Cast bullet ?

[jack19512]

Anyone care to tell me what might be the most common problem when it comes to cast bullets and what might cause a cast bullet to keyhole at a reasonably close range and the accuracy being horrible?  This is from a rifle that is very accurate with jacketed bullets.  Thanks

[Castaway]

How fast are you pushing it?

[Nobade]

Assuming the bore is clean and free of copper, the twist rate is appropriate for the weight of bullet being used, and the load is appropriate, good lube being used, the most likely cause is the bullet is too small for the rifle's throat. Remember, you don't care about groove diameter like so many old books say. You want to size to or no more than .0005 under the throat diameter. If using a bore riding design bullet, you want it to be a snug fit in the muzzle with the lands engraving slightly with a hard thumb press. If it fits and isn't loaded too hot it won't keyhole or lead the bore.

[jhalcott]

  When I shot "SILLYWETS" with the 10" 30-30 barrel I'd get keyholing at 50 yards. The cause was the 185 grain cast bullets i was using. I never lost a hit chicken,but did miss a few! . You don't really give enough info to make an educated guess. Bad lube,bad fit to bore? Not even caliber/ barrel length? Even alloy CAN be a problem. Is there evidence of leading in the bore? We'd love to help,so tell us what is going on!

[jack19512]

Sorry for not being very specific, I just didn't want to throw in a bunch of info and confuse anyone.

The rifle is my M/N 91/30 which is the 7.62X54 caliber.  I used .309 diameter 180 gr. and .311 diameter 185 gr. cast bullets from wheel weights.  I used the Lee liquid alox lube.

I didn't have but a couple of rounds of each to try but it did seem the .309 diameter bullets did keyhole more than the .311 diameter bullets.

As far as velocity goes I really don't know, I don't have a chronograph.  I cleaned the bore when I got home and there didn't appear to be any excessive leading.

[jhalcott]

  the guys over at www.castboolits.com can help you a bunch more if you ask. I think your bullets are too small as the M/N had a .310 bore.Some of the guys I know that shoot them use a .312 gas checked bullet Also ,for some reason ,MANY of the M/N's don't shoot heavy bullets well. try some 150 thru 170 grainers. The LLA is a good lube up to 2000+ fps in my experience. JUST DO NOT KEEP THE AMMO IN YOUR POCKET.! Try some home made felix lube ,you'll like it.

[JPH45]

Sorry for not being very specific, I just didn't want to throw in a bunch of info and confuse anyone.

The rifle is my M/N 91/30 which is the 7.62X54 caliber.  I used .309 diameter 180 gr. and .311 diameter 185 gr. cast bullets from wheel weights.  I used the Lee liquid alox lube.

I didn't have but a couple of rounds of each to try but it did seem the .309 diameter bullets did keyhole more than the .311 diameter bullets.

As far as velocity goes I really don't know, I don't have a chronograph.  I cleaned the bore when I got home and there didn't appear to be any excessive leading.

My M44 has a bore diameter of .301  and a groove diameter of .314   It will shoot .310 bullets at 900 fps nicely. Step on the gas (1600 fps) and the bullets disappear   I'd bet my rifle that your problem is twofold, you are going too fast, and doing so with a bullet that is undersize. A.309 ain't gonna get you where you need to be. I'd also bet my rifle that you need a bullet that is at least .312 Best way to find uot what is happening is to slug your bore, then make a chamber cast using Cerrosafe. The next best way is to get some .312 bullets and see how they shoot. The lest best way is to shoot what ya got slower. Load up 9 grains of Blue Dot and see if the bullet flies to the paper nose first. If the last test doesn't make any difference in what you are seeing you have real problems and the first test is a must before going any further.

[jack19512]

jhalcott

Thanks for the reply.  This particular rifle shoots the .308 jacketed bullets very well in the 150, 170, and 180 gr. reloads of mine.  After I shot the cast bullets I shot a group of 3 each of the jacketed bullet reloads and they grouped very well.  I forgot to add I didn't use a gas check on these cast bullets.  It is my understanding I should not exceed around 1400 fps without a gas check.  Where do I get a recipe for the felix lube?  I am a member of the castboolits forum, I will post this question there also.  Thanks again.

