Author Topic: 50 cal ban in Idaho proposed! (Read 8362 times)

nomosendero · « **Reply #30 on:** January 18, 2007, 02:28:52 PM »

Quote from: dukkillr on January 18, 2007, 05:33:45 AM

Quote from: nomosendero on January 18, 2007, 02:25:58 AM
I don't use a 50BMG for hunting & I don't own one. If I bought one, it would be for the range. To me it is a bench/target & special purpose weapon. I believe a 50BMG could be used responsably if the owner tries, but then it won't really do anything that a 300RUM would not do, so why lug a 40# rifle around. That being said, I KNOW the maximum cartridge idea will create BIG problems down the road.

I understand Nonya's concerns & shooting from the side of the road & the way he describes is a concern. The "situation" reminds me of what our founders said, our type of government/freedom can only occur with honorable men. This applies to all our rights in general, be it handguns & everything else. So, as we have more goofy morons without principle, we will all suffer, be it handguns or anything else. The problem is our politicians lack honor themselves, & will use such legislation as this to eventually take our hunting rights. It will be easy to decide that the 338Lapua, 300RUM & others are "sniper rounds" & the wacko's will need to save us. And a 6.5X20 is a "sniper" scope, later a 4.5X14, etc.

We will then have idiots trying to tell us what the maximum range will HAVE to be, & it won't be long range. Then the self proclaimed gurus will tell us we really don't need a 300WM because it is illegal to hunt with anyway, so turn them in now!

So yes, tools misapplied is a problem, but I will NEVER agree with getting the Legislative ball rolling, because the further the ball rolls, the bigger it will get.

As with other things, if hunters don't police themselves someone else will. And you won't like the results.

Goes right back to what I said about honorable Men by any logical measure. It eliminates the policeing yourself as it would not be needed & setting up a universal code could not work anyway.

SDS-GEN · « **Reply #31 on:** January 18, 2007, 03:27:40 PM »

Even if the law had passed this crap would still be going on. These guys are the type that if you told them they couldn't hunt with a 50BMG they would neck down the case to fit a 458 bullet, and when you outlaw that they would neck it down to 416. In a perverted way its kind of like necessity being the mother of invention. You can't legislate this immoral behavior without it eventually coming back on true sportsmen. Nomosendero said it best "honorable men" are needed in our ranks who will lead by example the next generation of hunters. These young hunters should be taught that just because you can make a shot doesn't me you should pull the trigger. There really isn't much you can do about it. I wonder if I saw it happen if it might be worth a call to the game warden, it could fall under wanton waste laws. Sooner or later this will probably end up on TV, some idiot injuring an elk from 900 yards out. Remember ten years ago when wardens started using stuffed deer to nail poachers, the laws against poaching haven't stopped the immoral behavior of poachers. Furthermore I can't believe that these guys get any "rush" from the kill. I shot a doe last Saturday, my heart was beating like mad and I had to choke back buck fever to make the 60 yard shot. If that feeling ever goes away I will stop hunting. I know I wouldn't get that thrill shooting at extreme distances.

handirifle · « **Reply #32 on:** January 18, 2007, 06:43:23 PM »

A link was posted about Field and Streams article on "hunting" with the 50 BMG.. those that oppose NEED to write them a letter. I did. This clown talks about how safe they are, making sure of the background, blah blah. He also mentions something about his Africa hunt with TWENTY SEVEN 1000 YARD MISSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's disgusting. He also describes an elk he shot at 1000, took three shots to hit him.

I asked F&S what he would have done if he'd shot a leg off. Could he EVEN FIND THE CLEARING the elk was standing it when he shot him, to start blood trailing?

Everyone has misses from time to time, but he's proven it's the norm with the Africa hunt. very disgusting.

