.308 Marlin Express

[Ratltrap]

Swampman -

Dave Emary, the man who designed the cartridge says that Hornady started out with a .307 Win case and shortened it, apparently by about 0.100".

As to the flex-tip bullets, I suspect they will become available at some point in time although not immediately.  That's OK by me because I won't use them anyway - I'll use the .308 Marlin to boost velocities for the 170g Nosler Partition, which I consider to be a much better bullet.

As to the powder, no, the .308 Marlin will still provide a nice velocity boost over the .30-30.  With 170g bullets I'm guessing about 100fps loss using regular powders compared to the 160g bullets and powder Hornady is using.  And 150g bullets might get very close.  It will be very interesting to see what 130's can do.

All this in 20" or carbine length barrels?

As I understand it there will initially be 2 versions, a 22" blued/walnut version and a 24" stanless w/ laminated stock. Only 1 160 gr. Leverevolution load of factory ammo will be offered by Hornady.

[DavOh]

I had like 20 odd lines of rebuttal typed up and just thought why bother.  I do, however, respect the fact that you are disciplined enough to know your weapon well and restrict yourself only shots you have 100% confidence in.

I suppose my point could best be summerized in this:  Ballistics and BR accuracy do not make a rifle a 300 yd Deer rifle.  The shooter does. 

Most, if not all factory rifles can hold 2.5-3 MOA out to 300 yds**, the rest is up to the shooter.

I will throw this part in however.  I've seen toomany deer dropped with shots from a M1 Carbine that has like 900 FPE at the muzzle. I just dont abscribe to the arbitrary 800 FPE "rule of thumb".

[Norseman]

In my humble opinion, the .308 Marlin in conjunction with Marlins new lever action rifles, and the other new loadings with "pointed" bullets that are safe in the lever action rifles we all love, this is the biggest technological advance in lever actions in 100 years!  Forget Winchester's crap...look where they are now......DEFUNCT!  Kaput! HISTORY (unfortunetley)  If you think for example that the .308 Marlin is like the .307 Win, your'e just afraid it will bite the dust and won't invest in a new rifle chambered for a new cartridge.  Right?  You COULD NOT HAVE a POINTED bullet in the .307, or any of the Winchester Big Bore stuff. This NEW technology in combination with the OLD we love so dear is a unbelievable!  Both for narrowing the gap between the "INNACURATE...SHORT RANGED>>>BRUUUUSH BUSTER" lever actions (as they used to say PRIOR to this).  Why?  NOW our lever action MARLIN'S can compete both SHORT range and LONG! with, you guessed it: the Bolt Rifle.  So why would you think this is a threat to your beloved lever actions?  This is the biggest thing that could happen for our cause and love of traditional lever action rifles! This is sooooo BIG and GOOD, that if you disagree, I would imagine you are lighting your house with an oil lamp and wiping down that old lever action...sweating out your Model-T payments, and I will be polishing my new Marlin chambered in .308 Marlin by Hornady, stainless, sweating out my 2007 payment--LOL....with a LIGHT BULB;  illuminating this fine new rifle and ammo combination.   Should'nt we all be illuminated as well?   I may get my game on average of 80 yards, but how many did I have to pass up that were 200 plus?  NOT ANY MORE!!!!CONGRATS TO MARLIN AND HORNADY! This is good new gentleman!

[Gunjunkie]

Short range only Marlin Levers???   You people have not met Reflex yet..

[Ratltrap]

if you disagree, I would imagine you are lighting your house with an oil lamp and wiping down that old lever action...sweating out your Model-T payments, and I will be polishing my new Marlin chambered in .308 Marlin

Interesting point of view from someone touting a "new and improved" Marlin that was designed in 1893 and hasn't had substantive change since 1936. I like the Marlin Company and I'm hoping they will actually make some constructive changes with the MX rifles that can be used to improve their entire product line.

Anyway, I do disagree with your main point - allow me to turn up my oil lamp for you  ; Are LE's good news? Yes, but the bullet is mostly a marketing gimmick - just crunch the numbers. The bullet is an interesting idea, but LeverEvolution is really about low pressure and high muzzle velocity and that technology has been available for some time in Hornady's light magnum series. 'Course for the forseeable future it's a one-trick (per caliber) pony and it will be a very long time before it's available to the handloader. Need to ask yourself if it would really have been such a big hit without that 'purty (but unnecessary) red tipped bullet?

[Coyote Hunter]

...

Are LE's good news? Yes, but the bullet is mostly a marketing gimmick - just crunch the numbers. The bullet is an interesting idea, but LeverEvolution is really about low pressure and high muzzle velocity and that technology has been available for some time in Hornady's light magnum series. 'Course for the forseeable future it's a one-trick (per caliber) pony and it will be a very long time before it's available to the handloader. Need to ask yourself if it would really have been such a big hit without that 'purty (but unnecessary) red tipped bullet?

Ratltrap -

OK, I ran the numbers and I'm still impressed by what the .308 Marlin can do as loaded by Marlin.  It beats the snot out of standard .30-30 factory loads, my .30-30 handloads, and even Hornady .30-30 LE ammo.

