.308 Marlin Express

[DavOh]

Read part of an article about a new caliber from Hornady and Marlin utilizing the LeverEvolution technology.  I think the article was in Guns'n'Ammo. 

Anyone have any info on this one?

 From what I remember reading it will be .308 winchester ballistics but a much different casing and case capacity.

[Coyote Hunter]

I like it.  Here's some performance data:

200 yards:
 793fpe = Hornady 170g factory load .30-30
 832fpe = Hornady 150g factory load .30-30
1120fpe = Speer 150g 2400fps handload .30-30
1121fpe = Speer 170g 2200fps handload .30-30
1410fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .30-30
1552fpe = Speer 170g 2550fps handload for .308 Marlin
1761fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .308 Marlin

Of course, once we have zeroed for MPBR for a 6" diameter target we can look at where the bullet is down 10" - a combination I frequently use when assessing the useful range of a firearm (in addition to other factors):
240yds/696fpe = Hornady 170g factory load .30-30
255yds/683fpe = Hornady 150g factory load .30-30
260yds/962fpe = Speer 170g 2200fps handload .30-30
275yds/904fpe = Speer 150g 2400fps handload .30-30
290yds/1179fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .30-30
300yds/1212fpe = Speer 170g 2550fps handload for .308 Marlin
320yds/1403fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .308 Marlin

One last comparison, using the 1403fpe delivered by the .308 ME at 320 yards as the basis:
 60yds/1387fpe = Hornady 170g factory load .30-30
 70yds/1386fpe = Hornady 150g factory load .30-30
110yds/1403fpe = Speer 170g 2200fps handload .30-30
120yds/1400fpe = Speer 150g 2400fps handload .30-30
200yds/1410fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .30-30
240yds/1408fpe = Speer 170g 2550fps handload for .308 Marlin
320yds/1403fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .308 Marlin





And here's something I have posted in other threads - 69 reasons the naysayers don't like it.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