I'm one of the most pro gun/hunting rights people there, and I favor a HUNTING BAN OF THE 50 bmg OR any CALIBER based on it. They need to learn to HUNT or stay out of the woods.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #33 on:** January 19, 2007, 01:39:11 AM »

Sounds like we have some allies of PETA and HCI here. One guy was even going as low as commenting on what these guys bodys look like.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #34 on:** January 19, 2007, 03:34:47 AM »

NONYA, I know you are a little hot about this subject, but someone being over weight does not automatically make him as a slob hunter or unethical person!
Also, in some States it is illegal to hunt from the road and from a vehicle, now that I agree with, so that would eliminate the road hunting. A 50 BMG shoot a .511 diameter bullet and the bullet is no more destructive than a .338 Win Mag. There is not a lot of hunting bullets made for the 50 BMG, when I was shooting the 50 BMG I only saw one bullet that was designed for hunting, the rest were either Military or Competition bullets. What are your game laws there, I thought most States did not allow FMJ bullets for hunting.

handirifle, I know of guys missing animals all the time with standard caliber rifles, the 50 BMG adds nothing to the point. Guys are wounding animals with standard cartridges all the time, it is not a problem that is specific to one round.

SDS-GEN, the 50 Cal ban 50 BMG ban has sparked a new cartridge based on the 50 BMG case, it is a 416 from Barrett, it is legal in California. http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifle_99.aspx

All you guy's that are so opposed to hunting with a 50 BMG or want to put a limit on the size of the round allowed for hunting kills me. You are trying to impose your will and dislike for a certain way someone chooses to hunt. If it is legal, there is not real argument.

dukkillr · « **Reply #35 on:** January 19, 2007, 04:51:45 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 19, 2007, 03:34:47 AM

NONYA, I know you are a little hot about this subject, but someone being over weight does not automatically make him as a slob hunter or unethical person!

I would argue that being physically fit is a very important factor for western big game hunting. Certainly it's not impossible to be fat and climb up and down the mountains, but it's certainly harder.

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 19, 2007, 03:34:47 AM

You are trying to impose your will and dislike for a certain way someone chooses to hunt. If it is legal, there is not real argument.

But those laws can be changed. You said it might be illegal to shoot FMJs. Wonder where that law came from. I suspect that the powers that be felt they were a tool unsuited to big game hunting and it's culture and spirit. Lots of people would say the same exact thing about the .50 and thus the possibility of a rule change. Not every law/rule that makes sense was concieved of at the outset of the state's laws. Times change, creative people think of new ways to avoid the spirit of the law without avoiding the actual rules. Then rules change.

I'm with Nonya, the .50 isn't a hunting round and their continued use will bring more bad press and support for anti-hunter groups. Laws in this country are made by the middle ground in this country many of which are not hunting experts. Our image is an important factor when you consider that.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #36 on:** January 19, 2007, 06:05:29 AM »

HUNTERS ARE HUNTERS WORST ENEMY. In America, 80% of people do not hunt. Of those, about 60% of them have "no opinion" either way about hunting. That means that a small percentage are rabid animal rights activists and they will use anything we say and do to influence those with "no opinion". Once they do that, hunting will be history.

corbanzo · « **Reply #37 on:** January 19, 2007, 08:21:48 AM »

Im just wondering why it would be wrong to set up a 50 on a mount and hunt long range with it. Seriously, how many people here have been in a tree stand? NONYA, you ever been in a tree stand? You sit there and wait, then you take a shot at sometimes 30 yards, where's the skill? At least with the .50 you have to be a competant long range shooter. Seriously, there are many different types of hunters out there. And well put Redhawk1, we are our own worst enemy. If hunters start knocking other hunters, where are we then? Do we really want hunters to start agreeing with activists? Big mistake.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #38 on:** January 19, 2007, 08:49:28 AM »

This has nothing to do with ethics, it is all about what you think is right or wrong. 50 BMG hunting is not a new thing, I heard of it about 6 years ago when I was heavy into shooting my 50 BMG. It was a sore subject then and appears to still be. But it is not a common practice.
The shear expense in shooting a 50 BMG is enough to deterrent a lot of hunters, the method of carrying around a 32 pound gun is another deterrent. Also laws in some States about shooting from vehicles and road ways is another deterrent.

Sorry some of us don't agree.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #39 on:** January 19, 2007, 10:50:26 AM »

Is it legal in your State?? If so your there is not much you can do or say.

Ethics is a matter of opinion. No one agree's on ethics nor gun etc. What you think is ethical may differ from others.