I posted these on page one, but perhaps they bear repeating:

200 yards:
 793fpe = Hornady 170g factory load .30-30
 832fpe = Hornady 150g factory load .30-30
1120fpe = Speer 150g 2400fps handload .30-30
1121fpe = Speer 170g 2200fps handload .30-30
1410fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .30-30
1552fpe = Speer 170g 2550fps handload for .308 Marlin
1761fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .308 Marlin

Of course, once we have zeroed for MPBR for a 6" diameter target we can look at where the bullet is down 10" - a combination I frequently use when assessing the useful range of a firearm (in addition to other factors):
240yds/696fpe = Hornady 170g factory load .30-30
255yds/683fpe = Hornady 150g factory load .30-30
260yds/962fpe = Speer 170g 2200fps handload .30-30
275yds/904fpe = Speer 150g 2400fps handload .30-30
290yds/1179fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .30-30
300yds/1212fpe = Speer 170g 2550fps handload for .308 Marlin
320yds/1403fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .308 Marlin

One last comparison, using the 1403fpe delivered by the .308 ME at 320 yards as the basis:
 60yds/1387fpe = Hornady 170g factory load .30-30
 70yds/1386fpe = Hornady 150g factory load .30-30
110yds/1403fpe = Speer 170g 2200fps handload .30-30
120yds/1400fpe = Speer 150g 2400fps handload .30-30
200yds/1410fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .30-30
240yds/1408fpe = Speer 170g 2550fps handload for .308 Marlin
320yds/1403fpe = Hornady LeverEvolution 160g .308 Marlin

Take a look at that last bunch of numbers.  The .30-30 delivers 1400fpe out to about 65 yards.  My best handloads stretch that out to 120 yards.  the .30-30LE ammo adds another 80 yards to make it 200 yards, and the .308 Marlin LE ammo adds another 120 yards to make it 320 yards.  That's 200 yards further than my best .30-30 handload and 250 yards furhter than factory loads - which don't even make it to the 100 yard line.


Here are the actual MPBR calculations for a 6" diameter target - meaning the bullet is never more than 3" above or below line of sight from the muzzle to MPBR.  Granted, I odn't know th eBC's for th eLE bullets, but the numbers I've used match the Hornady published trajectories very, very closely.

Zero/MPBR = Load
170yds/199yds = Hornady 170g factory load .30-30 (2200fps, .189BC)
183yds/213yds = Hornady 150g factory load .30-30 (2390fps, .186BC)
182yds/213 yds = Speer 150g handload .30-30 (2400fps, .268BC)
195yds/227yds = Speer 170g handload .30-30 (2200fps, .304BC)
201yds/237yds = Hornady 160g LeverEvolution .30-30 (2400fps, .35BC)
209yds/245yds= Speer 170g handload for .308 Marlin (2550fps, .304BC)
221yds/261yds= Hornady 160g LeverEvolution .308 Marlin (2660fps, .38BC)


Once again, you seem to be totally focused on the long range aspect of the .308 Marlin.  While that is noice, I think the more useful aspect is the extra energy it provides at ranges where most game is actually shot.  In all my years of elk hunting I've taken more at ranges under 200 yards than over.  Factory .30-30 and even my .30-30 handloads don't deliver the enrgy I want at 200 yards when dealing with elk, but the .308 Marlin will do nicely- with either type of load.

 

[Swampman]

In the Jan issue of rifle magazine there is an article which shows that above 1700fps the point doesn't amount to much.

[Lloyd Smale]

does the 3030 have enough power to kill a deer at 250 yards? YOU BET IT DOES. I weight more then a deer and sure would want to stand out there 250 yards from one and take a hit in the chest. Can the average man hit one properly with an open sighted lever (the way God intended a lever to be used) probably not. Will a .308 marlin do it. Yes! can the average hunter use the better trajectory to his advantage? probably not. Now if you want to take one of these marlin sniper guns. With there laminated stocks and bright stainless metals (my grandpa is rolling over right now) and with a barrel at least two inches longer then i personaly like on a levergun and make it into a beenfield rifle by screwing on a 4x12 lazer rangefinding, trajectory compensating scepe with a 50 mm objective lens you sure have differnt gun tastes then me. A lever gun to me is a nice shrort barreled quick handling quick shooting hard hitting gun that fits nice in a scarab or balances in the hand so nicely that you can carry it all day without a sling and not tire. If i want a long barreled heavy scoped rifle that has a sling why would i want to even bother with a lever gun. I use a bolt 06 or some such gun. I cant see myself needing the fast shooting lever at a deer 300 yards running across a field and 20 inch bolt lightweight rifle will probably handle faster in the brush then your long barreled heavier lever will anyway. Sorry but to me its just a gimic gun like the 460 smith thats advertised as a 200 yard deer pistol (sorry Redhawk) It to me is a feeble attemp by marlin to try to boost so dismall sales! If they would have put that much engineering into the .475 linebaugh 94 project or would get off there duffs and make us a factory .50 alaskan theyd appeal to the real grass roots lever fans and leave the long range lever guns to browing who allready makes them in real long range calibers and are ugly enough that a scope doesnt ruin the lines. Just my opinion and as usual you know what thats worth .

[Swampman]

To tell the truth after all these years of bow hunting, I have a hard time getting myself to shoot more than 50 yards.  I have to force myself to setup farther away from deer trails like I should be.

