Author Topic: .458 Winchester Magnum, Why Is It So Bad??? (Read 4073 times)

Lawdog · « **on:** May 01, 2003, 11:40:51 AM »

Although I don't own a .458 Winchester Magnum, YET, I have read accounts of those that do. In his article "The Danger of Elephant Hunting" by Jim Carmichel, Shooting Editor Outdoor Life Magazine wrote that "When Winchester announced its .458 Magnum in 1956, it effectively ended the reign of the great British Nitro calibers." Not to bad for a cartridge that is supposed to have a bad reputation.

Jim Carmichel goes on to write that "All of the elephants I've taken were with a do-it-yourself rifle I put together back in my college days-when hunting elephants was only a dream-and .458 Winchester Magnum ammo that I handloaded with 500-grain Hornady steel-jacketed bullets. The reason for using steel-jacketed "solids" is so the bullet will penetrate several inches of an elephant's thick, honeycombed skull without deforming or coming apart." If the .458 Winchester Magnum will do this consistently, what more could a hunter need or want?

John Kingsley-Heath, outfitter and white hunter, Professional Hunter, was, from what Jack O'Connor wrote, instrumental in helping Winchester with the testing of the .458 Winchester Magnum and which became a favorite of John's after the testing. Lionel Palmer, probably one of, if not the greatest of modern day lion hunters liked and used the .458 Winchester Magnum. If professional hunters like these and others put their trust in the .458 Winchester Magnum why are they so wrong? I'm not questioning that the .458 Winchester Magnum has a bad name, I would like to know who, how and why it got the bad name after it has worked for so many. Can anyone here enlighten me? Lawdog

Joe4d · « **Reply #1 on:** May 01, 2003, 02:01:45 PM »

Most if not all gun rags are nothing more than industry advertisements. Anything developed in 1956 has to be bad. Or else how can all the writers tout the latest greated wizbang on the market. My first thoughts when looking at the 300WSM were gee winchester reinvented the 30/06. But if you beleive all the gun rags. It's the greatest thing since sliced bread. reguardless what anyone says, it is mass and velocity on target. Velocity helps hitting the target at unknown range. Assuming a proper bullet as weight and velocity increase and caliber decreases penetration increases. And I can tell you for a fact. A 130 year old hard cast 500 or 600 gr .458 bullet at anywhere near 2000 fps second will penetrate anything walking on this planet.

Ron LeClear · « **Reply #2 on:** May 01, 2003, 02:08:59 PM »

:yeah:

AMEN!!!!!!!

DennisB · « **Reply #3 on:** May 01, 2003, 03:25:48 PM »

I'm waitin' to see how the .458 WSM turns out. :eek:

KN · « **Reply #4 on:** May 01, 2003, 04:18:44 PM »

Lets see, What would you base that on? Maybe a 50 BMG case. KN

new snake owner · « **Reply #5 on:** May 01, 2003, 04:53:27 PM »

ya know one of these days I am gonna have to get me one of them new fangled 458 winchester magnums!! Right now my collections newest caliber is a 375 H&H (last time I checked 1920somthing), it sits right next to my 30-06, 30-30, and 45 colt. I guess I must not have anything that would work on a chipmunk at point blank range :-D

Cabin4 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 02, 2003, 12:37:46 AM »

Most rag writers want velocity. If you don't have high velocity, you are a bad cartridge. Some folk, and I think many more than we can imagine actually think that velocity is what kills game ! Not to mention the fact that any cartridge developed prior to 1980 is OLD STUFF not capable of doing the job as well as the new stuff like the new WSM's, MAgs, ect.

There's a lot of bogus info being thrown around this industry about cartridges and the 458 is just another victum.

This all coming from a guy who's most modern cartridge is a 357mag. After this, I'm all bad, down hill and just a plain irrisponsable hunter using cartridges that are not good for humanly taking game.

John Traveler · « **Reply #7 on:** May 02, 2003, 04:41:12 AM »

Hey, Lawdawg!

