder such as 4895 and such a light bullet may not be the best combination for accuracy. If you find it doesn't shoot well, try a slightly faster powder like 3031 or 4198.

qajaq59 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 05, 2007, 01:07:30 AM »

The OAL from the manual isn't really too helpful unless you know which specific bullet they used to measure it. A round nose bullet is not going to have an OAl anywhere near where a long tapered will be and still load in the rifle.

ggeilman · « **Reply #17 on:** January 05, 2007, 03:08:58 AM »

The stem pulled out a couple of times so I may not have it in the right position. I am not sure how to correct that with out sending it back. The rounds seem to chamber fine though in the 336. Rounds in question are remington 150 RN and it does seem to be the shoulder, but will check bullet depth next time I reload.

PA-Joe · « **Reply #18 on:** January 05, 2007, 03:43:34 AM »

geilmam are you talking about the depriming stem pulling out? You adjust it so that the tip of the stem just goes inside the hole in the shell holder when the press is all the way up. It should not stick out of the bottom.

Lone Star · « **Reply #19 on:** January 05, 2007, 03:50:35 AM »

Quote

I disagree. Head space is the relationship of cartridge base and the bolt of the rifle when in battery.

You are certainly welcome to disagree with me, but our general definition of headspace is incorrect. The NRA Firearms Fact Book gives this definition: "Headspace is the distance from breech face to that part of the chamber which stops forward movement of the cartridge case." The term has nothing to do with the case, at least not directly. We (the ammunition makers or handloaders) control the fit of the case in the chamber by manipulating the case. Rifle and die makers believe that belted cases should headspace on the belt (just like they do with rimmed cases) but reloading manuals recommend using the case shoulder to stop the cartridge in the chamber. Why? Because many factory belted chambers are too long in the belt-to-shoulder dimension, causeing short case life. Read the Speer manual's sizing recommendations for belted cases sometime. 100 years ago belts were put on cases to stop the case in the chamber but still allow the case to feed through a bolt rifle. Today we don't need to be limited by 19th century thinking.

Quote

A common misconception is that SMLE's have excessive headspace because of short case life. Not the case. Head space was maintained by selection one of three different length bolts by the unit armorer. They have generous chambers cut to allow cruddy ammunition to be loaded and it's a common technique to partially size them, but that ain't a headspace problem.

I suppose that you could look around for the correct bolt head to limit the slop in the rim recess of the .303 rifle, but none of mine are so set up. I simply set my sizing die so that the shoulder stops the case in the chamber, eliminating any slop in the chamber. Even with the correct bolt head, pushing the shoulder back each reloading cycle will stretch the brass and result in a head separation. My cases last forever, without buying various bolt heads (which don't solve the case life problem anyway). Why not solve the problem that exists by manipulating the case?

Quote

As far as a 30-30 goes, they generally have tight enough chambers to not worry about it. If you have a rimmed cartridge rifle that you have to headspace on the shoulder, you have an unsafe rifle.

Compare fired .30-30 brass at the local range to unfired factory cases sometime - I have. The case shoulder is visibly blown forward on every case I've checked, yet no one's gun has blown up or been damaged. I guess you just don't get it. That's okay!

.

Castaway · « **Reply #20 on:** January 05, 2007, 04:53:35 AM »

Lone Star, be nice. There was no personal attack in my post and I intentionally meant it that way. In the case of a rimmed cartridge, that part of the chamber that stops forward movement of the cartridge is where the front of the rim is to touch, per the NRA firearms fact book. I never claimed I used different bolts, just mentioned what the British solution was when rifles went in for maintenance or rebuild. Yes, I do load my belted cartridges to headspace on the shoulder just as I do for rimless cartridges. I even partially size my 303's to save case life. My point is that as far as headspace goes for a rimmed cartridge in a safe rifle, it's a done deal when the rim is mated to the chamber. I'll throw you another one. 45 ACP's really don't headspace on the case mouth. They headspace on the extractor! You can control headspace on a 45 by seating depth of the bullet. Remove the barrel and seat the bullet so that it is flush with the barrel hood or slightly less so on some finicky pistols. This guarantees consistent headspace to compensate for different sized brass, even from the same lot.

