Author Topic: Some things in Life just don't make sense.. (Read 3561 times)

IC Cowboy · « **on:** January 10, 2007, 09:28:57 AM »

I called H&R early this morning to find out if the new 444 Marlin barrel would be available in 1:38 or 1:20 twist, they put me on hold for a few minutes and got back with me and said they would have to call me back, so I gave them my return number, they did call back and much to my dissapointment said it would be 1:38. The part that gets me is 1st off that Marlin now owns H&R, 2nd they specifically mention the Hornady leverevolution ammo on the New Products page with the 444 Marlin rifle and last time I checked the Hornady Leverevolution box says "For use in 1:20 twist rifles only". Boy am I dissapointed!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** January 10, 2007, 09:36:25 AM »

Another person checked and got the same info, was hoping it was just misinformation again, but it sure doesn't look like it if they took the time to confirm it. Makes me real hesitant to buy one considering it may also have the same overbore problem of the 44mag. $:-\$ Dunno what their reasoning behind the 1:38" twist is, but is sure doesn't make any sense to me.

Thanks,

Tim

MSP Ret · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2007, 09:56:17 AM »

that 1:38 twist is closer to a RB ML rifle twist than a high speed rifle barrel with heavy bullets, you are so right, what are they thinking?...<><....

trotterlg · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2007, 01:37:01 PM »

They most likely are thinking they have some .44 barrels with a slow twist and are chambering them in something they think will sell them, remember the bottom line is everything. Larry

Fred M · « **Reply #4 on:** January 11, 2007, 04:22:31 AM »

The overbore barrels have puzzled me for some time and most of the smaller bores I have measured they were all bigger at the muzzle then at the breech, some as much as 1-1/2 thou.

This I could see because they way H&R makes their barrels and not stress relieving.
But three to four thou are another story. I also had a hunch that they tried to reverse the process by drilling, reaming and button rifling after the barrel was contoured like Krieger does but alas they did not know how to drill a straight hole.

Also you can't compare a Krieger barrel with an H&R. Their barrels are stress relieved twice and also cryogenic treated, cut rifled if you wish and lapped to the closest tolerance with a slight choke at the muzzle.

Of course these barrels cost twice as much as a Handi when finished and installed.
For a mass produced competitive barrel the Ruger hammer forged barrels are hard to beat, and their in house knowledge supported by a metallurgical professor they are getting even better.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 11, 2007, 04:57:04 AM »

Quote

Some things in Life just don't make sense..

Last year...when I talked with some folks at Marlin..I was told a different story...and was really pumped about the prospects of having a 24" Ballard rifled Handi...So...I called NEF this morning too...just to confirm this...and was told the same thing as you...I think they are stupid...or afraid to compete with the Lever guns....or both... One of these days..these folks will get their heads out of the sand..and start responding to what the majority of folks want...It seems to be going from bad to worse with their design team...Sloppy chambers with their long throats & over sized bores...and now... not to give the Ballard rifling and better twist with the longer barrels...I wonder what idiot sold them this bill of goods there...What a joke.....

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #6 on:** January 11, 2007, 06:23:35 AM »

Mac.
John Krieger owns the company, he is the inovative creator of all sorts of propriatory techniques. He listens to the shooters of what they want and makes what they want and makes sure that what ever they get is of the highest quality. He will replace any barrel that is send back for not performing whether that is fact or not.

Well, H&R is run by some people that work for a wage and get dictated of what and how by a group of shareholders who are only interested in their pound of flesh every month. How long can they carry on like that? It is really too bad. I am not a handiholic but I do like the platform and know what can be done with it.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 11, 2007, 07:00:00 AM »

I've owned a few Krieger barrels before...all on my Weatherby's...They are some of the top of the line barrels for the money..that's 4-sure...But... this decision to do this with the 444 is pure stupidity from this consumers point of view.....Since Marlin is doing the barrels for them...well...maybe they aren't ?..Maybe NEF is doing them in house...and utilizing older equipment that Marlin used to use for their 444's before switching over to the Ballard rifling...Anyway you look at it..they are taking steps backwards...not forward..Too bad...I thought they might finally be getting their act together there..Anyway...as it stands..I'm totally disgusted with this pervasive attitude of their upper management to downgrade and downsize the Handi's..when it would be so easy for them to do more and offer more....for so little a cost..To me...it just shows they really don't care or listen...so I'm really starting to wonder.....Why should I

Mac

MSP Ret · « **Reply #8 on:** January 11, 2007, 07:24:41 AM »

Now this is getting very serious guys, when even Mac, one of the biggest defenders of H&R/NEF on this forum begins to get discouraged in the company and it's apparent foolish decisions and lack of any seeming intelligence in decision making, we have a problem. Much thanks to the CS people, as usual they have been keeping the company's reputation intact....<><....

