Another of those wretched caliber comparisons - 308 vs 6.5 Swede vs 30-06

[BattleRifleG3]

I've been a stalwart 30 caliber guy, but have also been an armchair fan of the 6.5.  I've been severely tempted by a rifle or two in 6.5 Swede.  I've had the impression that it's an extremely smooth, flat shooting, mild recoiling, and extremely accurate round.

But I've taken a look at its ballistics and have yet to find a way it is significantly superior ballistically to the 308, which I consider an excellent standard.  I don't see any superior velocities or flatter trajectories (despite the much acclaimed ballistic coefficients of the 6.5 bullets).  For the same reasons I haven't been able to find any advantages with the 270 Win and 280 Rem over their parent cartridge.  Perhaps it is milder recoiling, but I have a hard time imagining it to have significantly less recoil than the 308, which I consider fine and acceptable for recoil.  And despite my desire to pop a groundhog with a 300 RUM, I'm far more likely to use any given centerfire rifle for moose and bear than for varmints.

But maybe I'm missing something.  Maybe the numbesr are wrong.  Have the advantages of the 6.5 over the 308 shown strongly to anyone here?  Any that weren't subjective more to the rifle (ie an excellent Swedish Mauser) than to the cartridge?  1/2 MOA is probably the best I would ever expect in my lifetime, and I've heard of far better out of particular rifles chambered for 308.  MOA would satisfy me for most practical hunting rifles.

Perhaps it's just the type of shooter who prefers the 6.5 who happens to be extremely accurate?

Ok, now for why I threw in the 30-06 - IF there is a small trajectory advantage of the 6.5 over the 308, might the 30-06 take back the lead?

Ok, your turn.  If you shoot both 6.5 and either 308 or 30-06, what do YOU think of the comparison?  I've never shot a 6.5 myself, so I don't know if it somehow achieves all the trajectory with half the recoil or somehow is much easier to shoot accurately (in gray ways I don't understand.)

Maybe I've answered my own question for myself.  But I'd be very happy to hear the thoughts of those who've experienced all of the above.

[jvs]

I too have always been a 30 caliber fan.  Nothing can do better in my eyes than a .308 or .30-06.  But I also just ventured into the 6.5mm range, with a 6.5 rem mag.  I don't really know why, other than I have a good friend that has always used a 6.5 mag since the mid 60's. 

For a short action, the boring .308 has no equal, and for a long action, the .30-06 almost stands alone, with the amount of ammo and reloading components available.  I almost expect a good performance out of the 6.5 mag, as to equal the 30-06 range but in a short action.  Either way, the use of a 6.5 mag will be new to me.  I'm sure I have a learning curve to overcome. 

It was time for me to use something different.  I chose the 6.5 mag.

   

[Cement Man]

I think you could sum up this discussion in a sentence or two - all three cartridges are "functionally" similar, or one could probably write a 6" thick book on differences and comparisons.  
I own and have used all three, in several models.  I never really thought about it before, but I guess right now I would say they are my favorite three cartridges.  I have asked myself pretty much the same questions that you are proposing, and since I am more of a casual shooter and hunter, I haven't really quantified the differences enough, nor am I qualified to cover the subject adequately.  There are a lot of folks on these boards who can, and I am sure will, do a (lot) better job than me.
Some of my thoughts.  I usually shoot my Swdes with 120-140 grn bullets, the .308's with 150-165's, and the'06's with 165-180's.  Recoil for me, follows that order as well. I have Swede Mausers, a Ruger M77 in 6.5, and a TCR 87 in 6.5.  All great shooters. With the TCR I can touch holes.  I think one thing that adds to the Swede's  vaunted reputation is the quality and performance of the Swede Mausers.  I'm guessing that the Swede Mauser has been the primary introduction for most people to this cartridge, and the rifles are high quality and generally excellent shooters.  It's kind of neat to shoot groups in the MOA territory with a 100 year old rifle. It doesn't hurt the cartridges reputation either.  SD is important and the 6.5 bore can give excellent penetration with the right bullets (up to 160gr) - getting into vitals, and taking game of substantial size.  Most of us older Americans are kinda .30 caliber people, so when we see great performance out an old Swede with 6.5mm holes, it adds to the luster of its reputation.
I think PBR with all of these cartridges with the bullet weights I use are close enough, that to me there is little practical difference, as I have hunted whitetails and elk.
I think all three cartridges are capable of outstanding accuracy and it will depend more on the rifle and the shooter when using loads which are correct for the rifle, than any generalization about one cartridge owning the accuracy crown - in my world.  I really don't know what would happen between the Swede and the .308 in a head to head contest with benchrest rifles.  I think the .308 would shade the '06, but in my world the differences don't show up.  In military permutation, I have seen some vintage '03 Springfields that go head to head with the Swede Mausers.
I think each cartridge does have its unique points of excellence, but they also share the qualities of accuracy and versatility. Any of the three give me every thing I can use, and I'd hate not having any one of them.  

