Is it the ammo or the gun?

[Camel 23]

Actually on second thought I'd take a 220 swift because it has more energy. 

[Lloyd Smale]

I would say in that case your talking bullet momentum not energy and were talking again about two totaly differnt calibers and bullet designs and if anything your backing my argument using a 458. I heavy round nosed bullet going slow. Does that sound familar? Now in the same circumstance on the same buffalo would you rather have that 500 solidor soft point  round nose at 2000 fps or a 350 grain pointed spitzer at 2600 fps. I know what i would take especially if i had to know that if that buffalo go angry and i absolultly need to put a bullet in a vital the first time. We can argue till were blue in the face but the bottom line is that we both like the .35. Personaly i think its one of the best whitetail rifles ever made and agian we can argue till were blue in the face but ive just seen to many deer (and i mean lots over the years) killed by those antique corelock round nosed bullets and ive never seen them fail in any way when put in the animal correctly to see where some high tech answer to an unasked question was ever needed. I guess ive allways had enough guns where i didnt feel the need to soup one up to do a job it wasnt intended to do. If i want a faster .35 rem ill just grab my little 356 winchester and shooting round nosed corelocks again it will shoot flatter and hit harder then any load youll put in a .35. But the bottom line is it has never showed me where  that extra made it kill any better. In my younger days I used to think i was really doing something when id take a 06 and try to make it into a 300 mag or a 6mm and make it into a 240 weath. I was allways trying to make a gun into something it wasnt designed for and they usually failed miserably at it but i was to dumb to know. If you truely want a 300 yard lever gun why not buy a browing a sako or a winchester in 243 or 308 or even 358 for that matter and do it right. A majic box of ammo isnt going to transform one gun into another. Millions of marlins and winchesters have been sold because of what they are. About the sweetest 100 yard deer and black bear wacker made. I guess there good enough for me in that role. making one into a beanfield rifle is about like making my grandma dance the pole at the strip joint. IT JUST AINT RIGHT!   

…Energy doesnt kill anything. Putting a hole threw something vital does and it doesnt take much of a hole!! …

So you would go hunting Cape Buffalo with a .45 ACP and a 230g FMJ rather than a .458 Win and a Hornady 500g FMJ because the hole size is all that matters?

[markc]

Didn't mean to get an argument started.  I was just wondering if the new ammo might be the problem.   I sighted it in short distance.  This 35 Rem is my woods hunting gun.  I have a synthetic 700 in 30-06 for the longer shots.   The 06 accounted for both deer I shot this season in Central Tx, and the 35 accountedfor the feral hogs and bobcat in the woods where the longest shot was around 40yds.   I tried the Hornady ammo so I could have one round for both the Marlin carbine and the TC contender.   It really wasn't an attempt to make the 35 into a long range gun.  Thanks for the replies.

[Coyote Hunter]

I would say in that case your talking bullet momentum not energy and were talking again about two totaly differnt calibers and bullet designs…

No, I’m talking about energy:

 414fpe = 230g .45ACP @ 900fps
5132fpe = 500g .458 Win @ 2150fps

I was allways trying to make a gun into something it wasnt designed for and they usually failed miserably at it but i was to dumb to know.

People that make the “wasnt designed for” argument should be ready to forfeit all their Mauser bolt guns chambered for cartridges that use higher pressures to deliver flatter trajectories of more energy than the 7x57mm. Figure about 2300fpe for top energy.  Probably out to dump their scopes and go with iron, too.

If you truely want a 300 yard lever gun why not buy a browing a sako or a winchester in 243 or 308 or even 358 for that matter and do it right. A majic box of ammo isnt going to transform one gun into another.

Umm, because I prefer Marlins?  Because I think the Browning BLR is basically an ugly bolt gun with a lever attached, “sako” is a four letter word for “damn the customers, we don’t want the world to know there is a safety problem”  or that I don’t care for Winchesters and they aren’t making them any more anyway?

Millions of marlins and winchesters have been sold because of what they are. About the sweetest 100 yard deer and black bear wacker made.