[Coyote Hunter]

In the Jan issue of rifle magazine there is an article which shows that above 1700fps the point doesn't amount to much.

No, it probably doesn't.  With the .308 Marlin and factory ammo that means it wouldn't matter at ranges beyond 475 yards...

My best .30-30 handload (in terms of retained energy, the 170g Speer at 2200fps) doesn't retain 1700fps past 210 yards. 

Hornady's 150g .30-30 load makes it to the 175 yard line and the Hornady 170g load only makes it to the 130 yard line.

As far as I'm concerned, though, the 1700fps mark is unimportant.  Retained energy and momentum are of more importance to me.  Further, I won't be shooting the Hornady bullets even if they become available because I believe there are better alternatives (Speer 150/170g, Barnes 150g TSX and Nosler 170g Partition RN).  Just using the Speer as an example and driving it from the .30-30 and the .308 Marlin with handloads:


200 yards:
1121fpe = Speer 170g 2200fps handload .30-30
1552fpe = Speer 170g 2550fps handload for .308 Marlin

6" MPBR
260yds/962fpe = Speer 170g 2200fps handload .30-30
300yds/1212fpe = Speer 170g 2550fps handload for .308 Marlin

1400fpe
110yds/1403fpe = Speer 170g 2200fps handload .30-30
240yds/1408fpe = Speer 170g 2550fps handload for .308 Marlin


In his "Bullet Performance' article Pearce tested bullets at .30-30 velocities only.  In conclusion he states "Rather than choosing a bullet because it is shooting an inch or two flatter at 250 yards, I would suggest selecting one based on accuracy and terminal performance."  So how do these loads compare at 250 yards when each is individually zeroed for Maximum Point Blank Range for a 6" target?

Drop / fps / fpe = Load
-12.1" / 1332fps / 669fpe = Hornady 170g factory load .30-30 (2200fps, .189BC)
- 3.6" /1907fps / 1373fpe= Speer 170g handload for .308 Marlin (2550fps, .304BC)
- 2.1" / 2125fps / 1604fpe = Hornady 160g LeverEvolution .308 Marlin (2660fps, .38BC)

Brian would probably consider a difference in drop of 10" (-2.1" versus -12.1") to be well outside the "inch or two" he he mentions and would probably consider a 200% to 240% increase in retained energy (1373fpe and 1604fpe versus 669fpe) to be a difference well worth consideration.

On the other hand, the difference between the Hornady factory .308 Marlin ammo and a good ahndload amounts a difference of  only 1.5" and 231fpe at 250 yards.  Pearce has already dismissed such small differences in drop and would probably consider accuracy to be more important than the difference in energy.  So what is the big hoopla about handloaders not being able to get Hornady flex-tip bullets or the special powders Hornady uses?

[Coyote Hunter]

does the 3030 have enough power to kill a deer at 250 yards? YOU BET IT DOES. I weight more then a deer and sure would want to stand out there 250 yards from one and take a hit in the chest.

250 yards
669fpe = .30-30, Hornady 170g factory load (2200fps, .189BC)
987fpe = .30-30, Speer 170g handload (2200fps, .304BC)
1373fpe = .308 Marlin, Speer 170g handload (2550fps, .304BC)
1604fpe = .308 Marlin, Hornady 160g LeverEvolution .308 Marlin (2660fps, .38BC)

Yes, the .30-30 will kill a deer at 250 yards.  But given my druthers I'll take the .308 Marlin.

Can the average man hit one properly with an open sighted lever (the way God intended a lever to be used) probably not.

Speaking for God is a bit presumptuous.  But all three of my Marlins wear scopes, the way ***I *** intend them to be used.  Many others have equipped their Marlins in a similar fashion...

I do make allowance for occasionally shooting iron sights by mounting the scopes in Warne Quick Detach rings.  But even then I "cheat" and have replaced the front beads with Williams Firesights.  The Willaims front beads with a proper target make 200 and even 300 yard shooting fairly easy.  And there are a bunch of guys at the range that put my iron sight shooting to shame...

Will a .308 marlin do it. Yes!

So a Marlin with iron sights is no good at 250 yards unless it is a .308 Marlin?  The chambering makes the iton sights easier to use, or what?

can the average hunter use the better trajectory to his advantage? probably not.

See my post above.  Zeroing both for a 6" diameter target, the Hornady .308 Marlin ammo drops 2.1" at 250 yards versus 12.1" for their standard .30-30 ammo.  If we use a 12" drop as the basis for comparison, the .308 Marlin strecthes the range to 335 yards.

Call me silly, but I find that significant.  And, with the .308 Marlin's 1375fpe at 335 yards, quite useable.

Now if you want to take one of these marlin sniper guns. With there laminated stocks and bright stainless metals (my grandpa is rolling over right now) and with a barrel at least two inches longer then i personaly like on a levergun and make it into a beenfield rifle by screwing on a 4x12 lazer rangefinding, trajectory compensating scepe with a 50 mm objective lens you sure have differnt gun tastes then me.