[TC2]

But I've taken a look at its ballistics and have yet to find a way it is significantly superior ballistically to the 308, which I consider an excellent standard.  I don't see any superior velocities or flatter trajectories (despite the much acclaimed ballistic coefficients of the 6.5 bullets). 

What is your reference for the Ballistics? 

Looking at the Fed factory ammo in my Ballistic Explorer I find the following results:

Fed 308 150gr Nosler Solid Base BT BC= 0.395 Muzzle Vel 2800f/s  -- 1612 FT Pounds of energy at 271yards  --Drop at 300 yards= -24.0

Fed 6.5x55 140gr soft Point, Hi-Shok BC=0.434 Muzzle Vel 2600f/s --1648 FT Pounds of energy at 300 yards --drop at 300 yards = -25.3

[Slamfire]

It takes a 180 grain .308 bullet to hang with a 140 grain 6.5. If you use a .308 you can't get the velocity, and the .30-06 burns more powder, meanin' shorter barrel life. There is a reason the 600 yard match shooters fell in love with the 6.5-.308 wildcat that Remington legitimized as the .260. Try one, you'll like it. 

[captdp]

The key word is significant. For any thin skinned game up to 400lbs or so there is little difference on game provided one uses simmilar bullets. Also assuming the 6.5 is loaded close to it's potential. The 6.5 gets the nod in recoil. I've had/have all and prefer the 7x57, but they are very close in performance. The 308 and '06 are so close that they can almost be considered one with the avaliability of light mags, bullets and barrel length. They are probably better for bigger game at distances up to 300yds or so, espically where bigger bones might be hit, even though the 150gn+ bullets kill 'elk'in sweden every year. Buy the 6,5 and your 30 calibers will spend more and more time at home while you are hunting deer. capt david

[captdp]

The key word is significant. For any thin skinned game up to 400lbs or so there is little difference on game provided one uses simmilar bullets. Also assuming the 6.5 is loaded close to it's potential. The 6.5 gets the nod in recoil. I've had/have all and prefer the 7x57, but they are very close in performance. The 308 and '06 are so close that they can almost be considered one with the avaliability of light mags, bullets and barrel length. They are probably better for bigger game at distances up to 300yds or so, espically where bigger bones might be hit, even though the 150gn+ bullets kill 'elk'in sweden every year. Buy the 6,5 and your 30 calibers will spend more and more time at home while you are hunting deer. capt david

[tuck2]

I like to go to www.remington.com  where one can compare three rounds at a time.  I have a 308 Win , 264 Win and  30-06 .  I think most of the ft/sec muzzle velocity is  on 24 inch barrels. If you have a chronograph ,you can enter the bullet  ft/sec velocity and other data  into the Point Blank Ballistics Software at www.huntingnut.com   to get some comparsons. Have fun. Shoot a deer within 250 Yds with any of the three rounds in the lung area and you will be eating venison.