OK H&R/Marlin management, tell me about the overbored .44's and why they are STILL that way...here is a very SIMPLE problem you refuse to address or even acknowledge. That you continue to market and sell these improperly bored guns knowing of the problem smacks of malfeasance to me.....

And oh yes, I hope you at ther company have a happy and profitable new year. I will continue to buy some of your products, just not any .44's....<><....

EVOC ONE · « **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2007, 08:03:54 AM »

Powerful words here, guys. But not without good reason. I have to admit, three of my last four centerfire rifles have been bolt actions. I do have a NEF/H&R in just about every caliber I want/need, excluding some limited run calibers. But i could just as well used the money I spent for the bolt actions on Handi's and Ultra's that I don't have, but wouldn't mind having.

I still enjoy shooting, owning and tinkering with them, but I'm tiring of the inconsistentcy in manufacturing and seemingly senseless decision making from the front office. i.e: the 7.62X39 debacle; overbored .44 Magnum; the policy regarding additional barrels on models made prior to 1999, even duplicate barrels!; The supposed twist rate on the .444; The issues regarding firing surplus ammo; as well as issues already spoken of in this thread.

The exception is CS. Those folks have stood behind the product 110%. Kinda makes you wonder if the front office knows just how much positive PR work CS does for the company.

I will continue to look for rifles in the calibers I do not have and will keep an eager eye out for the new models each year. But I will also continue to build on my bolt action battery.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 11, 2007, 08:41:48 AM »

Quote from: EVOC ONE on January 11, 2007, 08:03:54 AM

Powerful words here, guys. But not without good reason. I have to admit, three of my last four centerfire rifles have been bolt actions. I do have a NEF/H&R in just about every caliber I want/need, excluding some limited run calibers. But i could just as well used the money I spent for the bolt actions on Handi's and Ultra's that I don't have, but wouldn't mind having.

I still enjoy shooting, owning and tinkering with them, but I'm tiring of the inconsistentcy in manufacturing and seemingly senseless decision making from the front office. i.e: the 7.62X39 debacle; overbored .44 Magnum; the policy regarding additional barrels on models made prior to 1999, even duplicate barrels!; The supposed twist rate on the .444; The issues regarding firing surplus ammo; as well as issues already spoken of in this thread.

The exception is CS. Those folks have stood behind the product 110%. Kinda makes you wonder if the front office knows just how much positive PR work CS does for the company.

I will continue to look for rifles in the calibers I do not have and will keep an eager eye out for the new models each year. But I will also continue to build on my bolt action battery.

They know how much positive the C/S staff has done for them...make no mistake about that...they have been told on numerous occasions...If not for the fact of just how good a job all of those dedicated folks there have done in that department..or those others there who truly care about us..and their products..I do believe they would have sold off the company long ago...This is my personal view of course...

I have been one of their stronger supporters...while I may not have invested as much as other have here..building up sizable collections of Handi's..I have owned a boat load of them,and have encouraged others to purchase them...and done my best to help folks shoot them better....I will say this...here and now...No Longer...I won't financially support a company that just gives lip service to it's customers...I find it totally ludicrous that they know what the vast majority of Handi-holics want...but still refuse to make those minor changes to accommodate those wishes...I won't waste my time or effort in trying any longer...because it is falling on old deaf tired ears of those who could care less about us..I too will always look and see if they do something better...not just different...and I hope they go ahead with some interesting ideas that have been presented to them by their own people that I have been told was possible...maybe then..I won't feel as I do now...