The first time I saw a stainless/laminate Marlin I knew I wanted one.  Its been several years and I still don't have one.  I already have 3 walnut/blue Marlins and they all look about alike - when I pick up a .308 Marlin it will definitely be a stainless model.  And it will probably get the same scope I have on my .45-70 - a Leupold VXII 2-7x33, a fairly compact scope with great eye relief.  It would be great if Leupold offered drop compensating reticle in that model as I would definitely get one.  Hmmm, maybe I'll go with a Burris Fullfield II with the Ballistic Plex reticle instead - that scope works great on my bolt guns and its pretty affordable ...

A lever gun to me is a nice shrort barreled quick handling quick shooting hard hitting gun that fits nice in a scarab or balances in the hand so nicely that you can carry it all day without a sling and not tire.

What on earth do I need the rifle to fit in a scarab for when I don't own or hunt from horses?  My Browning B92 is considerably lighter and smaller than any of my Marlins and I often wish it had a sling.

If i want a long barreled heavy scoped rifle that has a sling why would i want to even bother with a lever gun.

Can't speak for you, but I like the feel and look better than any bolt gun - even when they are wearing scopes. 

I use a0  bolt 06 or some such gun. I cant see myself needing the fast shooting lever at a deer 300 yards running across a field

I can't see myself taking such a shot with a bolt gun, either.

and 20 inch bolt lightweight rifle will probably handle faster in the brush then your long barreled heavier lever will anyway.

In my 25 years of hunting elk, deer and antelope I can count on one finger the shots I didn't take because I couldn't get the rifle into position quickly enough.  And the problem had nothing to do with the rifle itself.  (There have been more times when I chose not to shoot, or even not to attempt to raise the rifle, but then I'm not one to attempt snap shots at running game, particularly when they are in heavy cover.)

Sorry but to me its just a gimic gun like the 460 smith thats advertised as a 200 yard deer pistol (sorry Redhawk) It to me is a feeble attemp by marlin to try to boost so dismall sales! If they would have put that much engineering into the .475 linebaugh 94 project or would get off there duffs and make us a factory .50 alaskan theyd appeal to the real grass roots lever fans and leave the long range lever guns to browing who allready makes them in real long range calibers and are ugly enough that a scope doesnt ruin the lines. Just my opinion and as usual you know what thats worth .

I agree about the Brownings - I've shot them but they have little aesthetic appeal to my eyes.

As to the .460 S&W, I don't know.  I shoot my iron-sighted .357 Magnum Blackhawk and scoped .44 Magnum Super Redhawk at 200 yards as often as I shoot them at 100 yards.  (And its very rare I shoot them at less than 100.)  While the .460 S&W doesn't appeal to me, I don't see anyone claiming the TC Contender/Encore isn't adequate at 200 yards.

The level of engineering going into the .308 Marlin is probably considerably less than many people think.  No major modifications to the basic 336 design were needed and Hornady developed the ammunition.  Attempting a .475 Linebagh would have probably required a heavily redesigned (mucho expensive) receiver and Marlin would have ended up with a rifle that does nothing the .45-70 or 450 Marlin doesn't already do better.  The risk/reward ratio isn't there.

Many folks find the recoil of standard 450 Marlin or .45-70 loads to be intimidating or even downright painful.  Launching a 460g hardcast at 1812fps from my 7.5 pound Marlin 1895 generates 48.0 foot-pounds of recoil.  That is NOT a pleasant round to shoot.  The .50 Alaskan loads listed by Wild West Guns use a 450g bullet at 1820fps to 2040fps, generating 52.0 foot-pounds to 63.9 foot-pounds of recoil.

Again, call me silly, but I just don't see much of a market for such loads or Marlins to shot them in.

[Coyote Hunter]

To tell the truth after all these years of bow hunting, I have a hard time getting myself to shoot more than 50 yards.  I have to force myself to setup farther away from deer trails like I should be.

Perhaps if you get out of the swamps and try hunting out west your attitude will change.  My friends are avid (and successful) bow hunters and a couple of us hunt black powder.  We all use rifles to one degree or another, and we all recognize that sometimes there is no substiture for a weapon with a long reach.

[Lloyd Smale]

