National Guardsmen overrun at the Border by armed gunmen

[Almtnman]

Guardsmen overrun at the Border by armed gunmen

    AZCentral.com

A U.S. Border Patrol entry Identification Team site was overrun Wednesday night along Arizona's border with Mexico.

According to the Border Patrol, an unknown number of gunmen attacked the site in the state's West Desert Region around 11 p.m. The site is manned by National Guardsmen. Those guardsmen were forced to retreat…

    The Border patrol says the attackers quickly retreated back into Mexico.

Did you read that? U.S. National Guard troops were forced to retreat when armed insurgents from Mexico INVADED our country in Arizona!   

[billy_56081]

 INVASION!!!!

  I'm sure the press is gonna make this sound like its America's fault for trying to keep those poor innocent illegals from coming here to find a better life. I've seen only a very little coverage of thse animals invading our soverighn nation and attacking our soldiers.

   I hope they start shooting back. How can we stand for this after 9/11. We are being attacked in our own country and are not fighting back. We need to pursue these terroists into Mexicoand exterminate them.

[Almtnman]

Here is the story on Fox

[williamlayton]

Not to make light of it---but---how can you pursue if you are retreating?
Blessings

[Almtnman]

It was this type of incident that sparked the 1915 Mexican incursion by General BlackJack Pershing. We don't have any BlackJack Pershing's around anymore, but we do have a few that would do as good a job if the Pentagon would give them some free rein. I don't expect we will be seeing much of anything now that the dems are in charge.

[hardertr]

Fox didn't QUITE give the whole story.  They said there wasn't a single shot fired...what they didn't say was because the majority of the troops aren't even allowed to carry ammo.  It's more a "show of force" and an attempt to show OUR nation we are "taking homeland security seriously" (masterminded by those that have been improving on thier art of deception over the past 6 years......)

I hope this DOES blow up in the press.  Maybe THIS idiotic "plan" to put our troops in harms way will cause some changes.

I have a buddy down in Yuma, Az that works for the Border Patrol.  He got out of the Army after 14 years and started with them 2 years ago.  According to him, each agent is responsible for roughly 20 miles of border.  They have to respond to EVERY call made by the AZ Militia when they have "sightings" as well as the National Guard guys that call the illegals in.

Those poor guys are in WAY over thiers heads until they can get some REAL help down there.

[hardertr]

I don't expect we will be seeing much of anything now that the dems are in charge.

WHAT 

Good 'ole GW has bent the US over and allowed us to be "invaded" from the south in more ways than one.

[Almtnman]

I don't expect we will be seeing much of anything now that the dems are in charge.

WHAT 

Good 'ole GW has bent the US over and allowed us to be "invaded" from the south in more ways than one.

True and I don't agree with his illegal issues myself, but as I said, I don't think the dems are going to do any better if anything at all. We have unarmed troops on the border and it's being invaded by gangs of armed insurgents, maybe even military from the south and all I hear from dems is pull troops out of places. If we are going to protect our borders, then we need to do that, not debate them into stopping.

[sparsons]

If this doesn't wake someone up then nothing will. It is common sense that "lets see the national guard aren't armed but the border patrol is, where should I try to cross over after all I do have weapons." The way I understand it none of our guys got hit but shots were fired. Anyone out there know what the laws are on the national guard firing on armed people illegally crossing the border. Of course they would first have to have weapons to fire but that being understood what are the rules of engagment?  I heard a general say the other day that over in Iraq there are seven requirements that must be met before our troops can fire. Isn't the national guard considered an arm of our military? So a group of armed men from another country invades our country and fires on our troops and our government issues no reply to the Mexican government.  As far as I am concerned we should issue a warning that anyone coming across illegally will be shot on sight. This event should be a warning to all of us to stop thinking that these are people that just want to get along and have a better life. There are reasons  they come across illegally and I don't believe for one minute that it is simply because it is the quickest and easest way. Many have hidden agendas other wise most of them would come across at the border crossings.