1.  Should have used a .7mm-Waters.
2.  Should have used a .7mmSTE.
3.  Should have used a 7.62x39.
4.  Should have used a .30-30AI.
5.  Should have used a .300 Savage.
6.  Should have used a .307 Win.
7.  Should have used a.33 Win.
8.  Should have used a.348 Win.
9.  Should have used a JDJ cartridge.
10.  Should have done a .50 Alaskan.
11.  Should have used a 20” barrel.
12.  Should have had a spiral magazine.
13.  Should have used a blued, octagonal 24” barrel.
14.  Forget the whole thing, it's D.O.A.
15.  Forget the whole thing, I can't operate the lever.
16.  Forget the whole thing, it's not readily available.
17.  Forget the whole thing, its got that stupid safety.
18.  Forget the whole thing, ammo will cost $40 a box.
19.  Forget the whole thing, too much recoil and noise.
20.  Forget the whole thing, I'd rather it was a .45-70 pump.
21.  Forget the whole thing, I already have long range rifles.
22.  Forget the whole thing, "i'm just too old & don't like change."
23.  Forget the whole thing, it solves a problem that doesn't exist.
24.  Forget the whole thing, just get a bolt gun in .308 Win or .30-06.
25.  Forget the whole thing, just get a bolt gun for your sniping needs.
26.  Forget the whole thing, if I want long range I’ll get a Sharps or Ballard.
27.  Forget the whole thing, someone will load it with regular spitzer bullets.
28.  Forget the whole thing, the .308 Marlin has not passed the test of time.
29.  Forget the whole thing, leverguns weren't intended to have such capabilities.
30.  Forget the whole thing, it won't do anything a .30-30 at the same pressures won't do.
31.  Forget the whole thing, if you buy one you are doomed to buying factory ammo forever.
32.  Forget the whole thing, "because I am too old to realize a gain in performance and value of this new caliber."
33.  Forget the whole thing, just get a Winnie in .307 or a Savage 99 or a Browning BLR or a Winnie/Browning 1895.
34.  Forget the whole thing, new Marlin rifles have a "cheapness" about them that precludes any interest in them as a whole.
35.  Forget the whole thing, the .308 Marlin Express "would NOT make a good Black Bear caliber.  Unless you are shooting Cubs."
36.  It must be a lie, you can't get .307 velocities from a smaller case withhout pressures higher than a .307.
37.  Should have just manufactured the Savage 99 under license.
38.  Why reinvent the wheel (.307 and Savage .300)?
39.  The ammo will cost too much.
40.  You can’t match factory ballistics.
41.  You can’t even match factory muzzle velocity.
42.  You can't get the brass.
43.  You can’t get the bullets.
44.  You can't get bullets in the same weight.
45.  You can't get the powder.
46.  You can't get the dies.
47.  The powders aren’t available so its really just a .30-30 XLR.
48.  Don’t like the way the XLR looks.
49.  Don't like Marlins, why should I like this one?
50.  The .30-30 can kill at 200 yards and beyond – what’s the point?
51.  The XLR will cost too much.
52.  2” groups at 200 yards is not match-grade ammo.
53.  Its just a scam by greedy companies to get your money.
54.  Marlin should have spent their “finite resources” to improve the accuracy of ALL their rifles.
55.  Marlin should have spent their “finite resources” to introduce novel/better open sights.
56.  Marlin should have spent their “finite resources” to make periodic runs of guns chambered for obsolete cartridges.
57.  Marlin should have spent their “finite resources” to introduce a ‘tactical’ 1894.
58.  Marlin should have spent their “finite resources” to introduce a pump-action .357/.44/.45.
59.  Sharp-pointed bullets don’t offer anything over RN or FN bullets, so what’s the point.
60.  Old timers figured if they could hit a piece of typing paper they were sighted in, why does Marlin need to be different?
61.  Most game is taken at 100-150 yards tops, why do we need something that reaches further?
62.  The .30-30 has taken Africa’s Big Five, why do we need anything else?
63.  You don’t need the extra energy the .308 Marlin provides as the .30-30 can kill a 200-pound deer at 230 yards.
64.  You don’t need the extra trajectory the .308 Marlin provides as the .30-30 can kill a 200-pound deer at 230 yards.
65.  The extra range of the .308 Marlin will just encourage people to take shots at ranges they shouldn’t attempt.
66.  I won’t buy a .308 Marlin because Marlin didn’t answer a letter I wrote them.
67.  The trend toward modernizing traditional designs is a waste of time – it can’t be done.
68.  You can’t use the .308 Marlin’s extra range without a scope, and scoping a levergun is just wrong.
69.  I won’t buy a .308 Marlin because Marlin won’t build rifles chambered for the obsolete cartridges I want – and I know two other guys that want them, too!


Just to make it clear, these are not my opinions of the .308 Marlin - I'm getting one, most likely the XLR!  It will go nicely with my levers (Marlins in .30-30, .375 Win, and .45-70, Browning B92 in .44 Mag) and my three .30 bolt guns (.308 Win, .30-06 and .300 Win).

[Gunjunkie]

CH... ROFLMAOPMP

[Sarge]

Well, I'm not gonna buy one until Gunjunkie buys one. Besides, I'd rather have it chambered for the new 338 Federal.

[Lloyd Smale]

lets see its yup to
10
11
21
22
23
32
48
63
68
 

[Gunjunkie]

Well, I'm not gonna buy one until Gunjunkie buys one. Besides, I'd rather have it chambered for the new 338 Federal.

I am sure going to put my best effort into finding some money someplace to get one.. 

[Ratltrap]

Sorry, but I'll pass.  Putting a 300 yard cartridge into a Marlin 336 doesn't add up to a 300 yard game gun.

[Swampman]

If they stop making the cartridge and brass in a year or two, can it be formed from another cartridge?

[Blackhawk44]

Yup, they can be formed from those .307 Winchester hulls that litter the firing line at your local range.