lets see to address you personaly something that wasnt my intentions in my post. The 3030 definatley has enough power for deer at 250 as ive seen a few shot at those distances and i dont need a bunch of baliistic mumble jumble to prove it just field experience. As far as the distance as to which one will kill at the extreme of there capablitys its more of a matter of how there sighted and whos shooting them the a couple hundred foot lbs of energy because if you dont put the bullet in the bolier room you have missed or have a wounded animal whether shot with a 30303 or a 300/378 weatherby and i dont see where a bunch of people are going to go out and buy a 308 marlin to replace there beenfield rifles or a bunch of guys going out to buy them to replace there brush or swamp hunting guns. So to me its just another round like the .307 thats destined to die. Sorry if im a little more old school and dont like scopes on my lever guns and especially not on a revolver. If i want a handgun to shoot game at 200 yards im going to take a tc out with a scope. I shoot more long distance handguns then probably anyone here with the exception of a couple guys that i know personaly on here. We shoot open sighted revolvers at 600-1000 yards regularly and i know what it takes to hit targets with a handgun at 200 yards EVERYTIME and sorry but under field conditions i dont consider myself good enough with an open sighted revolver to do it. Not that i dont know people who can. As to the scope argument a scope doent make a gun shoot one iota better at 250 yards if you doubt that go to a nra shoot sometime and watch the guys with there peep sighted m14s shoot one inch groups at 200 yards. And ill put your flatter trajectory making the big difference to a test anyday watching 1000 yard bench rest shooters sitting at the same bench with there 3006s and 308s as the guys with the magnums sit at. They may not win but they sure do compete. Why because they know there weapon and they know the trajectory of it and know how to compensate for a couple inches of trajectory. As far as what it takes to make a .475 94 marlin it isnt a compete rethinking of the whole gun. Im haveing one built by my freind Rob Applegate right now and if you think a 50 alaskan or 475 lever wont sell i think you should check out jim taylor levergun forum. Theres a bunch of  real levergun fans there that would jump on one. Id about bet more then will jump on this 308. Just the fact that marlin has sold so many 4570s shows me that theres people out there that want power in a lever and arent afraid of recoil. I 475 lever on a 94 would give you 4570 power in a lot handier package. Im the last one to critisize anyones choise in weapons or hunting. I never said anything bad about your 308 marlin. It no doubt will be an excellent killer of deer. It just doesnt do anything that hasnt been done allready and gone by the wayside. ie 307 3040 300 savage. Why someone would think this is the best thing since sliced bread is beyond me when savage did it over 50 years ago and how many of them do you see now. Marlin in my opinon for what its worth should market more guns that the dedicated lever fans want. Older calibers for the cowboy shooters and plinkers like me and big bores for the hunters. They allready have two real good chamberings in the mid bores. the 3030 and the .35 rem. and i guess ill stick with them. I actually had a stainless lever gun. It was a guide gun but just couldnt warm up to it. Thats just my preference as i still havent got modern enough to even like stainless bolts. Nothing like blued steal and wood to me. Sorry if i stepped on anyones toes or challanged anyones knowlege but I pride myself in baseing what i know about guns and hunting on my field experience not on some mathimatical figures i can pull up on the computer. I bust rocks to learn trajectory and long range skills and do it better then i use this mouse.

does the 3030 have enough power to kill a deer at 250 yards? YOU BET IT DOES. I weight more then a deer and sure would want to stand out there 250 yards from one and take a hit in the chest.

250 yards
669fpe = .30-30, Hornady 170g factory load (2200fps, .189BC)
987fpe = .30-30, Speer 170g handload (2200fps, .304BC)
1373fpe = .308 Marlin, Speer 170g handload (2550fps, .304BC)
1604fpe = .308 Marlin, Hornady 160g LeverEvolution .308 Marlin (2660fps, .38BC)

Yes, the .30-30 will kill a deer at 250 yards.  But given my druthers I'll take the .308 Marlin.

Can the average man hit one properly with an open sighted lever (the way God intended a lever to be used) probably not.

Speaking for God is a bit presumptuous.  But all three of my Marlins wear scopes, the way ***I *** intend them to be used.  Many others have equipped their Marlins in a similar fashion...

I do make allowance for occasionally shooting iron sights by mounting the scopes in Warne Quick Detach rings.  But even then I "cheat" and have replaced the front beads with Williams Firesights.  The Willaims front beads with a proper target make 200 and even 300 yard shooting fairly easy.  And there are a bunch of guys at the range that put my iron sight shooting to shame...

Will a .308 marlin do it. Yes!

So a Marlin with iron sights is no good at 250 yards unless it is a .308 Marlin?  The chambering makes the iton sights easier to use, or what?

can the average hunter use the better trajectory to his advantage? probably not.

See my post above.  Zeroing both for a 6" diameter target, the Hornady .308 Marlin ammo drops 2.1" at 250 yards versus 12.1" for their standard .30-30 ammo.  If we use a 12" drop as the basis for comparison, the .308 Marlin strecthes the range to 335 yards.

Call me silly, but I find that significant.  And, with the .308 Marlin's 1375fpe at 335 yards, quite useable.

Now if you want to take one of these marlin sniper guns. With there laminated stocks and bright stainless metals (my grandpa is rolling over right now) and with a barrel at least two inches longer then i personaly like on a levergun and make it into a beenfield rifle by screwing on a 4x12 lazer rangefinding, trajectory compensating scepe with a 50 mm objective lens you sure have differnt gun tastes then me.

The first time I saw a stainless/laminate Marlin I knew I wanted one.  Its been several years and I still don't have one.  I already have 3 walnut/blue Marlins and they all look about alike - when I pick up a .308 Marlin it will definitely be a stainless model.  And it will probably get the same scope I have on my .45-70 - a Leupold VXII 2-7x33, a fairly compact scope with great eye relief.  It would be great if Leupold offered drop compensating reticle in that model as I would definitely get one.  Hmmm, maybe I'll go with a Burris Fullfield II with the Ballistic Plex reticle instead - that scope works great on my bolt guns and its pretty affordable ...

A lever gun to me is a nice shrort barreled quick handling quick shooting hard hitting gun that fits nice in a scarab or balances in the hand so nicely that you can carry it all day without a sling and not tire.

What on earth do I need the rifle to fit in a scarab for when I don't own or hunt from horses?  My Browning B92 is considerably lighter and smaller than any of my Marlins and I often wish it had a sling.

If i want a long barreled heavy scoped rifle that has a sling why would i want to even bother with a lever gun.

Can't speak for you, but I like the feel and look better than any bolt gun - even when they are wearing scopes. 