You talk about Elk moving out of area because these guys shoot at them from 1000 yards, what a joke, you shot at them at 200 yards and don't scare them? Your argument does not hold water with me. What do the Elk know? Do you think they sit around and say, hay where did that bullet come from. LOL Next you will say they are putting holes in the ground and it is eroding the hill sides.

You don't like the laws where you live and are so frustrated move. If your State did not want them to hunt with a 50 BMG's they would make a law agents it. But for now you are stuck with it and have to deal with it. I don't have a problem not using a 50 BMG and frankly I don't care if someone else does use one, as LONG AS IT IS LEGAIL.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #40 on:** January 19, 2007, 11:55:25 AM »

Ethics?

No your opinion. Just remember the anti's love division. So by your siding with them you are basically an anti hunter. Now I'd probably not hunt elk like this. I'm mostly a bow hunter. I'm to each there own. You don't own these elk they are public property. Too many people today are trying to force there opinion and style of hunting onto others by calling it "ethical". I see this in the bow hunting community alot. At one time hunting deer from an elevated deer stand wasn't "ethical" in MN. Now if you want to give your opinion say its your opinion. Don't hide behind the e word.

dukkillr · « **Reply #41 on:** January 19, 2007, 12:32:24 PM »

I love the argument that if you disagree with me you're as good as an anti. It's as absurd as it is simplistic. Just because someone uses a method to kill an animal DOES NOT make it hunting. Otherwise my mom is a hunter because she hits deer with her car. It's the same argument people use to defend the shooting of tame animals in pens. Those people will destroy hunting, not real hunters like NONYA.

SDS-GEN · « **Reply #42 on:** January 19, 2007, 01:10:23 PM »

Is shooting an animal after dark by shining a spot light on it ethical? Is scouting from an aircraft then landing and shooting an animal ethical? I doubt anyone here would disagree that these things are not fair chase and are not ethical. These things have happened in the past and enough hunters said it was immoral to get laws passed forbidding such activities. These are just two examples of game laws I read in the regulations, I call them "well duh" regulations. If enough people feel that this behavior (1000+ yard shots)is unethical it will become law, at this point the courts have decided what is ethical when hunters themselves should decide what is and isn't fair chase. For me its black and white a shot at these ranges is target practise at a living target, not fair chase hunting.

RaySendero · « **Reply #43 on:** January 19, 2007, 01:18:05 PM »

Quote from: NONYA on January 18, 2007, 10:01:00 AM

they dont lug them into the woods,they drive them around until they can put them on a portable shooting bench they carry in the back of the truck.Cant you see how detrimental this style of "hunting" can be to our sport?

Look guys, The sky ISN'T falling here!

Suspect there are very few using this technique. Also, suspect the ones that do are probably already breaking the law of not shooting/hunting with in 150 feet of road! So they could/should be dealt with within the existing laws. I wouldn't hunt with a 50 BMG but also would not support a law restricting them as will set precident for more problems than it will solve!

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #44 on:** January 19, 2007, 02:59:53 PM »

Quote from: SDS-GEN on January 19, 2007, 01:10:23 PM

Is shooting an animal after dark by shining a spot light on it ethical? Is scouting from an aircraft then landing and shooting an animal ethical? I doubt anyone here would disagree that these things are not fair chase and are not ethical. These things have happened in the past and enough hunters said it was immoral to get laws passed forbidding such activities. These are just two examples of game laws I read in the regulations, I call them "well duh" regulations. If enough people feel that this behavior (1000+ yard shots)is unethical it will become law, at this point the courts have decided what is ethical when hunters themselves should decide what is and isn't fair chase. For me its black and white a shot at these ranges is target practise at a living target, not fair chase hunting.

Another term over used and worn out, fair chase.
You want to be a real hunter, get a big club and chase down your game and kill it, because that is the only real fair chase I know of. Any time you sit back and throw out those over rated slogans you make yourself look foolish in my opinion.
How can we consider using scope, spotting scopes, high power rifles, range finders, tree stands, or any modern gadget's in our modern society and call it fair chase?