I sota recall the late great Elmer Keith writing that he encountered many african profession hunters that did not like the .458 Win Mag in a bolt gun because there was a tendency for bullets in the magazine to get battered and pushed back into the case after several recoil impulses. He and others, much preferred the big double rifles for reliability and quick follow-up shot.

marlinman93 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 09, 2003, 06:02:33 PM »

Having owned a Ruger #1 Tropical in .458 Win Mag, I can tell you the worst thing about it was whether the animal felt worse than I did after getting shot by it. At least the pain was over for the animal instantly, while my shoulder still hurt for days!
I got rid of mine and bought a #1 in .45-70, that is much kinder to my shoulder!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #9 on:** June 17, 2003, 12:00:55 PM »

amen to that my no. 1 with a 500 hard cast at 2300fps pops you smartly and is absoultly no fun on the bench without a recoil sheild. But for penetration it will shoot through almost anything. I know i wouldnt want to be on the recieving end of it.

Quote from: marlinman93

Having owned a Ruger #1 Tropical in .458 Win Mag, I can tell you the worst thing about it was whether the animal felt worse than I did after getting shot by it. At least the pain was over for the animal instantly, while my shoulder still hurt for days!
I got rid of mine and bought a #1 in .45-70, that is much kinder to my shoulder!

rb in ar · « **Reply #10 on:** June 19, 2003, 08:01:11 PM »

The .458 Win. is a great cartridge. That remark is made from having more experience than wishing to own one. More than one toothy, clawed, or hoofed encounter has been ended by mine.

Being only 52 years old I was not old enough to engage in big game hunting in 1956 but my father was. He told me of the .458 experiences of some in the early days. It seems that two explanations for some not caring for the .458 had some valid merit. It seems some hunted with the wrong bullets. On really big game or dangerous quary that is a serious mistake in any calibre (yes I still use the King's spelling). The second reason is still valid today if one handloads. It seems that a really hot load shot in really hot weather makes some rifles difficult to cycle. The factory loads long ago accounted for this. The handloader might still want to not go overboard in hot weather as a few extra foot/pounds are of no use if you cannot cycle the bolt.

It is amazing how lore is loved more than fact. You can see how lore gets started as it does not take many failures in front of something intent on scratching, stomping, or goring you to death to make an impression. Still the .458 is reliable a big game selection as can be made.

The double rifles of the past and present certainly have their allure. The old 4 and 8 bores looked like Elephant guns with their massive sized bullets and cases. It is natural that their users of 50 to 100 years ago would question the use of such a different tool as the .458 bolt. But surely by now we have layed such doubts to rest. If you don't believe me ask one of the many PHs who trust his life to it most every day.

doc-and · « **Reply #11 on:** June 23, 2003, 05:37:42 PM »

I'm new here but so excuse me for statinging my opinion. I was able to buy factory 458 mag ammo from an estate sale for about $0.10 per round (bought 300 rounds) I didn't even own one. Purchased a new model 70 Winchester Super Grade, and love shooting it! :grin:

Shooting buddys think I'm a little crazy, but who cares what they think.
The ones who have asked to shoot it will usually only pull the trigger once before handing it back and go find an ice pack.

I've never had a bullet in the magazine retract into the case. and never had any problems obtaining groups (offhand) that you could cover with a fifty cent piece. Great Gun!

Paul H · « **Reply #12 on:** June 24, 2003, 07:22:50 AM »

The problem with the 458 win mag is the case simply isn't big enough to drive a 500 gr bullet @ 2150 fps with reasonable pressures. Yes, some folks have recently developed handloads that achieve those velocity levels, though one wonders how well they will funtion in tropical conditions. A dangerous game cartridge is one that needs to function not 95 or 99% of the time, but 100% of the time, and the win mag is simply too little case for too much bullet to do what it needs to do.

As far as the win mag ending the reign of the Nitro Express rounds, that also isn't true. Due to financial problems post war, Kynoch ceased producing the NE ammunition. Winchester just happened to be at the right place at the right time. It really was the only option for a period of years.

Lawdog · « **Reply #13 on:** June 24, 2003, 09:04:44 AM »

doc-and,

Hello and welcome to Graybeard Outdoors, the best forum for hunters and shooters on the net(my opinion). No reason to excuse you because voicing your opinion is why were here. Ask or answer any question you would like to. I hope you'll stop by often and add your voice to the rest of ours. Lawdog

rb in ar · « **Reply #14 on:** June 26, 2003, 11:02:33 AM »

I don't know what level of speed a rifle should obtain. I don't know how powerful a round ought to be. Many people are not satisfied with the .460 Weatherby so rounds (for reasons I can't explain) eclipse even its' great power. I don't know if cartridges like the Weatherby, NE, and Lott preform that much better than the .458.