[Coyote Hunter]

Sorry, but I'll pass.  Putting a 300 yard cartridge into a Marlin 336 doesn't add up to a 300 yard game gun.

It does if the rifle and shooter are accurate enough. 

I have no trouble putting shots in the kill zone at 300 yards with my Marlins in .30-30, .375 Win or .45-70.  It then becomes a question of energy and bullet.  The Hornady ammo delivers over 1400fpe at 300 yards.  That's more than my 2183fps 350g load for the .45-70. 

[Ratltrap]

Sorry, but I'll pass.  Putting a 300 yard cartridge into a Marlin 336 doesn't add up to a 300 yard game gun.

It does if the rifle and shooter are accurate enough. 

True. And in this case the rifle aint up to it.

[Swampman]

If the new Marlin .30-30s will shoot 3/4" groups at 100 yards, that's better than almost any factory bolt action will shoot.  That could make the .308 Marlin Express a 300 yard gun in my book.

[Coyote Hunter]

Sorry, but I'll pass.  Putting a 300 yard cartridge into a Marlin 336 doesn't add up to a 300 yard game gun.

It does if the rifle and shooter are accurate enough. 

True. And in this case the rifle aint up to it.

That's quite a statement from someone who has never shot or even seen one of the new .308 Marlin rifles.

The fact of the matter is that many Marlins are accurate enough at 300 yards and the limiting factor has often been the loads available.  In one gun rag test the Marlin levergun was more accurate than any of the bolt guns tested.  You don't need sub-MOA at 300 yards.  Accuracy of 2MOA is quite adequate and many - or even most - Marlins will do much better.

[Ratltrap]

Sorry, but I'll pass.  Putting a 300 yard cartridge into a Marlin 336 doesn't add up to a 300 yard game gun.

It does if the rifle and shooter are accurate enough. 

True. And in this case the rifle aint up to it.

That's quite a statement from someone who has never shot or even seen one of the new .308 Marlin rifles.

The fact of the matter is that many Marlins are accurate enough at 300 yards and the limiting factor has often been the loads available.  In one gun rag test the Marlin levergun was more accurate than any of the bolt guns tested.  You don't need sub-MOA at 300 yards.  Accuracy of 2MOA is quite adequate and many - or even most - Marlins will do much better.

CH - True enough - I haven't seen the MX rifle and neither have you.

Precision is the issue not accuracy. I can shoot MOA accuracy with my Marlins they just won't dependably repeat POI within 6" @ 100 yards at the end of a day in the woods. That's potentially 6 feet off with your 2 MOA gun @ 300 yards so what game will you use the 308ME on? When the military snipers and beanfield rifle makers switch over I'll give long range leverguns another look.

[Coyote Hunter]

...Accurate isn't the problem. Shifting POI is. I can shoot MOA with my Marlins just can't depend on them to shoot within 6" of the POI they did at the 100 yard range after carrying them in the woods all day - so what use are they on a 300 yard game shot? When the military snipers and beanfield rifle maker switch over I'll give the long range marlins another look.

Sorry to hear you Marlins are such POS's.   Mine have not exhibited that problem.  Nor has it been a problem with the Browning B92.  Maybe it is technique rather than the rifles.

300 yards is hardly long range in my book, but then I shoot iron-sighted pistols out to 200.

[Keith L]

My Marlin bounces around in the truck, then spends all deer season in the woods and the poi doesn't change.  What is shifting on yours?  This is the first I have heard of a problem like this.

[Swampman]

"I can shoot MOA with my Marlins just can't depend on them to shoot within 6" of the POI they did at the 100 yard range after carrying them in the woods all day"

Quit using cheap scopes & or mounts.

[Ratltrap]

My Marlin bounces around in the truck, then spends all deer season in the woods and the poi doesn't change.  What is shifting on yours?  This is the first I have heard of a problem like this.