Someone on another thread was adamant that the .30-30 wasn’t adequate for bears, so you might get some disagreement there.  But why the 100 yard limit?  Trajectory?  No, my Marlin .30-30 will shoot 170g bullets 200 yards with no more than a 3” bullet rise. Accuracy?  No, I use it to shoot clay pigeons at greater ranges.  Bullet weight?  No, nothing wrong with a 170g.  Diameter?  Absolutely not – a .30” bullet is adequate for most game.  Bullet design?  No. That leaves, um, er, ah…energy.

I guess there good enough for me in that role. making one into a beanfield rifle is about like making my grandma dance the pole at the strip joint. IT JUST AINT RIGHT!   

Well, I agree about your grandmother.  I don’t want to make my leverguns into beanfield rifles, but it would be nice to know that when the woods open up and I’m looking at a mule deer or elk 200 or 250 yards away that the .30 lever in my hands is more than adequate. If the gun is capable at 300 yards or more that’s just gravy.

[Lloyd Smale]

now if i shoot a 458 into the side of a deer and the bullet exits into the dirt on the far side and i shoot one with a 45acp with a 200 grain cast swc youve basically put a 45 cal hole through the deer with both and i dont see where you gained anything with all the energy the 458 produces other then maybe dig a bigger hole on the far side. . Unless your killing that dirt bank i dont see a benifit. As far as the mauser argument goes the 757 at those levels will do alot of killing and it would be fine by me if you took all the bolts i own as i havent hunted with one in 15 years. I keep them mostly for sedimental reasons. The man who said the 3030 wasnt enough for black bear should shove his keyboard aside and go shoot a few animals. I do agree with the range limits you put on 3030s too. There more then capable of 200 yard deer kills. My limiting factor is more the sights then the cartidge as i refuse to put a scope on a lever gun. to me its as ugly as one on a handgun and even with a reciever sight im about all done at 200 yards. So what do i do? Buy faster ammo and a scope. NOPE! I do a little thing called hunting. It will usually get me withing 200 yards and if it doesnt i can just walk away and wait till anohter day. If I didnt have tha attitude i guess id be hauling around a 300 mag with a 12 power scope. But it enjoy the hunt as much as the shot and the 3030 or .35 rem even with corelocks are all the gun i need to do it.

[Coyote Hunter]

now if i shoot a 458 into the side of a deer and the bullet exits into the dirt on the far side and i shoot one with a 45acp with a 200 grain cast swc youve basically put a 45 cal hole through the deer with both and i dont see where you gained anything with all the energy the 458 produces other then maybe dig a bigger hole on the far side. . Unless your killing that dirt bank i dont see a benifit.

Lloyd -

You make the assumption that a the two loads will transfer the same amount of energy to the target as they pass through.  This, of course, doesn't hold with experience.  Indeed, the loads with lower velocity and energy often penetrate more water jugs.  Let me reitierate my example of two .45-70 loads:

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Here’s another one for you, apples to apples, both loads for my Marlin .45-70…

 907fpe = .45-70, 300g @ 1167fps
3363fpe = .45-70, 300g @ 2247fps

If your theory that energy is meaningless is correct, these loads should be able to demonstrate that.  OK, I shoot both loads into a line of water jugs sitting on a plywood platform and what happens? 

The first load penetrates 11 jugs and buries itself in the dirt berm behind the jugs.  Great penetration but not much damage to the jugs – the lead jug gets blown up but the others just have little holes in and out, all leaking water,.  A fluke?  Nope, repeated tests show the same thing.

The second load doesn’t penetrate all 11 jugs, but it blows about five of them up and comes to rest in the sixth which is split top to bottom.  Moreover, where the first jug was sitting there is a hole the size of the jug in the 5/16” thick plywood and the plastic sawhorse the plywood was sitting on is broken.  A fluke?  Nope, the .45-70 has done it twice.  (As has the .375 Win with a full-power 2663fpe load.)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Here are the results of several water jug tests. The "+" sign indicated the bullet exited the last jug and buried itself in the dirt berm:

11 jugs + = 907fpe/1167fps, 300g Hardcast FN  (.45-70)
11 jugs + = 935fpe/1097fps, 350g Hardcast FN (.45-70)
 9 jugs + = 2681fpe/1554fps, 500g Speer African Grand Slam tungsten Solid (.45-70) (Didn't have any more jugs)
 9 jugs = 3353fpe/1812fps, 460g Hardcast FN (.45-70)
 8 jugs = 3582fpe/2147fps, 350g Speer FN (.45-70)
 7 jugs = 3841fpe/3100fpe, 180g Barnes MRX (.300 Win Mag)
 6 jugs = 3724fpe/2189fps, 350g North Fork (.45-70)
 6 jugs = 3363fpe/2247fps, 300g Speer UCHP (.45-70)
 5 jugs = 2429fpe/2230fps, 220g Hornady FN (.375 Win)
 4 jugs = 2536fpe/2390fps, 220g Sierra FN (.375 Win)

While the penetration champs were the 300g loads at about 1100fps, they did only minor damage, usually only blowing up the lead jugs.  Often we were able to shoot the same jugs several times.  All of the other jugs caused massive damage, including blowing up most or all of the jugs they passed through, blowing holes in the plywood under the lead jug, breaking the crossmember on the sawhorse and/or breaking the 1x4" board attached to the side of the plywood.

Some observations:

1.  While the 1100fps loads penetrated the most jugs (11+) they transferred less than 935fpe.  (They cannot transfer more than they start with and some energy was required for them to exit and bury themselves in the dirt.  Also, see #3 below.)

2.  The loads with more energy caused much greater damage.  With the exception of the 500g Speer AGS, all stopped inside a water jug.  This means that ALL of their energy resulting from their velocity was transferred elsewhere. (Unfortunately the Speer AGS is an anomoly because we ran out of jugs and only had 9 left when testing it.)

3.  Newton's Third Law (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) requires that the transferred energy will be evenly split between the bullet (expressed as heat and deformation, etc.) and the target (expressed as damage to the water jugs, meaning heat and deformation).

4.  The ability of a bullet to penetrate is not necessarily a good indicator of its ability to cause damage.  Indeed, the more a bullet penetrated the less damage it caused.  (The possible exception being the 500g Speer AGS - we do not know how many jugs it might have pentrated had we had more than 9 left to test with.) 

As far as the mauser argument goes the 757 at those levels will do alot of killing and it would be fine by me if you took all the bolts i own as i havent hunted with one in 15 years. I keep them mostly for sedimental reasons.
 

You are not the only one making that argument and I'd be willing to bet that the others never gave a thought as to what bolt guns were origianlly "intended to do" as exemplified by the 7x57 Mauser which has been with us for considerably longer than most bolt cartridges.

The man who said the 3030 wasnt enough for black bear should shove his keyboard aside and go shoot a few animals. I do agree with the range limits you put on 3030s too. There more then capable of 200 yard deer kills. My limiting factor is more the sights then the cartidge as I refuse to put a scope on a lever gun. to me its as ugly as one on a handgun and even with a reciever sight im about all done at 200 yards.

I agree about the guy who thought a .30-30 was inadequate for black bear.  But a Marlin without a scope is just naked which is why all mine have glass, as does my Super Redhawk .44 Mag. 

So what do i do? Buy faster ammo and a scope. NOPE! I do a little thing called hunting. It will usually get me withing 200 yards and if it doesnt i can just walk away and wait till another day. If I didnt have tha attitude i guess id be hauling around a 300 mag with a 12 power scope. But it enjoy the hunt as much as the shot and the 3030 or .35 rem even with corelocks are all the gun i need to do it.

OK, you knew this was coming.  Hunting usually gets me within 200 yards but on occasion there is just no getting closer and you have to live with what the good Lord gives you.  Lots of variables and only a few are controlled by the hunter.  Would love to have the time in the field you apparently have, but I'm lucky to get a week total to fill my deer and elk tags.  (Assuming I even get a deer tag, which is not always the case.)

While I prefer to hunt with my leverguns (the naked Browning B92 .44 Mag has done more elk and deer hunting than anything else I own except the 7mm Rem Mag), when the freezer is empty I tend to grab the bolt guns, uninspiring as they are.  A levergun with more energy and range, like the .308 Marlin, is a welcome thing.