But I've been to the game and fish meetings with the anti's wanting to outlaw certain methods or seasons. You know what's always the first words out of their mouths? "Well, even some hunters agree with us". Every time you lowbrow a hunter using a legal method, YOUR NAME goes on the animal rights list. Maybe not by name, but damned sure by implication. The same guy who's so noble in his hunting methods still relishes veal cutlets from calves that were never allowed to walk outside a 2 x 4 stall. Where's "fair chase" when the eggs you eat are laid by chickens who don't have enough room to flap their wings or set down?

If you don't particularly relish taking an animal under conditions that make you question it, by all means DON'T. They say that ethics is how you act when no one else is watching. My ethics may be entirely different that yours - for better or worse, but just different. Don't feed the anti's.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #45 on:** January 19, 2007, 04:58:28 PM »

Won't be long before they start outlawing "SIPER RIFLES" for hunting. Some of these guys lug out there "SNIPER" rifles with bipods, high power scopes and sling to carry em.Some of them even use laser range finders and high power binoculars to spot and range them! They shoot animalsl a "QUARTER of a MILE" away with them. These guys aren't hunters. They should use a stick bow and flint tipped arrows to be "SPORTSMEN". Or maybe a spear or club.

Now I'm a bow hunter in general but I would never want to tell a fellow hunter that his metod is unethical. I love hunting and to me bow hunting is peaceful. I also love coyote hunting and we run and gun em. I avoid hunting with the Mr. ethical type (most of those guys are opinionated blow hards). The people I like to hunt with are the to each there own guys. Why have conflict. For every person that is pushed out of hunting by the know it all guys that one more possible person to vote for an anti hunting measure.

Most of the Mr. Ethical (opinionated) people I've met are guys who get that way near the end of the season and are skunked. They get upset and start whining that someone stole there deer. At least the guy I know like that around here gets that way.

Like i said before together we stand divided we fall.

And shooting a coyote after dark with a spotlight here in MN has been deemed "ETHICAL".

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #46 on:** January 20, 2007, 02:10:05 AM »

Are we done yet? I doubt there is much more you or anyone here can say that will change my mind. I am moving on, the discussion was great.

SDS-GEN · « **Reply #47 on:** January 20, 2007, 05:44:23 AM »

Sorry should have qualified my line about jack lighting animals, night hunting varmints is legal in most states and is a challenge, However no state that I know of allows night hunting of big game. We don't hunt to survive anymore, its called sport hunting for a reason. I fail to see the challenge, for anyone, in shooting an animal from a road at the ranges we are talking about here. Again if you want to hunt with a 50BMG, climb the mountain, get as close as possible, and make a humane shot. Big game hunting is about "the hunt" not the kill.

Comparing the killing of a delicious veal calf to a wild animal has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Redhawk I hope you read the article from Field and Stream, the guy missed 27 times, it didn't say how many animals he wounded. When was the last time you missed 27 animals on one hunt? Would you still want this guy in your camp, would you want your name printed in the article next to his? As hunters the anti's will put all of our names in next to his. I don't need to feed the anti's there is enough crap out there on this issue already for them to use. And as I stated I believe hunters should be able to police themselves on these issues.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #48 on:** January 20, 2007, 10:09:31 AM »

SDS-GEN maybe you and NONYA can team up and go on a crusade to ban the 50 BMG for hunting. But don't get to upset if a lot of people don't jump on your band wagon.

SDS-GEN, was it not you that brought up fair chase?? It was not the issue at hand either.

Have you noticed you are just about the only two who are making the most noise about the 50 BMG used for hunting?

NONYA I don't have an unattached attitude, I just understand it to be legal and therefor not a problem.

nomosendero · « **Reply #49 on:** January 20, 2007, 10:31:40 AM »

I wonder about these "fat boys" Nonya is talking about. It was stated that they could not carry these weapons up the mountain to save their lives. It is stated that this is the only way that they can hunt ELk, fat like the Weird Al video I guess. That of course would mean that if they can't carry a 50BMG, they dang sure can't cut up an Elk & carry it back across the canyon & back to the truck.