Don't get me wrong I like my Marlins and I don't really consider their limits to be a problem they just define how I use them. All of my rifles have limits - for example I could easily shoot moose at 300 yards with my 223 - but of course I don't. That doesn't make the rifle a problem.

Variety of factors contribute to the POI change, but 2-piece wood stocks probably top the list. Wet weather tends to change the shape of any wood stock here, but 2 piece stocks seem to affect POI more often. I've had the same problem with a Rem. 760 that I also wouldn't take a 300 yard shot with even though it was ballistically very capable. I finally put a plastic stock on my 30-30 and had it professionally "accurized", which helped, but with all the gear hanging off the Marlin barrel it still doesn't take much to change the POI a few inches @ 100 yards. Both of my rifles are particular about how they are rested and will even change POI depending on how many rounds are in the magazine. All told, the 30-30 and 35 Rem. are both good cartridges for the limits of my Marliins. I don't know what "accurizing" changes Marlin is making with the MX, but putting 300 yard ballistics in my rifles might lead to some good range tricks, but also to some wounded game. I'm sure my rifle shooting technique could use improvement, but given that the ballistics would allow clean kills I'd have to pass on 300+ yard game shots with these rifles that I'd probably take with some of my bolt guns.

[Keith L]

" Wet weather tends to change the shape of any wood stock here, but 2 piece stocks seem to affect POI more often."

My experience has indicated the opposite.  A couple of the guys I used to hunt with had bolt action one piece walnut stocked rifles that the POI changed remarkably when wet.  My Marlin and my Contender held POI.  I assumed that the long wood put stress on the barrel, changing its relationship with the reciever, and the short wood didn't have that effect.


I will have to try different resting and see what happens.  I normally sight in with a bipod on the sling mount, but have also uses sandbags on the forearm with no change in POI.

Maybe I just got lucky, and it isn't even one of the "good" ones.  It is a 30AW with a good trigger job.  Sounds like I better keep it.

[Ratltrap]

" My experience has indicated the opposite.  A couple of the guys I used to hunt with had bolt action one piece walnut stocked rifles that the POI changed remarkably when wet.  My Marlin and my Contender held POI.  I assumed that the long wood put stress on the barrel, changing its relationship with the reciever, and the short wood didn't have that effect

I don't think it's all the stock, as my plastic stocked professionally "accurized" 30-30 still shifts some too. Most of my bolt guns have 'glass tocks so wet/dry weather isn't much of an issue anymore for them, but I've certainly had better luck relieving wood around the barrel on bolt guns than figuring out where the stress is with all of the hangers on the 2-piece stock/tubular magazine/barrel banded lever guns. Both of my lever rifles shoot fine off the bench as long as I load 3 or fewer shells and maintain the same rest.

I'm just trying to point out that the 308MX may not be a panacea. I'm sure it would be great fun to plink clay pigeaons at 500 yards or whatever, but I need to be able to hit where I aim on the first shot under hunting conditions. My brand new 336 35 Rem. did shift POI 6" @ 100 yards after a 4 day hunt. I did kill 2 deer with it last fall, but fortunately I wasn't carrying it when the deer showed on that particular hunt. Since then I've relieved some wood and metal with a few of the tips from McPherson and the CAS guys, so maybe that will help next time it gets real wet, but I still get shifts in POI based on how it is rested and how many rounds are in the magazine. For woods range hunting I'm a Marlin fan, but this rifle is being advertised for 300 yard range and I'm far from convinced that it's ethical for me to be taking 300 yard shots at game with these guns after a week in the wet from an improvised rest. How many guys do you know that will ever check to see if their guns shift POI under hunting conditions? I didn't, and many I know just take the gun out of the safe and maybe go to the range and fire one or two shots off the bench before going hunting.