[magooch]

It has already been demonstrated that if our guys shoot back at the illegals and happen to hit one, the shooter (our guy) gets prosecuted.  I think the feds are deathly afraid of a border war.  I say, bring it on.  First though, we've got to have our leaders grow a pair.

[Almtnman]

Yep, your'e right...too many girleymen at the govimint controls right now! 

[Almtnman]

So what are you saying with that statement? If some armed men show up at our house, we should back off and let them have free rein?

I have a real problem with Mario Martinez stressing that "there was no attack." I would more or less call it an invasion of our border and security lapses of our country. What would happen if a bunch of armed Americans showed up on the Mexican side of the border? Do you think they would arrest us or shoot us or simply back off and see what happened next?

[DWTim]

Over sensationalize much?  They observed armed men and backed off.  The Guard can fire in self-defense.  But that situation never arose.  The armed men subsequently left.

I see, so if they Guardsmen were not there (say if our lonely ICE agent was somewhere else on the 20 miles of border he protects), where exactly would these illegals be going, and what would be their business?

[DWTim]

They were drug runners most likely.  I assume that a lone BP agent would call in some backup.  I suspect that a BP helicopter would be there quickly.

Just to clarify: He would call in backup if he wasn't there to observe the illegals?

I'm just asking. I'd like to know at what point Mexico takes some of the blame, or at the very least, at what point they absorb some of the responsibility.

And no, I don't expect the National Guard to lay an ambush on them. But at this point, that they are smugglers is supposition on your part, since the soldiers retreated. However the article does raise an interesting point: Since it was dark enough outside that our people couldn't make an accurate count, how exactly did they know the illegals were armed? I should also ask why our men weren't equipped with IR devices.


EDIT: grammar

[sparsons]

The problem is we don't know what they were up to and at face value it doesn't look good for us. anytime a branch of our military goes into retreat it sends the wrong message. Granted they were not armed--why not?  I do not think anyone is trying to sensatiionize anything.  The fact is a band,group, gang, call it what you will put our National Guard on the run in our country. What kind of message does that send to our enemies? I did noticed that SSS said he asuumed they were smugglers.  Well I assume they might not have been. I can assume they were a small army  sent by some one in the middle east----prove me wrong.  You cant.  That is why the National Guard should have been armed and guarded our national security then we would not assume the best  or the worst we would know. They could have captured them and found out the truth.

[sparsons]

Logic is relative to ones life experiences and education. To me it would have seemed logical for Japan to surrender after we dropped the first bomb. They didn't.  I don't think it is logical for someone to strap a bomb on their body and walk into a building and kill themselvs and others. But they do. To me it is not logical for a person to highjack a plane and crash it into the twin towers. But they did twice. Logic only works when the other person see things the way you do and that is a pipe dream. In war if one does the logical thing then he is likely to be defeated because the other side will know exactly what he will do in any given situtation-logically speaking of course. Don't bet your life on logic, you might lose it to someone who acts illogically.  Still the question remains why did our government put the national guard in such and embarrassing situation. It is not logical for a branch of the military to be "guarding" our borders in military uniform with out weapons to back up their presence.

[Almtnman]

What kind of total moron would do something so thoroughly stupid and useless?  Invading Mexico over what looks like a handful of armed drug smugglers turning around once they were spotted is beyond dumb.  Causing a war with an Ally over illegal immigration is just dumb.  It causes a worst problem.  And Pershing never caught Villa anyway (and his raid on Columbus was actually an attack instead of this fantasy you and Fox made up).

First off I don't appreciate the insinuation of being called a moron or called a liar and making up fantasies in another post you made. If you can't debate like a gentleman, then you shouldn't even post. Everything I posted on here came directly from news sources, but I did notice that most of your posts seemed to be assumptions, as you refered to that not once but several times in several differnt posts. Then in the quote up above you made the statement that Mexico was an Ally of ours. I hate to tell you this, but Mexico has never been an Ally of the U.S.! They have did more against us than ever helped us.