[lgm270]

The 6.5x55 may not be any better than more conventional rounds (i.e. 30-06  & 308), but it seems like it  is.   I've shot severals 6.5's and all were infallibly accurate, mild mannered and easy to shoot and easy to load for. They were accurate with almost every compoent bullet combination.  With most rounds, you strive to find a  load that shoots good. With the 6.5x55, it was more like trying to find a load that did not shoot good. 

I believe the 30-06 is a superior game getter because it's bigger, heavier bullets, etc. I would not hunt elk with the 6.5 but would have no problem doing it with the 30-06. 

 In  comparing the 6.5x55 with the .270 Win, etc., you have to  al low for the fact that there are great  differences in ballistics.   American factory loads with the 140 grain spitzer are about 2,600 fps.  I've chronographed factory Norma 139 grain bullets at 2,750.  I've seen handload manual data that shows 2,800 with the 140 Grain and 3,000 with the Nosler 125 grain partition bullet.   

A 6.5 mm (.264")  140 grain bullet at 2,800 is going to shoot flatter and have greater striking energy at longer ranges than a 30 caliber (.308") 150 grain bullet at the same speed.  The 6.5mm (.264") 125 grain Nosler Partition  at 3,000 is sufficiently close to the performance of factory .270 Win factory 130 grain loads at 2,950 that I would put such a 6.5 at parity with a factory .270.   I do think the 6.5x55  140/2,800 is superior to the .308 Win 150/2,800.   

On the net there is some guy with "duplex" loads that claims ,2900 with the 140 grain nosler and claims that it's superior to the 270  Win(!).     "Duplex Loads":  this means using two different powders in one load.  I forget which powders and how much, but  he posted on the web. 

I like the 6.5x55.  It's a "fun" caliber for me, but I  quickly grew bored with it because it was so easy to make accurate loads.  Somehow my "problem children" rifles always got more  time, attention and MONEY than my boring rifles that always shot accurately and never gave me any problems.  (Why is that?) 

I don't think the 6.5x55 is necessarily any "better" than  such old stand bys as the .270 and 30-06, but I do think it's better on paper than the .308 Win.  There is "something" about the 6.5x55.  I fiiddled around with it in milsurp rifles, but I know people who were so taken with it that they obtained commercial sporting rifles such as the now discontinued M-70 Featherweight and Howa 1500  in that caliber and some people have had existing sporters rebarreled to the 6.5x55.   I was at the range one day and there were three people with sporters in 6.5x55.  They were together, kind of like a club.  One of them bought a Swedish mil-surp, tried it, loved it, rebarreled a regular sporter, hunted with it, loved it, shared it with his hunting buddies and they were bitten by the 6.5 bug.   

All love the accuracy and low recoil.  They say the 6.5x55 has  killing power disproportionate to its ballistics.  I think that's probably a  subjective kind of conclusion, but I've heard it from many different people.    I think it is because the 6.5x55 is easy to shoot and easy to hit with and because a hit with the 6.5 will kill better than a miss from the more powerful 7mm Rem Mag.

[lgm270]

Here is a link to the  6.5x55 "duplex" loads I referenced.  I don't endorse this, but I just  thought it was interesting:


"QUESTION: Why do you use duplex loads of two different powders for reloading?
ANSWER:  Back a few decades ago, the spectrum of powders were limited to
surplus military powders and some commercial powders.  The burning rates
were specific for certain military use.  The sportsman reloader found that
there were times that the best performances were not possible with the
variety of powders available.  Mixing powders became common with those
seeking optimum velocities.  How this was done is now becoming a lost art.
However with all the different powders today there is really no need to duplex
or triplex any loads for any cartridge reload.  The only cartridge that I
duplex for is the 6.5x55mm with 140 gr bullet due to the lack of high
pressure loads for this chamber because all the manufactures underload
this cartridge and there is not a specific powder designed for it except
the Norma powders from Sweden.  They are more expensive than the other
manufacturers.  For Hunting purposes this cost is minimal and it is advised
to use Norma powders for this cartridge.  However for target shooting where
many rounds or consumed in punching holes in paper it is costly to me
at least.  Therefore I have resorted to duplexing with powders that are
less costly.  Besides I have gotten some great groups at 300 yards that
have made duplexing a habit hard to break.  (1" groupings with 140 gr
sierra matchking bullet and 22 gr H380 plus 28 gr 5010.)  Why mess with
a good thing.  Pressures with this load have been equal to factory loads
and yet the duplex load shoots higher.  With this accuracy one can almost
figure velocity from the change of impact.  If my calculations are correct
and a chronograph has been used to backup the calculations once when
the opportunity availed itself, the velocity is 2850 ft/s for this
cartridge and this load.  The other time I have used a duplex is with
a 7x57mm with 175 gr bullet.  I didn't care about accuracy as this was
a plinking trip and I just shot rocks.  The rocks did not care at all that
I was using duplex loads.  This was with a M98 with a 29" barrel and the
velocity seemed high as rocks puff up dust to a large degree when hit.  My
advice is to not use any duplex loads unless you know how to do it as it can
be dangerous if not done right.  If it is done with knowledge it is quite
safe and great performance is possible.  The theory is that pressure curves
can be flattened to increase velocity with less pressure.  Less pressure
means less barrel working and vibration--thus greater accuracy.  A nice
duplex load for the 270 Winchester is 33 grains of H870 25 grains of H380
behind a 140 grain bullet.  Starting load is 31 grains H870 and 25 grains
H380 and then work up carefully to 33 grains of the H870.  Due the 30-06
being very effient case it does not lend itself to duplexing as I have
not been able to get a good load for the 30-06 Springfield.  The 270 Win
is over bore therefore a good candidate for duplexing."


Here is the link:


http://www.xmission.com/~fractil/math/KPFAQ.html

[CowboyEngr]

I am also a 30 cal. believer, but really like the 6.5x55 for several reasons:  The 6.5 140 & 160 gr. bullets penetrate and kill very well.  The recoil (especially in the military dress Swede) recoil very mildly.  In my opinion, the 6.5x55 is nearly ideal for a young teenager hunting whitetails and larger game.  The 6.5x55 is perhaps a touch light for elk, but with a premium 140 gr. bullet, it is totally  capable for most shots that a teenage elk hunter might be advised to take (standing almost broadside within reasonable range).

I don't think it is necessarily better than some others that are similair to it, but it is certainly just as good.  It takes a good 30 cal. 180 gr. bullet to compare to a good 140 gr. 6.5 bullet and that means the 30-06 and bigger.  For a young person, the 180 gr. 30-06 can be intimidating, but I have never seen the 140 gr. 6.5x55 have that same effect.

[james]

In Nov. I took a whitetail buck and doe with my 6.5 encore and 139 gr hornadys on the same day.  The buck was a broadside pass thru about the 3rd rib.  The doe was facing me and the bullet entered center chest and didn't exit.  The jacket was fully mushroomed and fell out loose with the entrails.  The lead core was in a rear quarter.  The doe dropped and the buck wobbled about 30 yards. Last year I took a mulie in Montana with a Rem. 788 in .308. It was about 250 yards and did a nose dive when I hit it thru the shoulders with a 150 partition.  I take my 06 with 180 grainers when I go elk hunting.    I can't say one is better than the other because I use all three calibers. I reload and shoot the 6.5 the most because of the light recoil.  Since I have all three I use the 30 cals for bigger animals.
james. 

[Slamfire]

I am also a 30 cal. believer, but really like the 6.5x55 for several reasons:  The 6.5 140 & 160 gr. bullets penetrate and kill very well.  The recoil (especially in the military dress Swede) recoil very mildly.  In my opinion, the 6.5x55 is nearly ideal for a young teenager hunting whitetails and larger game.  The 6.5x55 is perhaps a touch light for elk, but with a premium 140 gr. bullet, it is totally  capable for most shots that a teenage elk hunter might be advised to take (standing almost broadside within reasonable range).