[Coyote Hunter]

ratltrap -

1. It may be unethical for you to take a 300 yard shot with a Marlin – any Marlin.  So don’t do it.

2. Not everyone hunts where “it gets real wet”.  In 25 years I’ve hunted in sunshine, fog, drizzle, rain, sleet and snow, sometimes all in the same day, but never had a rifle change POI to the point where it made a difference when I pulled the trigger. A little polyurethane and/or oil or wax does wonders.  Then again, although the guns get wet sometimes, I don’t hunt for long in pouring rain – its usually sleet or snow instead.  Many folks hunt in dry conditions and moisture is among the least of their problems.

3. What other people do has never been of much interest to me.  Some people can’t consistently hit an 8” target at 100 yards with their bolt guns – should I therefore not shoot that far?  Some people hunt elk with a .243 Win – should I sell off my Magnums?  Some people don’t scope their Marlins – should I therefore remove the scopes on mine?  Some people go hunting with rifles they have never shot – Never! – should I do the same?  Thanks, but no thanks!  I shoot at the range from both bench rested and field positions and have a pretty good idea where the bullets are going to land at any range I would attempt a shot at.  So do many other hunters.  If you are going to disqualify a rifle from being a 300 ayrd rifle based on what some people do, don’t do or cannot do, NO rifle would qualify as a 300 yard rifle.

[Keith L]

Unfortunately lots of hunters around here are happy with having their scopes boresighted when installed and never go to the range at all.  I need to have confidence in myself and my equipment, so there are lots of range sessions and some dry runs with all the hunting equipment and into the stand before the season.  And here you can count on wet during our gun season, so I practice in the wet as well.  The good thing is that I like the practice nearly as much as the hunt.  I shoot at 100 yards and have confidence in the gun at that distance, but my hunting shots are normally more like 40-50 yards in the woods.  So the 300 yard shots are not likely for me either.  As I recall the best group I shot with the gun after the trigger job was shooting a full magazine out, so if that caused change I would have seen it.  But I will have to try it out and with different rests to make sure of what I recall.  Sounds like more fun.

[Ratltrap]

What other people do has never been of much interest to me.  Some people can’t consistently hit an 8” target at 100 yards with their bolt guns – should I therefore not shoot that far?  Some people hunt elk with a .243 Win – should I sell off my Magnums?  Some people don’t scope their Marlins – should I therefore remove the scopes on mine?  Some people go hunting with rifles they have never shot – Never! – should I do the same?  Thanks, but no thanks!  I shoot at the range from both bench rested and field positions and have a pretty good idea where the bullets are going to land at any range I would attempt a shot at.  So do many other hunters.  If you are going to disqualify a rifle from being a 300 ayrd rifle based on what some people do, don’t do or cannot do, NO rifle would qualify as a 300 yard rifle.

CH - I appreciate your spirited defense of long rang lever gunning (you oughta see Marlin or Hornady about a job!). With your shooting skills I'll bet the 308ME/MX will be a great combo for you. But I gotta also say that for a guy that's not interested in what others do you are quite an expert at what they are up to and what they should be doing instead.

I don't see the ME in my future as I'll just keep hunting in the rain and using the best tools for the job. If they bump it up to 35 though I will take another look. That would be a good levergun cartridge

[Swampman]

If they stop making .308 Marlin brass, can it be formed from another case?  Will the LEVERevolution bullets ever be available to reloaders?  Without the powder Hornady is using will it just be another .30-30?

These are questions I'd like to know the answer to?

[Coyote Hunter]

Swampman -

Dave Emary, the man who designed the cartridge says that Hornady started out with a .307 Win case and shortened it, apparently by about 0.100".

As to the flex-tip bullets, I suspect they will become available at some point in time although not immediately.  That's OK by me because I won't use them anyway - I'll use the .308 Marlin to boost velocities for the 170g Nosler Partition, which I consider to be a much better bullet.

As to the powder, no, the .308 Marlin will still provide a nice velocity boost over the .30-30.  With 170g bullets I'm guessing about 100fps loss using regular powders compared to the 160g bullets and powder Hornady is using.  And 150g bullets might get very close.  It will be very interesting to see what 130's can do.