There are other alternatives for those of us who can afford them..(rechambering..reboring..barrel stubbing..)..but I feel for those that can't afford the alternatives...a major disservice is being done...There are other rifle platforms available at competitive prices...It might be time for me to start investigating in them..

Mac

IC Cowboy · « **Reply #11 on:** January 11, 2007, 08:57:18 AM »

Mac, I also had spoken to folks at H&R/Marlin well over a year ago when I was patiently awaiting a 45-70 BC because of it being a legal primitive weapon here in MS, and the wait was long from Oct.-mid Jan. I suggested then that they should introduce a 24" 444 Marlin barrel with the new 1:20 twist and had high hopes of at least the twist being 1:20, well so much for that!

The part that really gets me is that on H&R's home page where the "New 444 Marlin rifle " is explained they mention the Hornady Leverevolution ammo to increase its effectiveness.

Yet, the folks at Hornady who make the ammo say of course it won't hurt to shoot it in the 1:38 barrel but the bullet wont' stabilize in that barrel,and will wobble, therefore it is recommended and will only perform accurately in the 1:20.

I spoke with Hornady on this issue also, very nice and professional folks!

I guess I will for sure take a new 444 Handi Rifle off my want list!

handirifle · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2007, 10:59:47 AM »

Mac
Interesting post on your part. you've gotten to where I was a year or so ago. When I got my 280 barrel, that scattered bullets all over the target and hit the primers off center, that was enough for me.

It's pure sloppiness for a barrel to be drilled off center, or at least the lug mounted off position. I traded them all off, some not even fired. I do miss the simplicity of the handi, and don't want to go off badmouthing them. Like you said, the CS people are like salmon swimming upstream!

What does NOT make sense to me, is Marlin OWNS NEF so how hard can it be to make the same type of barrels?

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #13 on:** January 11, 2007, 01:49:00 PM »

Another thing which comes to mind is that the barrels are supposedly made by Green Mountain. I would think that GM would want to head off any bad publicity. Perhaps we should contact them about this problem?
-WH-

myarmor · « **Reply #14 on:** January 11, 2007, 02:33:03 PM »

I am very let down to say the least. I among many were looking forward to a 444 Barrel. But was skeptical what the twist and bore diameter would turn out.
Take my name off the list as well

Mac, I understand your disgust. You have put yourself out, way more than most people know, trying to help inform the company on what Handi owners want and are clamoring for.
nomosendero and I were talking -while briefly- just the other day about how messed up things were over at NEF and the bad decisions being made.
I for one, will end up going the custom route to get exactly what I want. It may cost a little more, but there are people/friends out there that are willing to put a little more time into these little "humble" rifles. PrecisionRW is doing some very promising stuff, and I have been reading more into what they are doing. I am happy to see this

Not even mentioning Wayne's extended work.
It gives us some much needed options.
It's too bad Mrs Linch I believe...(? sorry if this is wrong. It's been awhile sence her name came up

)... wasn't in any position to help, with her health and all. She was a glimmer of hope thats for sure.

-Aaron

Pharmboy · « **Reply #15 on:** January 11, 2007, 02:46:59 PM »

Hey guys, you're scaring me. I am hot and heavy into this handi thing. I have a feeling you guys are foreshadowing something bad. Do ya think we should get rid of the handi's and go with the TC's or what?

Jerry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** January 11, 2007, 02:52:18 PM »

Bite your tongue!!! I'm very happy with the 27 Handis/Ultras I have, it's just that H&R NEF is shooting themselves in the foot with some of the decisions they've make on new firearm offerings and product QC. $:-\$

Tim

Pharmboy · « **Reply #17 on:** January 11, 2007, 03:12:10 PM »

Thanks Quick,
I needed that!

Jerry

hellacatcher · « **Reply #18 on:** January 11, 2007, 03:28:15 PM »

Mac I can't belive you said that.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #19 on:** January 11, 2007, 03:54:56 PM »

Could someone get this thread to someone at H&R/Marlin that cares or has any interest in the company? Or does anyone over there in a position to make a difference exist? I have some fine Handi's but am very worried for the future, I thought it was supposed to get better, does this look like better?....<><....