So Nonya, here is my question that I have been wondering about in regards to this issue. Are these dudes shooting Elk across the way & leaving them laying & if that answer is yes, are you SURE?

billy_56081 · « **Reply #50 on:** January 20, 2007, 10:49:47 AM »

.50 BMG guns arn't hunting guns? I think I hear a little antigun rhetoric hear. I remember the "for sporting purposes" part in the semiauto ban a few years ago. Sounds like we have an allie of the antigun movment here.

"My hunting" "My big game season" sounds a little selfish to me. It is just as much thier season and hunt as yours. I bet the anti hunters love to hear this arguing. I bet they would even count you as an ally. "Hey we even have avid hunters that agree with us.

If you let them make this inroad they will only use it as a stepping stone. Next will be the guy with the "SNIPER RIFLE" a bolt action high velocitey scoped rifle. Just like the military uses to make kills at 1000 meters. The anti's just love to get hunters and shooters allied with them to chip away at our rights just a little tiny bit at a time.

tanoose · « **Reply #51 on:** January 20, 2007, 10:53:59 AM »

I have no use for a 50 but i would never vote to ban them. Who am i to ban something i dont use maybe the guy using it loves his 50 as much as i love my 45/70. Now How would you feel if someone tried to ban the .45 next?

nomosendero · « **Reply #52 on:** January 21, 2007, 04:37:18 AM »

Quote from: nomosendero on January 20, 2007, 10:31:40 AM

I wonder about these "fat boys" Nonya is talking about. It was stated that they could not carry these weapons up the mountain to save their lives. It is stated that this is the only way that they can hunt ELk, fat like the Weird Al video I guess. That of course would mean that if they can't carry a 50BMG, they dang sure can't cut up an Elk & carry it back across the canyon & back to the truck.

So Nonya, here is my question that I have been wondering about in regards to this issue. Are these dudes shooting Elk across the way & leaving them laying & if that answer is yes, are you SURE?

I am still curious about this, something is missing here don't you think?

Mac11700 · « **Reply #53 on:** January 21, 2007, 07:05:59 AM »

Even though I probably would never use one...I would do every thing in my power to not loose the right to do so...When we allow anyone to dictate what we can use that is legal now...even though it is way to much..they will gladly make it illegal.I have no problem with a minimum caliber rule...that is for the sake of the animal...but I will be damned if I go along with a maximum caliber usage for the sake of soothing some idiot politicians fears...and to allow the antis another way of removing a gun because of their dislike of it from those that would own and shoot them...That is exactly what this is about...It is just another way to eventually outlawing them completely...and if those that are in favor of this ban don't wake up and put their personal issues aside..is exactly what will happen...My question to those in favor of this is simple.... Is that what you really want...Because if you answer yes....then to me you are really a closet anti... Because to be in favor of restrictions such as this..or banning its usage from sporting use...NO MATTER WHAT YOUR OPINION OF THE CALIBER...then as far as I am concerned...you are already in league with them...This is their strategy...divide the people and win the battle of gun control...They tell people there is no real reason to have one or to use one...and make the whole thing out as being a bad thing...That rational people don't need one...That they are dangerous...and only criminals will use them...They try to paint the picture of anyone who uses one as a terrorist...They will demonize anyone who doesn't agree with their way of thinking...or go along with their ultimate scheme of gun control...Make no mistake about that...

Give them an inch...we all loose in the end...This is the reality we face today...If this is allowed to stand...it opens the doors to them getting other rifles and calibers banned...ONE GUN AT A TIME IF NEED BE...this is their motto...I will ask this again...Those in favor of this...is this really what you want?...If it is...then you are helping them succeed in their long range plan of gun control...no matter how you have rationalized it to yourself...Some ask...why is so dammed difficult for some to fully understand this...It simple...They are putting their personal dislikes above the wants of others and fully agree with the antis...They figure if they don't like it...or want it..or use it..no-one else should...In other words...they believe in selective gun control......I know full well this will draw rebuttal...but..as far as I am concerned..this is exactly how I feel...You either believe in the right of the people to choose for themselves as individuals..or you believe in the right of the government to choose for you as a group of sheep...