[Lloyd Smale]

A deer is not a water jug. Ive killed most of the deer in my life with hardcast bullets. If you examine the wound channel of a deer shot with a hardcast out of a .45 colt with a 300 at 1100 ar 4570 with a 405 at 1600 or a 458 with a 500 at 1900 there will be virtually no difference. You can about eat up to the hole with anyone of them. Now switch out to a soft nosed bullet and there will be a big differnce. But then switching to a soft nosed bullet does nothing to energy figures Ive shot enough game with all three to know that the reaction when hit by anyone of them is the same. The typicaly run 50 yards and drop. Ill give you another senerio in which to see how much energy effects killing. Take and hang a 50lb oinion sack full of dirt off a target stand and shoot it with a 300 mag and you will see how little energy is actually there. Bullets kill by putting a hole in the vitals of an animal. Thats why cast bullets kill so well even at the low energy ratings they put out in a handgun. Many seasoned handgun hunters will tell you that a 44 mag with hard cast will about equal a 3006 in killing power and my experiences back that up. Why? because they have the ability to put a hole through the vitals. They dont expand and do alot of unessisary tissue damage. Damage that well might very well lead to a sligtly quicker kill but i doubt it as ive killed enough deer to know that if your waiting for one to bleed out your going to do alot of tracking. But put a hole through the heart or lungs even 44 caliber without alot of trauma and that animal isnt going more the 100 yards. You see i not only like to hunt my deer but also like to eat them!!. I guess were getting way off topic here and ill give this thing a rest. One thing ive learned over the years is never bash a guy for what he hunts with. As long as he knows how to use it. I wont bash you because you want to shoot your marlin at 300 yards because its your right to do it! I wont bash you for using scopes on your lever guns or handguns (while maybe if in a bad mood i will) I just quit using them because bow hunting spoiled me. The thrill of getting up close and actually hunting instead of shooting is what its about for me more then just killing. No i probably dont have more time then you to hunt. At least not for about 5 years till i retire but ive killed enough game where the quality of the hunt means more then limiting out on meat. Im not bashing anyone for that either. My father is a meat hunter through and through. Putting meat in the freezer is his no. 1 consern and he thinks im nuts for running around the woods with a handgun or a rifle with no scope. At least even he uses a lever gun. even though its one of those browning bolts with a lever on it in .308 and hes even got the nerve to put a 3x9 scope on it!!

[jgalar]

Getting back to the original question......

Markc both are the problem. It sounds like the lead is insufficient in your gun for using the Hornady ammo. If the bullet is sticking into the rifling the cartridge is probably going to create excessive pressure this would cause your hard to eject problem. You could  either quit using the ammo or have a gunsmith work over your gun.

I'll stay out of the p!ss!ng contest.

[Mac11700]

Sounds to me like the Hornady ammo is somehow too long, and the bullet is being seated into the lands. It is also then possible that problem has caused the extractor to break or bend from the force needed to extract the round.

In a fired round, the extra resistance from the bullet being in the lands may be enough to create an excess pressure situation. I would have the gunsmith check the freebore and land and groove diameter on your rifle, as well as headspace.

It may be possible the Hornandy load and your gun are just not compatible.

And the magazine follower needs the new ones available for shooting this ammo from Marlin...Call Marlin and ask them...

Mac

[Lloyd Smale]

no but would you rather hunt them with a .220 swift or a 4570 based on ft lbs of energy.quote author=Coyote Hunter link=topic=108565.msg1098320889#msg1098320889 date=1168734343]

…Energy doesnt kill anything. Putting a hole threw something vital does and it doesnt take much of a hole!! …

So you would go hunting Cape Buffalo with a .45 ACP and a 230g FMJ rather than a .458 Win and a Hornady 500g FMJ because the hole size is all that matters?



[/quote]

[Coyote Hunter]

Lloyd -


No, water jugs are not deer or elk.  But they do have advantages - they are cheap and easy to prepare, they provide a consistent medium, and they provide highly repeatable results.  The results may be different than in flesh and bone but the results are not without value, especially when comparing the relative results obtained with different bullets.  Bullts that hold up well in water can be expected to hold up better in animals than bullets that fall apart in the water.

Its clear we're never going to agree on the importance of energy but I think we both agree that placement makes a huge difference.  In general I prefer expanding bullets because of the damage they do outside bullet path (like destroying the lungs rather than just putting a hole in them), and with proper placement you lose very little meat.  No, switching to expanded bullets does not increase the energy, but when coupled with higher velocity (more available energy) does increase the amount of energy transferred per unit of time.  In other words, it changes the mechanics of the energy transfer significantly.