JPH45 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 11, 2007, 05:27:34 PM »

Quote

...No Longer...I won't financially support a company that just gives lip service to it's customers...I find it totally ludicrous that they know what the vast majority of Handi-holics want...but still refuse to make those minor changes to accommodate those wishes...I won't waste my time or effort in trying any longer...because it is falling on old deaf tired ears of those who could care less about us..I too will always look and see if they do something better...not just different...and I hope they go ahead with some interesting ideas that have been presented to them by their own people that I have been told was possible...maybe then..I won't feel as I do now... There are other alternatives for those of us who can afford them..(rechambering..reboring..barrel stubbing..)..but I feel for those that can't afford the alternatives...a major disservice is being done...There are other rifle platforms available at competitive prices...It might be time for me to start investigating in them..

Mac

Now you understand why I would not send my 38-55 back to them. With all the stories of their inability to get it right, sometimes even being given 3 chances to do so, the 38-55, folllowed by the weakening of the mainspring on the 357 Max was simply more than I was willing to put up with. If they can't get it right the first time, to hell with them. Kudo's to you Mac for finally seeing the light

nomosendero · « **Reply #21 on:** January 11, 2007, 05:51:01 PM »

Quote from: Winter Hawk on January 11, 2007, 01:49:00 PM

Another thing which comes to mind is that the barrels are supposedly made by Green Mountain. I would think that GM would want to head off any bad publicity. Perhaps we should contact them about this problem?
-WH-

I understand that NEF rifled these barrels themselves. They had 44 mags laying around & probably figured, what-to-heck, they want 1-20 twist
with good rifling, nevermind what they want, we'll sell them these. Have you ever gone to a gun store & you want something different than what they have, but they try to sell you what they have on the rack? Well, there you go, problem is I don't like that kind of crap & apparantly I
am not alone.

It appears to me that they believe that they can use any barrel length, rifling, etc. they want & Handiholics will buy them. I don't think so!!!!!!
Sales have been good & arrogance is creeping in, I am afraid. But things are good for us because we have good alternatives.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 11, 2007, 07:27:08 PM »

I want to make something perfectly clear for those that may take this opportunity to slam NEF...

In no way will you ever hear me say a bad remark against the countless employees of this company...especially those I have dealt with personally... I'll name them right here...Gordon...He is the head of Customer department of NEF...Jennifer...I am unsure of her exact title..but the next time you speak to her on the phone...congratulate her on her promotion...Mary...another customer support staff...Jon...the main gunsmith who works hard at making sure when you send your barrels back...they are done correctly...and his assistant...Bryan...In my honest opinion these are some of the best people I have ever had the pleasure of dealing with...Each and every one of them are dedicated to a thankless job...and have made dealing with this company bearable...I am quite sure anyone afraid of not having the absolute best...put your fears aside...If you have any problems with your NEF's...these folks will take care of you...

That being said...let me go further...out of all of the barrels I have owned...and all of the different rifles and shotguns I have owned of NEF and H&R...I have only had 2 that weren't satisfactory...just 2...and 1 of them was made before this company took over......The last one was replaced with a brand new barrel...I know of no other customer support team...that will bend over anyway they can...to make things right as those of NEF...My deepest appreciation and respect will always remain with these fine folks...I have dealt with all of the major rifle manufactures here in the USA...and a few custom manufactures who have never done as fine a job as these folks have done for me...

Further more... my disgust..and my anger is not directed at these fine folks who DO NOT make the decisions for the company...It lies with whatever management team is in place there...These folks are the ones who make these harebrained decisions...Not the people in the plant office or out on the floor...These fine folks in those positions have to work with what they are given...and it's getting less every day...The NEF division is being treated like the unwanted stepchild of Marlin...

Until the current Marlin management team gets their collective heads out of their backsides...I won't support them by promoting their product as I have in the past...You have to believe in the leadership there to make things right...I don't...They are not forward looking at all...I think they are more interested in making a profit off of us promoting them for free...than listening to those of their own who have tried to take them into the future...instead of making the same product of the past...Pity...

If at some point in the future they do decide to do things right...I'll be there...applauding their efforts...In the meantime...I still will search for ways of making what we have currently better...Better stocks comes to mind...finished and in a multitude of colors and styles...Different gunsmiths to do wonderful things to our rifles...Hopefully within the next couple of months...there will be more options for all here to utilize...Cross your fingers...