I use a0  bolt 06 or some such gun. I cant see myself needing the fast shooting lever at a deer 300 yards running across a field

I can't see myself taking such a shot with a bolt gun, either.

and 20 inch bolt lightweight rifle will probably handle faster in the brush then your long barreled heavier lever will anyway.

In my 25 years of hunting elk, deer and antelope I can count on one finger the shots I didn't take because I couldn't get the rifle into position quickly enough.  And the problem had nothing to do with the rifle itself.  (There have been more times when I chose not to shoot, or even not to attempt to raise the rifle, but then I'm not one to attempt snap shots at running game, particularly when they are in heavy cover.)

Sorry but to me its just a gimic gun like the 460 smith thats advertised as a 200 yard deer pistol (sorry Redhawk) It to me is a feeble attemp by marlin to try to boost so dismall sales! If they would have put that much engineering into the .475 linebaugh 94 project or would get off there duffs and make us a factory .50 alaskan theyd appeal to the real grass roots lever fans and leave the long range lever guns to browing who allready makes them in real long range calibers and are ugly enough that a scope doesnt ruin the lines. Just my opinion and as usual you know what thats worth .

I agree about the Brownings - I've shot them but they have little aesthetic appeal to my eyes.

As to the .460 S&W, I don't know.  I shoot my iron-sighted .357 Magnum Blackhawk and scoped .44 Magnum Super Redhawk at 200 yards as often as I shoot them at 100 yards.  (And its very rare I shoot them at less than 100.)  While the .460 S&W doesn't appeal to me, I don't see anyone claiming the TC Contender/Encore isn't adequate at 200 yards.

The level of engineering going into the .308 Marlin is probably considerably less than many people think.  No major modifications to the basic 336 design were needed and Hornady developed the ammunition.  Attempting a .475 Linebagh would have probably required a heavily redesigned (mucho expensive) receiver and Marlin would have ended up with a rifle that does nothing the .45-70 or 450 Marlin doesn't already do better.  The risk/reward ratio isn't there.

Many folks find the recoil of standard 450 Marlin or .45-70 loads to be intimidating or even downright painful.  Launching a 460g hardcast at 1812fps from my 7.5 pound Marlin 1895 generates 48.0 foot-pounds of recoil.  That is NOT a pleasant round to shoot.  The .50 Alaskan loads listed by Wild West Guns use a 450g bullet at 1820fps to 2040fps, generating 52.0 foot-pounds to 63.9 foot-pounds of recoil.

Again, call me silly, but I just don't see much of a market for such loads or Marlins to shot them in.

[Ratltrap]

...

Are LE's good news? Yes, but the bullet is mostly a marketing gimmick - just crunch the numbers. The bullet is an interesting idea, but LeverEvolution is really about low pressure and high muzzle velocity and that technology has been available for some time in Hornady's light magnum series. 'Course for the forseeable future it's a one-trick (per caliber) pony and it will be a very long time before it's available to the handloader. Need to ask yourself if it would really have been such a big hit without that 'purty (but unnecessary) red tipped bullet?

Ratltrap -

OK, I ran the numbers and I'm still impressed by what the .308 Marlin can do as loaded by Marlin.  It beats the snot out of standard .30-30 factory loads, my .30-30 handloads, and even Hornady .30-30 LE ammo.

I posted these on page one, but perhaps they bear repeating:

200 yards:
 793fpe = Hornady 170g factory load .30-30
 832fpe = Hornady 150g factory load .30-30
 ..........  (ad nauseum)

Once again, you seem to be totally focused on the long range aspect of the .308 Marlin.  While that is noice, I think the more useful aspect is the extra energy it provides at ranges where most game is actually shot.  In all my years of elk hunting I've taken more at ranges under 200 yards than over.  Factory .30-30 and even my .30-30 handloads don't deliver the enrgy I want at 200 yards when dealing with elk, but the .308 Marlin will do nicely- with either type of load.

CH - No. There is no need to repost all of the ballistics.

Now, put your ballistics calculator down for a minute and actually read the post. It had nothing to do with long range anything. The post I responded to was premised on the "conventional wisdom" that the LE ballistic advantage comes from the pointy rubber tipped bullets. All I'm saying is that the pointy bullets that the marketing is based on and that all the gun rags have the nice pictures of really have little to do with the cartridge ballistics. Better game loads than the LEs probably could have been developed years ago with "Light Magnum" technology behind readily available and better constructed bullets, but would they have been a commercial success? The pointed bullets don't really gain the consumer much, but they are a great advertising hook for marketing proprietary ammunition designed so that the ballistics cannot currently be duplicated by the handloader. Now we just need to get Hornady to put better bullets on those loads. Preferably some that shoot good in my guns 

[Lloyd Smale]

and there is another reason i think it will fail. If a guy has to buy factory ammo to gain what it has to gain I couldnt afford to shoot it enoung to get real personal with the gun. Dont know about the rest of you but im not paying a buck a crack to shoot a gun.

[Camel 23]

Theres a bunch of  real levergun fans there that would jump on one. Id about bet more then will jump on this 308.

I'd take a 475 or a 50 alaskan!!! 