I do know this. I shoot, they die. This has happened enough times if I was using an unreliable rifle the opposite would have happened.

Quote of the day: "A healthy Buffalo is mean. A wounded Buffalo is mean and sinister".

Florida Jim · « **Reply #15 on:** June 29, 2003, 05:36:10 AM »

I Read an article somewhere that Graig Boddington did a survey of 100 African "PH's". 48 of them carried .458win's, 17 416's I don't remember if Rigby or Remington.

Jim

Lawdog · « **Reply #16 on:** June 29, 2003, 11:17:55 AM »

Florida Jim,

From the PH's I've talked to I would say the .416 that Graig Boddington was referring to would be the Rigby. Great cartridge. Lawdog

MS Hitman · « **Reply #17 on:** June 29, 2003, 02:42:05 PM »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a .458 Win Mag. I have it in a #1 and will admit the fun slows down after about ten rounds off the bench. That is why God invented recoil pads. I get real close to 2100 fps out of her in these real hot Mississippi summer days. So if it goes to Africa, I do not expect problems as the times during the year I would be there it is much cooler than the temps I experience during load development. The highest the temp got while I was there last was in the middle 80's.

Some of the PHs I met over there use the .458 Lott. Some extra punch, but it will also shoot the shorter .458 Mag. I will eventually happen upon a place when I have the money and a Model 70 is for sale.

KING · « **Reply #18 on:** July 06, 2003, 05:23:34 PM »

For what it is worth guys. A recent poll of African professional hunters are using the .458 Win almost 45 percent of the time. I kinda figure that they might know a little bit. The quantity of .458s used surpasses the .460,.416,and all of the others that are available. Interesting. Stays safe.......King

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 18, 2003, 11:07:57 AM »

With later powders(especially Re15 and some of the newer balls) and better dies and reloading techniques there are no problems. The old reputation came back from control officers firing a round or two then reloading the mag over and over. With early loads, the cases weren't sized small enough, crimps and cannelures were weaker so the bottom rounds had the bullet driven back into the case while in the magazine from earlier recoil. This decreased capacity making an overload. Also had problems with early ball powders "caking" inside the case causing incomplete burning and severe bloopers. All straightened out pretty quickly, but the legend had been born. Modern bronze 400-465 gr bullets leave more room for powder but penetrate like steel jackets. With everyone chasing .416's and Lotts, there might be a chance to pick up a bargain on to truly good guns. Shh! Don't tell anyone.

choppa · « **Reply #20 on:** September 21, 2003, 12:23:54 PM »

One of the main reasons that the 458 Win mag was not highly reguarded was because when the cartridge was first introduced, the factory crammed that much powder in to achieve the published velocity that in warmer climates the powder would clump together causing erratic performance, the projectile could sometimes be seen bouncing down range! this did nothing for hunter confidence, who would use such a calibre when your life is at stake? these days with better performing modern propellants we dont have to worry so much, this is one of the reasons as to why the 458 win mag has a bad reputation in the pusuit of Dangerous Game.

Boesman · « **Reply #21 on:** September 27, 2003, 07:48:42 PM »

You guys have all the right reasons here:
1.Case capasity leads to not enough speed for 500gr of bullet ie. 2200fps
2.Case capasity in old loads leads to compaction, and subsequint ammunition failure
3.Construction of early solids in calibre deformed, to thin steel jacket not reaching elephants brain
4.People hunting dangerous game with softs
5.Premium bullets were unheard of

You do not want to face a cape buffalo with a rifle you do not trust!!

Nothing wrong with the calibre its was just the ammunition of the time all the improved 458's do is what the factory intended for the 458win mag!

It is a graet concept! With lots of components for the reloader from 300gr to 600gr how is that for versatility??

It will drop the most dangerous of african game with regularity.

unspellable · « **Reply #22 on:** October 07, 2003, 07:35:42 AM »

You have to realize what the 458 was supposed to accomplish. It in no way replaces the old nitro cartridges. Winchester's objective was to get big game performance from a standard length action and a standard bolt face. Hence the 375 H&H case was shortened and necked up. It was an inexpensive cartridge in an inexpensive rifle. The low cost was the main contributing factor to its popularity.

My first gripe is that, name not withstanding, it isn't a magnum. The term magnum implies a larger than standard case for the caliber. The Winchester 458 has a smaller than standard case.