[jgalar]

.309 will not work and will lead up the barrel. You need .312 or larger. If you are using the Lee mold it casts out at .311 - you can still do OK by putting on and sizing the check at .312 or larger. If you are using the Lee sizers the .312 and .313 sizers are special order and will cost about $25 each. Slug you barrel to see what you need to size to. Cast bullets shoot great if you can seat the bullet to engrave the rifling when chambered. Can't do it on any of my MNs. Are you expanding the case mouths before seating the bullets?

Try 16 grains of 2400 - shoots well in MNs, Mausers, Swiss and similar sized cases. This is a load from an Ed Harris article I posted here a couple of years ago.

[jack19512]

JPH45

I would agree I am probably going too fast.  I don't have any Blue Dot powder, any other suggestions on another powder to use?

[jack19512]

.309 will not work and will lead up the barrel. You need .312 or larger. If you are using the Lee mold it casts out at .311 - you can still do OK by putting on and sizing the check at .312 or larger.

So far I just have the .309 and .312 molds.  I don't use gas checks yet.  Are they necessary at the lower velocities?  Yes, I am expanding the case mouths.

[jgalar]

I haven't had much luck getting accuracy using bullets designed for gaschecks wtihout the check. I believe without the check the hot gases are allowed to attack around the base and start melting the sides ?? When using the Lee .312 sizer on the bullets cast from the .312 molds the check is seated at .312, but the bullet is hardly touched if at all. IF using the Lyman#2 lead the Lee molds cast out to their designation. Using wheel weights they are a bit smaller. Slug the barrels of your MNs and Enfields you may be able to get a sizer that will work for all of them. You can also cast up some .314 handgun bullets.

[jack19512]

[/quote]

I'd also bet my rifle that you need a bullet that is at least .312
 
[/quote]





I got 5 molds for CHRISTmas and the .312 mold is the only one I haven't tried so I fired up the pot and cast some .312 bullets, they sure turned out nice.  I haven't had a bit of trouble with any of the 5 molds I got.

I ordered some gas checks but haven't figured out how I am going to crimp them in place yet.  I guess I will have to special order the Lee .312 sizer die.  Lyman has a .312 sizer but for everything it would be well over $100.00 for everything .

[wgr]

i agree slow it down and get a bigger bullet i shot a gas check bullet in my mauser  i dont use the gas check though  i use acorn meal as a filler  that protects  the bullet base
 i keep it around 1600

[Sir Charles deMoutonBlack]

I have had luck with one turn of teflon gasfitters tape.  Without the gascheck, I put in a pinch of "teddybear guts" (Dacron).  You have to clean thorougly when changing from copper jackets to Alox lubed cast bullets.  The Teflon doesn't seem to have tha same problem.

[jhalcott]

  sir charles,  that teflon does work but you still need a decent bullet fit. I got chastised on here once for advocating the use of dacron/polyester fill. Yes dac/poly has it's place, maybe not in bottle neck cases though!??  Lets treat Jack like a new reloader ! THEN we can teach him some tricks later when he has a better idea of what to look for.  This is NOT a flame,just a suggestion!

[jack19512]

I reloaded some more rounds today using the bullets from the .312 mold and with less powder and they shot real good.  No keyholes and the groups were good.  I think I am on the way to good shooting with these cast bullets.  With any luck I will be able to post some pics tomorrow.   

[Sir Charles deMoutonBlack]

jhalcott;  just describing what works for me.  I don't use it with black, but it does seem to solve some of the kinks when one needs a small game potting load for fool hens or bunnies.  For targets, I still think alox in a dedicated rifle, or at least a well cleaned barrel is great.  BTW, I use only enough Dacron to keep the powder back, and I learned it from the NRA cast bullet book.

Another thing I don't do is lubricize cast bullets for rifles.  Rub on some alox lube with your fingers, or use Lee liquid alox applied by hand.  It's ok  to shoot them big, (as much as  2 thou over groove) unless they won't chamber.

Congrats Jack.  It's a great feeling when things start to go right, and YOU made the bullets!

[jack19512]

Shot some more cast reloads today.  Both targets were shot from 58 yards.  Not very pretty to look at but no keyholes and I did hit the paper.   

Right now I am using some Czech mil-surplus powder.  I know they will get better as I experiment with my loads.  I may need to try some more powders but right now I am just getting a feel for this.  I may still be pushing them too fast.

91/30 58 yards


K31 58 yards