[Coyote Hunter]

Now we just need to get Hornady to put better bullets on those loads. Preferably some that shoot good in my guns 

For your sake I hope they do - looks like we can agree on that.  I would be happy if they would make the powders available and let me choose my own bullets, but I won't be holding my breath.

[Coyote Hunter]

Lloyd –

I’m not taking any of this personally, but like you I respond with my experiences.  We have differences of opinion and I respect that.  I just happen to think you are wrong on many points. 

We both agree that the .30-30 can kill at 250 yards.  I just prefer more energy at that range than I can get even with my best .30-30 loads.

Like you, I agree that a miss is a miss regardless of the cartridge used.  One reason I prefer scopes is they help me place the bullet more precisely, especially in low-light situations.

Like you, I don’t see folks going out and replacing their beanfield rifles with Marlin .308s.  But I can see folks taking shots at 200, 250 and 300 yards that they wouldn’t attempt with a .30-30.

And like you I doubt many folks will replace their brush guns with the .308 Marlin.  At short ranges the .30-30 is quite capable.

Like you. I agree a scope doesn’t make a rifle shoot any better.  They do, however, help ME to shoot better.  Much better.

You’re convinced the .308 Marlin is doomed to die.  I’m not convinced but hope that is not the case.  The market will decide, but either way I’ll get mine and have the closest think to a Marlin in .307 that I’m ever likely to get.

Yeah, I know about NRA High Power shoots – I’ve even shot a few using peep-sighted M1’s.   Made me a believer that *** I *** should be using scopes when live game is involved.

Like you, I don’t consider myself good enough to hit targets at 200 yards “EVERYTIME” with a revolver.  Hell, I can’t do it, scope or no scope.  But I like to try and I do fairly well.

Like you, I agree the .308 Marlin doesn’t do anything that hasn’t been done before – at least in other rifles.  But the .307 was never available in a Marlin and the .300 Savage isn’t suitable for a Marlin due to existing ammo using pointed bullets.  The .308 Marlin is as close as I expect to get to the Marlin in .307 that I’ve wanted for a number of years.  If I could buy a Marlin in .307 Win I wouldn’t give the .308 Marlin a second look. 

My toes are fine.  I walk on the bottoms all the time, a few scuff marks on top don’t make any difference. 

As to using a computer, I’m an engineer and tend to think like one.  Having relatively hard numbers for comparison is something I find to be quite useful when comparing cartridges.  A ballistic calculator is a darn good tool IMHO.

Like you I enjoy busting rocks to learn trajectories, but find that I shoot more clay pigeons than rocks.  What I find is that, in terms of trajectory, the real world usually matches the theoretical world of the ballistic calculator pretty closely.   

Stay away form those stainless Marlins – I want them.  Especially one in .308 Marlin. 

[Lloyd Smale]

guess i shouldnt admit i have one of those .356 winchesters that died and swear by it. It does the same thing to a 35 rem that the 308 does to the 3030. Reason i got it though wasnt that it shot flatter just that it handled 250 grain cast bullets better then a 35. Ive collected probably 1000 rounds of brass and would hartely recomend you do the same as soon as they sell it. I wouldnt even worry about the price of the brass as i still dont believe that 10 years from now youll be able to get it and if you can youll be paying out the nose for it. I guess what got me ruffled was it angers me when people quote ballistics they didnt come accross themselves. Gun writers do it too. They quote what the factory tells them and some poor sole buys a gun and finds out that the velocity is about 200 fps less then what was told to them. Ive sat behind a chronograph enough to know that half of whats in print is pure hogwash. Theres alot more then velocity at stake way out at 300 yards. Bullet design and shape play into it and ive seen two identical rifles with identical loads shoot both sighted in the same shoot loads to compeletly differnt places at 300 yards. Both verticaly and horizontaly. Sometimes by as much as 6 inches. IVe also seen guys with trajectorys marked on there rifles with tape that came from quoted factory ballistics and a ballistics calculator. These two idiots bought great rifles great scopes and high dollar rangefinders and didnt even take the time to sight in there rifles past 100 yards. Makes me shake my head. Ive also had guys tell me that there 300 super short mags (another sore point of mine) were just the end all to ballistics that they shot so flat that they could just aim at a deer about 10 miles away and the bullet would find it. Come to find out my buddy who is a local dealer bore sighted them and they never touched them afterward!!!!! With that ill go back to this. NO GUN OR CARTRIDGE will make you able to hit a deer at one yard farther then another UNLESS you take the time to LEARN your gun. Shoot it clean it Shoot it 500 times more clean even take it to bed with you (my girlfreind thinks id rather) A gun is just a tool a hunk of wood and steel that throws a chuck of lead. Its your brains knowlege on whats going to happen to that hunk of lead after it leaves the barrel that will make the differnce in whether your eating venison tommarow. Not a ballistics chart or some majical made up amount of engery. I watched a couple years back on a farmers deer cull a old guy drop a deer at 175 yards with a scope    sighted 3220. Guy was getting ribbed by two young hunters that had a 06 and a 270 about his acient underpowered deer gun. We walked up to the doe and it had been shot in the head and the bullet went right on through and the old timmer said looks like the gun had plenty of power. Now how do you argue with that!!!! I guess ill stop ranting now and close with this. Its lucky or grandparents didnt have computers or ballistic charts or guys like us that think we know what were talking about telling them there guns were underpowered and didnt have enough ft lbs of energy to kill game or man. They would have been so insecure that the white man would have starved to death or been killed trying to carve bows to compete with the indians!! Luckly they realized that when the put one of those underpowered lead slugs into the boiler room of something it died suprising quickly and in the case of the buffalo hunters at some pretty extreme ranges. Why BECAUSE they spent the time we spend on these silly computers learning to shoot!