We also agree that the quality of the hunt is important.  I figure a successful hunt is one in which everyone comes home healthy and that's my top priority.  Enjoying the hunt comes next.  Meat in the freezer is nice and some years its more important than others, but its more important than those two. 

[Lloyd Smale]

we do alot of penetration testing. Even did a little for some bullet manufactures. Water does work but weve found that to really put a bullet through what it will go through in an animal is a tough deal. WHat weve settled on is shooting though the shoulder bone of the game animal we intend to use the bullet for placed in front of our penetration box that is filled with wet news print. What it will show you that water cant is what happens to a bullet that hits bone. Alot of bullet will not hold together and alot of even hard cast bullets will deflect and dive out of the box. weve even gone so far as to hang a piece of leather in front of the bone to simulate hide. It will even make a differnce. Another gain over water jugs is the fact that you can actually see a wound channel and thats kind of where some of my thoughts on jacketed bullets and high velocitys come from. They make wicked holes in the wet paper (IF) they get through the bone (and a surprising number of them dont) But when your looking at putting a bullet say through a black bear from the side. I typical high velocity round will penetrate say 12 inches after hitting a shoulder bone and a pistol caliber flat point cast bullet going slower will usually blow through. If you look at the wound channel created by both you will see that the longer channel of the cast bullet more then makes up for the dramatic damage done by the jacketed bullet and in alot of cases the cast bullet has not only broke the shoulder but also has taken out the off side shoulder. This will allways be the eternal argument. Dramatic expansion vs penetration. Thats kind of why ive allways like corelocks in the 3030 and 35. It is about the only case where a bullet is actually designed for the cartride its in and usually gives a real good ballance of penetration and expansion at just about any reasonable range. I guess to me if hornady wanted to invent something usefull why not a 180 grain bullet that would open up on deer well and still hold together if placed into an elks shoulder. I think ive tracked more deer shot by 06s and 180s that had a 30 cal hole through them then ive had to track wounded by bows. Nothing makes me shake my head more then a whitetail hunter out there with nos partitions, barnes x, speer grandslams ect. Now im really getting off topic.

[Coyote Hunter]

… Nothing makes me shake my head more then a whitetail hunter out there with nos partitions, barnes x, speer grandslams ect. Now im really getting off topic.

The only Grand Slam I have ever recovered was from under the far-side hair on a 5x5 bull elk.  It had broken both shoulder joints.  From coyotes up I’ve never had to track an animal I shot with a GS.  My buddy did have a cow elk go over 100 yards after shooting it in the neck with a GS but I don’t think the bullet selection was the problem.  Maybe if I had more experience with them I would have a different opinion of the Grand Slams - I only hunted antelope, deer and elk with them for about 23 years…

Have never hunted whitetail, but I can tell you Trophy Bonded and North Fork work very well for mulies and elk.  Since we hunt them at the same time it makes sence to use a bullet that will work well for either.  The older Barnes X bullets didn’t seem to be reliable in the expansion department, at least not on antelope or coyotes, and I quit loading them in favor of the TSX and MRX, neither of which I’ve had an opportunity to use.

The .30-30 gets Speer Hot-Cor FN’s and Nosler Partitions – can’t seem to get a desire to load TSX FN’’s in a tube mag…  Would use Trophy Bonded, Norht Fork or A-Frames in a heartbeat if they were available.

The .308 Win, gets loaded with a 165g North Fork at an average of 2665fps - shades of the .307 Marlin!

The .45-70 gets North Fork.  Have only taken one elk with the combo but it never moved – unless you count falling over sideways.

[Lloyd Smale]

dont get that post wrong. Ive got nothing against grandslams. Its probably my most used premium  bullets. IVe just seen to many small whitetail take hits from 180 grain 06s and run off because bullets were a little to stoutly constructed. Ive just never seen where standard bullets werent good enough to take whitetail and antelope. I think when you get into elk sized game with an 2506 270 280 and 06s the premiums definately have there place and by run off after hit im not insinuatating that it didnt kill them just that ive spent a few hours tracking them.