superhornet · « **Reply #21 on:** January 05, 2007, 07:34:34 AM »

Lonestar--If I set the shoulder back an eighth of an inch to long on a 30-30, where does it headspace ?? Can it still be fired since the theory will be that it is set back to far using the shoulder method ?? Most COL is given to the max length for the case and the bullet seated. On short bullets, 110 grain 30-30, seat it the old fashion way (one caliber depth) and your troubles go away...And if I have been doing it wrong for the past 58 years, please forgive me and I will try and do better. Shot a couple of moose using a 303 with #2 bolt face. Oh--I did try something new last month....married a 29 year old woman...ho ho ho

Lone Star · « **Reply #22 on:** January 06, 2007, 02:52:19 AM »

Castaway - That is what the smiley was for, to demonstrate a tongue-in-cheek response. I did not intend to insult you, and if you took my post that way please accept my appology.

SuperH - In case you didn't catch it, Speer notes in their Reloading Manual Number 13 (pg 263) that several brands of .30-30 rifles now have very short throats that will not chamber their 110-grain bullet seated normally. These bullets need more than a one-caliber seating depth, so your old-fashoned way will not always work with today's rifles. No matter how long we have been reloading, we learn something new all the time don't we?

.

ggeilman · « **Reply #23 on:** January 06, 2007, 05:46:58 AM »

Thanks, I will adjust the priming stem and readjust the die. Yes, the shoulders do have some issues with bulging.

daddywpb · « **Reply #24 on:** January 06, 2007, 11:22:28 PM »

Are you trimming and chamfering your cases? Inconsistant case length, and cases that are to long, can cause bulging at the neck after crimping. If a sized case will drop in the chamber, my guess is that it is a crimp problem.

STexhunter · « **Reply #25 on:** January 07, 2007, 03:55:39 AM »

Lonestar
I'm confused here. On the thread 400 Whelen, you be mentioned that a Weatherby headspaces on the belt regardless of the shoulder issue. Maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges here.

ggeilman · « **Reply #26 on:** January 07, 2007, 05:24:28 AM »

Well I readjusted the die and loaded 20 rounds. They all chamber. Thanks guys!!!

Castaway · « **Reply #27 on:** January 07, 2007, 07:33:20 AM »

Lone Star, no problem. I was functioning in my mode as a moderator when I got testy. The last thing we need is for personal attacks to screw up a good forum. Sorry, I didn't notice your "smiley." Back to STexhunter, at the risk of starting another contest to see who can spit the furthest, after the first firing, the brass blows out considerably to fireform in the chamber. The belt is another antiquated method of controlling headspace the modern cartriges with ample shouldes don't need. When loading the old Brit cases with a miminal shoulder, the belt served a purpose, but was carried over more for the mystique for Roy Weatherby's line of cartridges he called magnums. 270 WBY brass costs over $1.00 per piece and I want the most from it. My RCBS dies, even when set to full size the WBY cases don't reset the shoulder/overwork the brass. Ut-ohhh! Here we go again!

superhornet · « **Reply #28 on:** January 08, 2007, 02:26:59 AM »

Lone Star---Old fashion is normally tried and true....Any 110 grain bullet...Speer FMJ, HP, Hot-cor Sp seated to one caliber (7.8mm/ 308 dia) will chamber and fire in any 30-30 ever made. The one caliber seating is of course as you state is an "old fashion" recommended seating as a minimum...Remember, we are not talking about a benchrest or long range rifle. I ran into the problem with trying to seat the 110 RN way out many years ago trying to get it close to the rifling. This method works for any 110 grain by Win, Horn, SIE, etc. etc. The Speers have been fired in the 94, 336, 170, 340, 788, NEF......Of course these are older model rifles. Tell me the rifles that have a very short chamber and I will avoid them....I do not want a 30-30 that will shoot only wad cutters..Thanks for your postings they are informative and I learned a lot from you...

ggeilman · « **Reply #29 on:** January 08, 2007, 06:41:58 AM »

OK, I now have another problem with the bullet seating die on my 45/70. I wasn't paying attention and put a cast bullet upside down. I got the bullet out but now it it shaving lead off the rounds that I load. I took it apart and checked it, seems ok. And I re did the alignment, but to no avail. Any ideas?