The slam for not understanding energy figures is way off too. … a .35 has alot less energy then say a 270 does at 100 yards surely doesnt mean that a 270 is a better killer of deer at 100 yards because that is just bunk!.
As Redhawk1 pointed out, I was comparing the .35 Rem to the .35 Rem. Standard ammo to LE ammo. You’re the one that is way off…
Theres alot more to it then velocity at impact and bullet weight. Probably the biggest factors in a good killing round is bullet constuction. If one of those round nosed underpowered corelocks hits flesh it expands takes out vitals and has enough momentum to kee going inside of an animal and it will do it at 30 yards and it will still do it at 200.
Then what you are saying is that if a rifle could push that same bullet fast enough that it arrived at 300 yards with the same velocity (and therefore energy) that standard ammo delivers at 200 yards, the bullet would be effective? Ah, the concept of LE ammo explained.
If the couple inches of trajectory is the big bonus you guys shooting this fancy new ammo are raving about. Its surely no big deal to me. You sure didnt turn my .35 into a 257 weatherby and i shoot my gun enough to know where it hits at differernt ranges.
I didn’t mention trajectory as I hit targets at 300 yards and beyond quite easily with standard .30-30, .375 Win and .45-70 ammo. The key difference is the energy delivered to the target by the LE ammo.
People have been shooting deer and black bear out to 200 yards for years with the .35 and 3030 with corelocks and winchester and federal std ammo and im here to tell you that if an animal is hit in the vitals with any of it the animal is DEAD!! Corelocks do not bounce off of animals. At least not in michigan anyway. I get a real kick out of people who say they cant but truely believe there contenders in those calibers are some majic round that will flatten elephants. If you cant kill a deer with factory corelocks in a .35 youd best buy about 20 boxes of them and learn your gun because a box of that new hornady stuff sure isnt going to make the diffence between a hit or miss at any sane range a levergun is going to be use at. At least not by a rifleman.
Ah, the crux of the problem is what you believe is a “sane range a levergun”. My post was in response to one essentially contending that 150 yards was the maximum “sane range”. You seem to be contending that 200 yards might be the maximum, but argue that the trajectory is not the limiting factor. Given identical bullets, what is left? Velocity, which determines retained Energy.
Frankly, I agree that bullet construction plays a large and very important part in terminal ballistics. The bullet needs to be matched to the terminal velocity. For comparison purposes, however, we will assume identical bullets of a design that is adequate at all velocities being compared. I’m not a big fan of the LE bullets, but then I’m not a fan of Core-Lokt or InterLock or Game King or any number of other bullets, either.
So, for comparison purposes, here’s some stuff I posted in another thread regarding the .30-30 and .308 Marlin LE ammo.:
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200 yards:
793fpe = Hornady 170g factory load .30-30
832fpe = Hornady 150g factory load .30-30
1120fpe = Speer 150g 2400fps handload .30-30
1121fpe = Speer 170g 2200fps handload .30-30
1410fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .30-30
1552fpe = Speer 170g 2550fps handload for .308 Marlin
1761fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .308 Marlin
Of course, once we have zeroed for MPBR for a 6" diameter target we can look at where the bullet is down 10" - a combination I frequently use when assessing the useful range of a firearm (in addition to other factors):
240yds/696fpe = Hornady 170g factory load .30-30
255yds/683fpe = Hornady 150g factory load .30-30
260yds/962fpe = Speer 170g 2200fps handload .30-30
275yds/904fpe = Speer 150g 2400fps handload .30-30
290yds/1179fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .30-30
300yds/1212fpe = Speer 170g 2550fps handload for .308 Marlin
320yds/1403fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .308 Marlin
One last comparison, using the 1403fpe delivered by the .308 ME at 320 yards as the basis:
60yds/1387fpe = Hornady 170g factory load .30-30
70yds/1386fpe = Hornady 150g factory load .30-30
110yds/1403fpe = Speer 170g 2200fps handload .30-30
120yds/1400fpe = Speer 150g 2400fps handload .30-30
200yds/1410fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .30-30
240yds/1408fpe = Speer 170g 2550fps handload for .308 Marlin
320yds/1403fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .308 Marlin
Kinetic energy is a valid way of comparing various loads but is not a perfect method. It is best used when comparing projectiles of similar construction and diameter and weight.
In this case I compared 150 and 170g cup-and-core bullets of the same diameter. The twist rates in the rifles may be different but the loads are close enough for a reasonably valid comparison. People have long considered the .30-30 to be a short range tool because of the relatively low energy it delivers downrange. Let’s compare apples to apples – my .30-30 load with the 170g Speer and the same bullet in a .308 Marlin at an estimated 2550fps. The .308 Marlin delivers the same energy (1408fpe) at 240 yards that the .30-30 does at 110 yards (1403fpe).
If Kinetic Energy has nothing to do with killing, then I propose I shoot my game while you throw identical bullets at them. If you prefer you can use a rifled blowgun to stabilize the bullet and make sure it lands point first. We’ll see who gets more one shot kills, and if you can even get a kill. Unless you live in a very strange and different universe where the laws of physics are radically different, energy counts for a great deal. In this universe, energy is conserved (the First Law of Thermodynamics). Translated, that means that if no energy is transferred from object ‘A’ (the bullet) to object ‘B’ (the game animal), no change occurs to object ‘B’. No change, as in no change whatsoever – no imparted momentum at any level, no damage of any kind, nothing. As in no injury or death.
There is nothing about a good Marlin that inherently limits its usefulness to 100 yards, 150 yards or even 200 yards. I use my .30-30 to shoot clay pigeons at 200 yards on a regular basis and often back off to 300 yards. Granted, I often miss, but I often hit as well and overall group size is better at 300 yards than many people achieve at 100 yards with other firearms. My .45-70 will hold 5” a 300 yards and my Marlin in .375 Win has shot several 2” groups at 200 yards.
What other people think of leverguns is of little concern to me, but the sales of Hornady’s LE ammo indicates a great many people are either looking to extend the range of their leverguns with a flatter trajectory or are want to deliver more energy downrange.
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It seems you don’t think 300 yards is a “sane range a levergun”, yet I would contend that for a “rifleman” who knows his rifle 300 yards with a good Marlin is no big deal.
