now if i shoot a 458 into the side of a deer and the bullet exits into the dirt on the far side and i shoot one with a 45acp with a 200 grain cast swc youve basically put a 45 cal hole through the deer with both and i dont see where you gained anything with all the energy the 458 produces other then maybe dig a bigger hole on the far side. . Unless your killing that dirt bank i dont see a benifit.
Lloyd -
You make the assumption that a the two loads will transfer the same amount of energy to the target as they pass through. This, of course, doesn't hold with experience. Indeed, the loads with lower velocity and energy often penetrate more water jugs. Let me reitierate my example of two .45-70 loads:
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Here’s another one for you, apples to apples, both loads for my Marlin .45-70…
907fpe = .45-70, 300g @ 1167fps
3363fpe = .45-70, 300g @ 2247fps
If your theory that energy is meaningless is correct, these loads should be able to demonstrate that. OK, I shoot both loads into a line of water jugs sitting on a plywood platform and what happens?
The first load penetrates 11 jugs and buries itself in the dirt berm behind the jugs. Great penetration but not much damage to the jugs – the lead jug gets blown up but the others just have little holes in and out, all leaking water,. A fluke? Nope, repeated tests show the same thing.
The second load doesn’t penetrate all 11 jugs, but it blows about five of them up and comes to rest in the sixth which is split top to bottom. Moreover, where the first jug was sitting there is a hole the size of the jug in the 5/16” thick plywood and the plastic sawhorse the plywood was sitting on is broken. A fluke? Nope, the .45-70 has done it twice. (As has the .375 Win with a full-power 2663fpe load.)
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Here are the results of several water jug tests. The "+" sign indicated the bullet exited the last jug and buried itself in the dirt berm:
11 jugs + = 907fpe/1167fps, 300g Hardcast FN (.45-70)
11 jugs + = 935fpe/1097fps, 350g Hardcast FN (.45-70)
9 jugs + = 2681fpe/1554fps, 500g Speer African Grand Slam tungsten Solid (.45-70) (Didn't have any more jugs)
9 jugs = 3353fpe/1812fps, 460g Hardcast FN (.45-70)
8 jugs = 3582fpe/2147fps, 350g Speer FN (.45-70)
7 jugs = 3841fpe/3100fpe, 180g Barnes MRX (.300 Win Mag)
6 jugs = 3724fpe/2189fps, 350g North Fork (.45-70)
6 jugs = 3363fpe/2247fps, 300g Speer UCHP (.45-70)
5 jugs = 2429fpe/2230fps, 220g Hornady FN (.375 Win)
4 jugs = 2536fpe/2390fps, 220g Sierra FN (.375 Win)
While the penetration champs were the 300g loads at about 1100fps, they did only minor damage, usually only blowing up the lead jugs. Often we were able to shoot the same jugs several times. All of the other jugs caused massive damage, including blowing up most or all of the jugs they passed through, blowing holes in the plywood under the lead jug, breaking the crossmember on the sawhorse and/or breaking the 1x4" board attached to the side of the plywood.
Some observations:
1. While the 1100fps loads penetrated the most jugs (11+) they transferred less than 935fpe. (They cannot transfer more than they start with and some energy was required for them to exit and bury themselves in the dirt. Also, see #3 below.)
2. The loads with more energy caused much greater damage. With the exception of the 500g Speer AGS, all stopped inside a water jug. This means that ALL of their energy resulting from their velocity was transferred elsewhere. (Unfortunately the Speer AGS is an anomoly because we ran out of jugs and only had 9 left when testing it.)
3. Newton's Third Law (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) requires that the transferred energy will be evenly split between the bullet (expressed as heat and deformation, etc.) and the target (expressed as damage to the water jugs, meaning heat and deformation).
4. The ability of a bullet to penetrate is not necessarily a good indicator of its ability to cause damage. Indeed, the more a bullet penetrated the less damage it caused. (The possible exception being the 500g Speer AGS - we do not know how many jugs it might have pentrated had we had more than 9 left to test with.)
As far as the mauser argument goes the 757 at those levels will do alot of killing and it would be fine by me if you took all the bolts i own as i havent hunted with one in 15 years. I keep them mostly for sedimental reasons.
You are not the only one making that argument and I'd be willing to bet that the others never gave a thought as to what bolt guns were origianlly "intended to do" as exemplified by the 7x57 Mauser which has been with us for considerably longer than most bolt cartridges.
The man who said the 3030 wasnt enough for black bear should shove his keyboard aside and go shoot a few animals. I do agree with the range limits you put on 3030s too. There more then capable of 200 yard deer kills. My limiting factor is more the sights then the cartidge as I refuse to put a scope on a lever gun. to me its as ugly as one on a handgun and even with a reciever sight im about all done at 200 yards.
I agree about the guy who thought a .30-30 was inadequate for black bear. But a Marlin without a scope is just naked which is why all mine have glass, as does my Super Redhawk .44 Mag.
So what do i do? Buy faster ammo and a scope. NOPE! I do a little thing called hunting. It will usually get me withing 200 yards and if it doesnt i can just walk away and wait till another day. If I didnt have tha attitude i guess id be hauling around a 300 mag with a 12 power scope. But it enjoy the hunt as much as the shot and the 3030 or .35 rem even with corelocks are all the gun i need to do it.
OK, you knew this was coming. Hunting usually gets me within 200 yards but on occasion there is just no getting closer and you have to live with what the good Lord gives you. Lots of variables and only a few are controlled by the hunter. Would love to have the time in the field you apparently have, but I'm lucky to get a week total to fill my deer and elk tags. (Assuming I even get a deer tag, which is not always the case.)
While I prefer to hunt with my leverguns (the naked Browning B92 .44 Mag has done more elk and deer hunting than anything else I own except the 7mm Rem Mag), when the freezer is empty I tend to grab the bolt guns, uninspiring as they are. A levergun with more energy and range, like the .308 Marlin, is a welcome thing.