My assumption used logic instead emotion and prejudices though.

Just what was that logic and what was the logical assumption? And where do you get off making a statement that prejudice was ever mentioned in anyone's post at any time? We reported an incident on the border and it seemed to set you off into a tirade.

[DWTim]

What responsibility should the US have for people crossing one of our international boundaries without going through an official crossing?  I assume about the same responsibility that Mexico has.

The U.S. is obligated to take her citizens back. If the problem was so great that it was straining relations with the other country, it would be the responsibility of the U.S. to stop it, or face the consequences. I note the absence of any official U.S. government pamphlets describing the means to illegally cross over into Mexico and take advantage of the benefits there.

The "people" not using an "official crossing" seems passive to me, so I put this forth again: If it was too dark to make an accurate count of the intruders, how did the Guardsmen know they were armed?

I concede that it may just be bad reporting by Fox News.

[billy_56081]

  Any armed invasion of our country should be met with swift and overwhelming force. If the insugent terroists flee back to Mexico. Our troops should pursue and exterminate them there.

  The government of Mexico is allied with these criminals and if they refuse to help stop them we need to take them out of power.

   This insugencey is being fueled by profits from drugs that are poisoning our youth. This is an invasion by criminals. Not some poor "undocumented immigrents" like the granola eating crowd tries to tell you they are. They are murdering, thieving , drug dealing criminals and need to be stopped now. 

[Graybeard]

SSS, I don't know who or what the hell you think you are but this is your ONE AND ONLY WARNING.

Back off. Get out of this thread and DO NOT make another post to it.

If you EVER again make a personal attack or call names on this site you will be banned for life. I'm very tempted to do so right now. ANY and I do mean ANY behavior on your part not meeting with all the rules of this site will result in you departing it. I absolutely DO NOT put up with the kind of behavior you've displayed on this thread. READ THE RULES.

I would expect an apology from you to James via PM for the manner in which you've conducted yourself here as well.

You have no more chances left. I better not see another post in this thread from you below this one and I better never ever see a personal attack or name calling from you again.

[powderman]

  Any armed invasion of our country should be met with swift and overwhelming force. If the insugent terroists flee back to Mexico. Our troops should pursue and exterminate them there.

  The government of Mexico is allied with these criminals and if they refuse to help stop them we need to take them out of power.

   This insugencey is being fueled by profits from drugs that are poisoning our youth. This is an invasion by criminals. Not some poor "undocumented immigrents" like the granola eating crowd tries to tell you they are. They are murdering, thieving , drug dealing criminals and need to be stopped now. 

BILLY. Ya make too much sense. I believe ALL of the illegals should be stopped in their tracks, the mexican govt is helping these people. These people are invaders, not guest workers, not undocumented workers, but ILLEGALS. What part of ILLEGAL is so hard for some of these people to understand? POWDERMAN. 

[Almtnman]

Whatever reason the armed men from the south had, whether it was drug runners or a test of our border security, I think we vastly failed that test. Our borders are porous and we have unarmed troops on the border. Now every terrorist in the world knows and that's not good.

[billy_56081]

  What the h#$% are troops unarmed for? ITS just not the current administration, but all administations I can remember in my 39 years on this earth. Thats get our soldiers killed by not letting their job. A soldiers job is to kill people and break stuff. An unarmed soldier is akin to a casterated stud bull.

  I was upset to hear the volunteers that went to the border to help were called vigilanties. They were good hard working honest americans that tried to help out.

  I live in southern MN in a small town and we are overrun with illegal aliens. My brother is the county sheriff and says the INS will not even pick up the ones that are picked up for a crime unless its a major felony.

  The way I got it figured is the Dems want em for votes and the Republicans want em for cheap labor so no one is gonna change this in the government.