Performance wise, the ballistics just barely make it for a cartridge of this category. The case is just too small to get more out of it. The factory load is bally hoo'd as 500 grains at 2150 fps. From a real rifle over a chronograph owned by somebody other than Winchester it has a difficult time breaking 2000 fps.

In the early days the factory solid was not very good. Now days we use better bullets so this is improved.

It needs a good rifle. My 458 shed pieces due to recoil while we were getting sorted out. It's a bad mistake to put it in a double rifle. With a rimless cartridge in a double, you are looking for an unpleasant surprise at the wrong time. It belongs in a magazine rifle or perhaps a single shot.

The belt creates a few problems in resizing.

It really comes into its own when viewed as a souped up 45-70. Ballistics in this area are adequate for anything in the Western hemisphere up to and including Kodiaks.

Recoil is pretty noticable. A lot of this is due to the stock fit on an inexpensive rifle. I have an English double rifle that is far less punishing due to a better stock fit. The best illustration of this principle is the Winchester Model 1894 carbine. The 30-30 is no great bruiser of a cartridge but the rifle will batter you thoroughly due to the stock design.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 08, 2003, 08:58:25 PM »

Quote

I'm waitin' to see how the .458 WSM turns out.

They're making one? I think that would be great, something probably a little tamer but plenty powerful for North American stuff. No, I wouldn't buy the "It's as good as the full length" sham. But I think it would be a good thing to have.

LILED · « **Reply #24 on:** December 27, 2003, 03:18:16 PM »

I've just purchased a 458 winne. It is a ruger 77 that has great dark wood and is hard chromed. I put a peep sight on its 21 in barrel and have just used one load it is a 400grn a-frame in the federal prem. line.

I shot it to regulate the sight, it did it with in 8 shots. I've taken 4 game animals with it a axis deer,red stag(deer), russian boar, and cors. Ram. It is becoming my second fav. hunting rifle. It does'nt use that much powder and it bleeds game very well. The recoil while stout is controllable. It is in my humble opinion is right behind my ruger #1 ss 375 H&H on large game.

Thanks
Ed

PS there is nothing bad about this jewel of a round

hubel458 · « **Reply #25 on:** December 28, 2003, 07:34:48 AM »

Most of us that have a gripe about 458, got upset with Winchester
and the problems they had with early loadings.For us big bore nuts
we felt that it was putting big bores in a bad light.BUT our greatest gripe was that Winchester when they made the case the could have just as
easily left it full H&H length,ala Lott or Watts.Some wildcatters had already done it and the company had actions handling 375 that would have been perfect in full lengh 458.Then the powder and early loading problems
would have been negated as the extra length would have given 2300
fps with milder loadings.And Winchester would have locked up the 458 size market.Probabably would would have sold twice as many 458
rifles.They were really stupid..Ed.

Don McCullough · « **Reply #26 on:** August 05, 2004, 05:17:17 PM »

Joe4d,

What you've said below--I love it. You got it right. There's not been much improvement in sporting ammunition in the past 100 years. New/Better B.S. sells !

Don McCullough

Quote from: Joe4d

Most if not all gun rags are nothing more than industry advertisements. Anything developed in 1956 has to be bad. Or else how can all the writers tout the latest greated wizbang on the market.

crow_feather · « **Reply #27 on:** August 06, 2004, 07:06:08 PM »

Winchester was trying for less cost, ie: standard size action. If not for the desire to reduce action legnth, they probably would have made a mini 460 Weatherby.

C F

Questor · « **Reply #28 on:** August 09, 2004, 03:52:06 PM »

Craig Boddington's book Safari Rifles is a very good survey of the safari rifles that are available today. The 458 seems to have less penetration than some hunters would like. The 458 Lott seems to solve this problem.
Boddington writes that he has not yet chronographed a 458 Winchester with a velocity greater than 2000fps, even though the claim is about 2150-2200fps. This difference is deemed to be significant, and the 2000fps figure is comparable to some hot loaded 45-70s. I've seen similar stuff written by others.

Robert · « **Reply #29 on:** August 10, 2004, 02:21:06 PM »

Choppa and BlackHawk44 nailed it on the head. It was the clumping of old powders with compressed loads trying to get more out of the case in foul weather and horrible humidity.
Clumps of powder would blow out the barrel and the bullet would just impact an elephant enough to piss him off.
P.S. Please pardon my humble reply. I am certainly not an expert on African hunting or dangerous game, but I love to read about such wonderful things. Someday.....ah...to dream......