Mac

Dave Weiss · « **Reply #23 on:** January 12, 2007, 12:28:20 AM »

I think that the decision on the rate of twist for the 444 is irrelevant. A good business decision for H&R/NEF would have been to stick to a few basic calibers and a simple rifle. These are as Swampman calls them "Tools of a woodsman".
When I bought my Handi I considered it a 100yd gun, I wasn't expecting cloverleafs, but much to my surprise, that's what I got. I still consider it a 100yd gun. If I'd wanted more I'd have spent more (you get what you pay for).
I've seen pics of a lot of nice rifles here, are we putting a $50 saddle on a $10 horse or making a silk purse from a sow's ear?
I believe these guns are everything that they are advertised to be, mine lives behind the kitchen door and I trust it.

>>>===> Dave

nomosendero · « **Reply #24 on:** January 12, 2007, 01:50:00 AM »

BTW, my post was in reference to the attitude of the folks at the top, not the employees in the plant, just in case anyone misunderstood that. But the top management is steering this ship.

myarmor · « **Reply #25 on:** January 12, 2007, 02:07:28 AM »

Quote from: Mac11700 on January 11, 2007, 07:27:08 PM

I want to make something perfectly clear for those that may take this opportunity to slam NEF...

In no way will you ever hear me say a bad remark against the countless employees of this company...especially those I have dealt with personally... I'll name them right here...Gordon...He is the head of Customer department of NEF...Jennifer...I am unsure of her exact title..but the next time you speak to her on the phone...congratulate her on her promotion...Mary...another customer support staff...Jon...the main gunsmith who works hard at making sure when you send your barrels back...they are done correctly...and his assistant...Bryan...In my honest opinion these are some of the best people I have ever had the pleasure of dealing with...Each and every one of them are dedicated to a thankless job...and have made dealing with this company bearable...I am quite sure anyone afraid of not having the absolute best...put your fears aside...If you have any problems with your NEF's...these folks will take care of you...........
Further more... my disgust..and my anger is not directed at these fine folks who DO NOT make the decisions for the company...It lies with whatever management team is in place there...These folks are the ones who make these harebrained decisions...Not the people in the plant office or out on the floor...These fine folks in those positions have to work with what they are given...and it's getting less every day...The NEF division is being treated like the unwanted stepchild of Marlin.........
Mac

I don't think many here are actually mad at their CS or any of the actual workers. They do what is expected of them, and sometimes more.
Decisions come from higher up in the chain, that is were the problem lies. No misunderstanding there.

lik2hunt · « **Reply #26 on:** January 12, 2007, 02:14:59 AM »

Ok......all together now..............say..........TAX WRITE-OFF.........................now say.............SAVAGE.......STEVENS............

MSP Ret · « **Reply #27 on:** January 12, 2007, 03:48:35 AM »

can't say those words yet buddy, H&R/NEF - H&R/NEF - H&R/NEF, I still like the ones I have, and those other places don't make single shots, but not happy over the situation either....<><....

northjdr · « **Reply #28 on:** January 12, 2007, 04:11:01 AM »

Quote

Could someone get this thread to someone at H&R/Marlin that cares or has any interest in the company?

If someone from H&R/Marlin is not actively monitoring this thread as if their job depended on it (the largest and most active NEF/H&R owners group in the world) then they they are missing out on a goldmine of information; information that many companies spend large amounts of money to obtain with surveys, focus groups etc. With this formun they have a wonderful test group and an innovative R&D department. Just look at all the experimenting and tweeking that people have done with their Handi's. Ever wonder why the company doesn't incorporate some of the the more basic tweeks? How expensive would it be for them to include an O-ring with each gun along with a short explaination that some of the guns shoot better with this in the forearm. Could it be that hard to get the tolerances a little tighter with the barrel lug or to design a latch that can handle a little dirt and oil. Do they think they are selling to a bunch of bumpkins and hayseeds?
Ok, having said all this, Mac, are you still going to show me what to do to shoot clovers with my 308?

northjdr · « **Reply #29 on:** January 12, 2007, 04:13:45 AM »

Could someone tell me why my whole statement appears as a quote even though I thought I was careful about only inserting the quote between the sympols?