Mac

Mac11700 · « **Reply #54 on:** January 21, 2007, 08:46:07 AM »

Here's one last thing about this...I would much rather be around a person who takes the time to set up a bench...knows exactly what the bullet will do..where it will go..and can make a clean shot on an animal 1000 yards away...than most of the so-called hunters who limit their shots to 300 yards and will indiscriminately blast away at any animal or sound...To me...it isn't the range of the animal or size of the bullet that makes it good or bad..but the individuals skill at making the shot... It doesn't matter if you call it hunting or not..Ethics isn't part of the equation...It's about loosing your gun rights...The Antis want all guns out of our hands...and the animal rights crowd want all taking of animals stopped...... It doesn't matter how long you have been hunting...how many guns you own..how far away you feel is proper for hunting..what caliber of gun you use........If you agree with ANYTHING THEY PROPOSE....THEY HAVE ALREADY WON

Mac

HotGuns · « **Reply #55 on:** January 21, 2007, 12:08:42 PM »

I own a .50 and have built a few. I think its hilarious that some folks think that you can just take any .50, set it up and whack any animal 1000 yards away or better.

These same folks that claim that you can bust armour at 2 miles away or that anyone can shoot anything as far away as they can see it, are ususally the ones that claim to be for hunting rights, they claim to support gun ownership and they also claim to be sportsman, yet they constantly bitch about someone that dosent do things like they think they ought to be done.

To be honest with you, its sickening.They use misinformation and facts that they hear from the news media to support their arguments without even having a clue of how stupid they sound to the people that know better...while claiming to be smarter than that. They fail to see that when a legilslatiure bans any caliber for any reason, that it becomes easier to ban the next caliber. These folks are truly ignorant of the tactics of the enemy...the same enemy that knows that if they cant ban outright ownership of firearms here in America,that they have to ban them one weapon at a time or come up or even invent some special reason for doing it.

But you know what? These folks are easy to spot. Even if they claim not to be in the camp of the enemy, their words prove oitherwise.

Now here is the thing. Can someone articulate to me why someone is advocating BANNING a specific caliber that is apparently LEGAL to hunt with in that state ?

Even if it isnt LEGAL to do so, can someone please tell me why I should be penalized because someone else screwed up?

nomosendero · « **Reply #56 on:** January 21, 2007, 12:39:54 PM »

It's called incrementalism or eating an Elephant one bite at a time.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #57 on:** January 21, 2007, 01:53:38 PM »

For some reason I find myself on the side of the guy's I generally disagree with. The 50 BMG is a cartridge, nothing more. But people invision it being carried around to a bench,set up on the side of the interstate, and blasting away at an animal 1000+ yds off. It's not the cartridge that is offensive, it's the way people suggest it's used. Banning the 50 cal cartridges will do nothing to stop what I think many really don't like. Look at it this way, if you could load the 50BMG in a 7 lb rifle with a 2-7x scope and call it a woods rifle, who would care. And then if the purpose of the ban was to ban the 50BMG, why not just ban it and not all 50cal? I've been hunting for about 45+ years and have yet to see a 50BMG in the field. I've seen several rifles chambered for it but all were for sale in a store somewhere. And, the only round I've ever seen for it was at a gun show. Yea, there's a dead rat in the heating duct here!

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #58 on:** January 21, 2007, 02:08:11 PM »

Mac11700, great 2 post you made, I think you said a lot and I could not find a thing wrong with anything you posted.

HotGuns, I was a 50 BMG owner and know what you mean. Most of the guys shooting 50 BMG are great marksman and know the limitations of there guns. A lot of them put more time than any hunter I have seen at the range. I no longer own a 50 BMG, but I will help support them, I am also a member of the 50 Caliber Shooters Association.

It is easy for the anti's to find the weak links in our chain, just look at this thread and you will see a couple of weak links. (FACT)

Ranger J · « **Reply #59 on:** January 22, 2007, 04:48:27 AM »

Has anyone actually personally seen anyone setting up a shooting bench and shooting at game with one of these rifles on the highway or road right of way? In the area where I live you are lucky to have a 100 shot available because of all the trees and brush. I’m just curious, is this actually happening on a large scale or not
RJ