Unfortuinately my first cow turned dead away just as I found her in the sights, we found the 140 grain Patrition in her brisket, after I hit her between the hams. It was a mess to clean up, but you couldn't ask for better penetration.

[Mikey]

All three cartridges are standard pressure rounds, so you are going to have just about the same trajectory regardless of which one you shoot.  They are probably all within an inch of each other. 

My preference for the 30 caliber is the 06 - it handles heavier bullets better than the 308.  The 308 is OK - short action and the like but prefers lighter bullets which I feel destroy too much meat. 

The 6.5 is the winner for me.  To match the penetrability of a 140 gn 6.5 slug you have to use a 190-200 gn 30 caliber slug and they are way too heavy for Bambi.  For Moose or Elk the 6.5 is more than capable. 

I think the advantage of the 6.5 over the 308, certainly for me, is in the ability of that long 6.5 mm bullet to penetrate and bring down the animal without causing a tremendous amount of meat damage.  I look for the slug to penetrate, not necessarily expand.  My shots are shoulder shots and the 6.5 works.  As for accuracy - I have always felt the 6.5 outshoots the 308; mine does.

Also please understand that if you are looking at ballistic tables developed by an American they are not likely to favor a european cartidge.  You will usually find the caveat about the older euro cartridges in older mil-surp rifles while the same volume will hail the 308 as an all-American 'do it all' dandy. 

What is the advantage of using one stanrdard pressure round over another - your preference.  Mikey.

[oops!]

I just started working up loads for a new Ruger 77 Mk II 6.5x55. I have settled on 140gr.sp. Hornady Interlock over 44.5 grns. of Reloader 22/Federal large rifle primer, for my standard load. The load groups well and almost perfectly matches the Pentax Balistic Plex 200, 300 and 400 yd. aiming points.

BTW, the recoil, "feels lighter", than my .30-30 with 150 gr. loads. The muzzle blast is very light as well.

[BattleRifleG3]

I definitely favor a light muzzle blast when hunting without hearing protection.

[kyelkhunter3006]

I've owned them all and like them all very much.  For a target rifle, I like the .308 for the obvious reason of the available match ammo.  The 6.5x55 is a sweet shooter, very accurate.  The 30-06 has all the power most people ever need.  But I would split the difference between the three with the 7x57.  Light recoil, very accurate in a well made rifle, more than enough power for most jobs.  I think that as a pure hunting round, the 7x57 is tops.  I've had a couple, and all were superbly accurate.  My old Ruger 1A would put just about any factory load in less than an inch right out of the box.  Same with a semi-custom mauser 98.  I've pretty much turned to blackpowder muzzleloading for most of my hunting and shooting, but I am shopping for another 7x57 on a 98 action for my "one" rifle.

[S.S.]

As with most of these type of comparisons, it all comes down to personal preference.
I have all three and I prefer the 6.5x55 of the three. It will do just about anything the other two will
and does it with less recoil. I never fell into the Magnum craze and in no way feel that I have to have
a super powerful round to hunt with. If it gets the job done, that is enough for me.
In all honesty, I prefer my old .30-30 to all of them. I load 180 grain core-lokt bullets for it
and penetration has never been an issue. Inside of a couple hundred yard I feel very comfortable
with that cartridge. If the range is longer, I get closer.
I have a 6.5x50 also that is quickly becoming a favorite caliber. Miniscule recoil, deadly accurate.

[smokepolehall]

I have owned, shot and reloaded all 3! 6.5 has the mildest recoil. It has more than enough accuracy for most any type of shooting and hunting. I have an 1899 and 1916 Military 96. Folks talk about its too little for elk moose bears! Hog wash my Pa took a Kodiak Browny with the 1899 in 48 on Kodiak Island. It was over 10' sq. mature big Boar! Broke both front shoulders he told me. He also killed another with his 35 Rem. 141 pump.