[jgalar]

Put up 2 fences on the US side of the border. Put landmines between the 2 fences. Put signs in Spanish and in pictures on the southern most fence warning of the landmines.

Problem solved!

[billy_56081]

I agree 100% jgalar.

 Its too bad the granola eating pukes in this country can't see it the correct way.

  These people think its " something we can all discuss" What thier colledge education didn't prepere them for. ( and I have a colledge degree) (although my spelling in most poss mightnot say this) Is these people want to change our way of life. ( I think we as in americans live pretty good). Is Damn good.

   So many of the granola eating pukes have had it so good that thay think the world is easy. Its not!

  well enough for now and all a good night.

[williamlayton]

Boy! I missed out on all of the excitement.
There is something I remember about the National Guard, military being unable to be used to enforce law in a state---not sure of the wording. I do think that there will need to be a change of law here---and that is a double edged sword--the sharp side being aimed at the states.
I think I would need to stop and think about the total ramifications of some of these suggestions.
NOW, I am in favor of doing something and I do think we have the folks in place to do something if the laws in place at this time are simply enforced----may need a few more hands to do the work.
Invasion---boys we have not been invaded---well anymore than we have been invaded since 1836 here in Texas.
Yup, a few more hands and some stern upholding of the laws in place. Some folks rankle under the thought of stern enforcement. Some of these folks have never given over too being an American. I would not give any clue to how you can make an american citizen want to be an american though.
Blessings

[powderman]

15 million IS an invasion. They were not invited. They shame the millions of good, law abiding immigrants who have come here legally. Most of the LEGAL immigrants are decent, hard working people. They have adopted our customs, learned ENGLISH, and are proud to be AMERICANS. In my opinion these invaders are trespassers  and are criminals and should be treated accordingly. They don't like their country, change it, leave mine alone. POWDERMAN. 

[hardertr]

Here's something for you "conspiracy theory nuts" 

Do you think it is possible that this whole event was STAGED or intentionally misrepresented in the press??  Look at the timing.  Less than a week after the Democrats get to flex thier new muscle in Congress..... and just in time for some serious bashing to by newly announced presidential hopefulls.

Just asking.  This story has gone from the more likely "drug run gone wrong" to an all out invasion of our border by Mexican troops carrying Al Quaeda on thier shoulders so thier nukes don't get wet.  I figure conspiracy is the next logical turn.

[Almtnman]

I'll have to agree with you powderman, I think we have been being invaded for a good number of years now. No matter where you go these days, you see more and more hispanics everywhere and they don't speak our language. They have brought their country to ours, even went as far as raising the Mexican flag at some school in California and flew the American flag upside down on the same flagpole. To me that is an invasion no matter how you spell it.

The border incident might have been small, and again it might have been a little test of our system. Little things like that eventually turn into big things. Just like we were getting a few illegals across the border a few years back and now it's like an expressway.

[powderman]

I'm all for LEGAL immigration, we have some fine real immigrants right here in our own community. I can't stand these pukes who move here only for what they can get. They flood our schools with their ILLEGAL kids, draining budgets, and in some cases demanding that their brats be taught in spanish. They have no intentions of ever becoming Americans. They refuse to learn and speak English, instead they set up their own little tijuanas all over America so they can thumb their noses at our laws and go yabba dabba dooo all day. An illegal last summer called 911 because her baby quit breathing, for some strange reason the dispatcher spoke ENGLISH. They traced the call, baby lived, the media concentrated on poor baby, instead of the illegal mother who had lived here over 5 years refusing to learn the language, her attitude and ignorance almost killed her child.  When these people are caught they should be deported immediately. Second time caught, jail and hard labor for 5 years. Kids born to illegals should NOT be given citizen status, they are just like their ILLEGAL parents. They pay no taxes in most of cases, yet they draw welfare, food stamps, and now the govt wants to give them social security checks. They are definitely no benefit to my community. POWDERMAN.