[Swampman]

If it could produce Krag velocites with a 180 & 220 grain softpoint bullet, I be all over it esp in a Handi Rifle.

[DavOh]

CH - I appreciate your spirited defense of long rang lever gunning (you oughta see Marlin or Hornady about a job!). With your shooting skills I'll bet the 308ME/MX will be a great combo for you. But I gotta also say that for a guy that's not interested in what others do you are quite an expert at what they are up to and what they should be doing instead.

I don't see the ME in my future as I'll just keep hunting in the rain and using the best tools for the job. If they bump it up to 35 though I will take another look. That would be a good levergun cartridge

MY MOM, took many deer out to 250+ yards with a Marlin 336 plain jane .30-30 with a 3x9 Leupold..... No she was not a particularly talented shot, and rarely did I ever see her at the Range with the rifle.  She just new that if it looked like a long way away, but the crosshairs on the top of the deer's back.  It's not that complicated as you have a good 12"+ diameter killzone(with a rifle) on a grown whitetail.

And I'm not defending anything.  Just stating my experience, AS FACT.

[Ratltrap]

MY MOM, took many deer out to 250+ yards with a Marlin 336 plain jane .30-30 with a 3x9 Leupold..... No she was not a particularly talented shot, and rarely did I ever see her at the Range with the rifle.  She just new that if it looked like a long way away, but the crosshairs on the top of the deer's back.  It's not that complicated as you have a good 12"+ diameter killzone(with a rifle) on a grown whitetail.

And I'm not defending anything.  Just stating my experience, AS FACT.

No offense to your mom and speaking only for myself, I wouldn't brag on 250+ yard shots at whitetails with a 'plain jane' 30-30. A quick check of 30-30 ballistics for 'plain jane' factory loads would tell me I was well below the 800 fpe rule-of-thumb for deer, and being an imperfect marksman I'd pass on those shots - and have.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but from my perspective, I've wasted far too many precious tags killing game that was wounded by someone else to standby for declarations about long range "hunting" exploits without at least calling BS - but ethics may vary. A couple years ago, for example, I heard a guy bragging about his 500 yard deer rifle - a 220 Swift. The next week I had to tag a doe that was hobbled by infected open sores on both hams apparently made by a small caliber bullet. Can't prove the Swift shooter did it, but when it quacks like a duck ,,,,.

Where guns are concerned I'm first a hunter and shooter is down the list somewhere, so 250 yards would be a long but comfortable shot for me, but one that I might take with the right levergun under the right conditions. But, if you recall, the conditions I spec'd were not 250+ but 300 yard 'shots at game with these guns after a week in the wet from an improvised rest.' If I were to see game under those conditions the first thing I'd try to do is get closer and barring that I would decide whether I could make an easy and clean kill from where I was with the gun I'm carrying. Under my conditions, the 336 examples I have would never be used on game even if they had the ballistics to make a clean kill. The platform simply isn't reliable enough to take the shot. Out of curiosity, what conditions were your moms shots taken under?

[ScoutMan]

Swampman -

Dave Emary, the man who designed the cartridge says that Hornady started out with a .307 Win case and shortened it, apparently by about 0.100".

As to the flex-tip bullets, I suspect they will become available at some point in time although not immediately.  That's OK by me because I won't use them anyway - I'll use the .308 Marlin to boost velocities for the 170g Nosler Partition, which I consider to be a much better bullet.

As to the powder, no, the .308 Marlin will still provide a nice velocity boost over the .30-30.  With 170g bullets I'm guessing about 100fps loss using regular powders compared to the 160g bullets and powder Hornady is using.  And 150g bullets might get very close.  It will be very interesting to see what 130's can do.

All this in 20" or carbine length barrels?

[Keith L]

People, lets keep this discussion on a proper level.  We are getting close to turning this into personal comments.  Lets stay away from that please so I don't have to really moderate.

Thanks

Keith