[no guns here]

Well, haven't had a chance to shoot my old 1895 SS and the new LE ammo out past about 50 yards... I just had to shoot a few rounds of it and the light was fading and I had to fly back to Germany the next day so... BUT, I like it.  It may not be the be all and end all in ammunition but I think the fact that I can use a pointed bullet in my lever guns is a great development.  Hey, it get's me a 325 gr bullet that give a bit better trajectory than the flat points and hollow points.  What's not to like?  Don't like it? Don't shoot it.  Like it?  Buy a bunch and shoot them.  Personally, I've never looked at the .45-70 as more than a 100-125 yd round but maybe this will stretch it to 175 or so.  Won't know until I get time to get it on a longer range an see.

Play nice...

ngh

[Coyote Hunter]

Personally, I've never looked at the .45-70 as more than a 100-125 yd round but maybe this will stretch it to 175 or so. 

No need to limit a 1895 .45-70 to 175 yards, especially if shooting ammo that will reach further.  (Handloads in particular, Buffalo Bore and others...)


My hunting load is a North Fork 350g bonded bullet at 2183fps.  So far I've taken two animals with it, a mulie buck and a 6x6 bull elk - at 197 and 213 lasered yards respectively.  I figure 250 yards is an easy reach.  At 300 yards the bullet is down about 22" but still groups around 5".  Very manageable.

[Almtnman]

Like you, I don’t see folks going out and replacing their beanfield rifles with Marlin .308s.  But I can see folks taking shots at 200, 250 and 300 yards that they wouldn’t attempt with a .30-30.

And like you I doubt many folks will replace their brush guns with the .308 Marlin.  At short ranges the .30-30 is quite capable.

Like you. I agree a scope doesn’t make a rifle shoot any better.  They do, however, help ME to shoot better.  Much better.

You’re convinced the .308 Marlin is doomed to die.  I’m not convinced but hope that is not the case.  The market will decide, but either way I’ll get mine and have the closest think to a Marlin in .307 that I’m ever likely to get.

Yeah, I know about NRA High Power shoots – I’ve even shot a few using peep-sighted M1’s.   Made me a believer that *** I *** should be using scopes when live game is involved.

Like you, I don’t consider myself good enough to hit targets at 200 yards “EVERYTIME” with a revolver.  Hell, I can’t do it, scope or no scope.  But I like to try and I do fairly well.

Like you, I agree the .308 Marlin doesn’t do anything that hasn’t been done before – at least in other rifles.  But the .307 was never available in a Marlin and the .300 Savage isn’t suitable for a Marlin due to existing ammo using pointed bullets.  The .308 Marlin is as close as I expect to get to the Marlin in .307 that I’ve wanted for a number of years.  If I could buy a Marlin in .307 Win I wouldn’t give the .308 Marlin a second look.  

My toes are fine.  I walk on the bottoms all the time, a few scuff marks on top don’t make any difference.  

As to using a computer, I’m an engineer and tend to think like one.  Having relatively hard numbers for comparison is something I find to be quite useful when comparing cartridges.  A ballistic calculator is a darn good tool IMHO.

Like you I enjoy busting rocks to learn trajectories, but find that I shoot more clay pigeons than rocks.  What I find is that, in terms of trajectory, the real world usually matches the theoretical world of the ballistic calculator pretty closely.  

Stay away form those stainless Marlins – I want them.  Especially one in .308 Marlin.  

This seems to be an old topic, but I just happened across it and maybe get it back to the top. I bought a Marlin 308MX a few months back, installed a set of XS ghost ring receiver sight and XS front sight on mine. I bought 100 rounds of ammo for it, a set of RCBS dies and shellholder and powder for reloading. I found out that the flex tip bullets are not available for sale after making the purchase, so I contacted Hornady and asked about that. A couple of weeks ago they sent a reply back and told me that the bullets would be available this year. In the meantime, I just ordered a couple of boxes of Speer 170 gr flat nose bullets which also makes an excellent reloaded round for the 308 Marlin Express until the flex tip bullets become available. My son will pick those up for me and bring them by a little later. I plan on getting a box of Barnes 150 gr TSX flat nose HP and give them a try to as I have heard they are another good bullet to use in the 308MX. And Remington is now producing ammo for the 308 Marlin Express using a 150 grain flat nose Core Lokt bullet.

Now, I carried my Marlin 308MX to the range (I have the blue 22 inch barrel) and glad that was the one I bought because after handling the longer barrel stainless version, it was entirely too heavy for me to lug around in the woods. I wanted one that felt like a lever action feels and that is easy to carry and shoot while walking or stalking. Anyway, at the range, I was extremely impressed with the accuracy of this rifle. I was putting groups at 100 yards as if I was shooting one of my scoped rifles. It was even more accurate that what I had imagined it to be.

So with that, who else in this forum specifically has a 308 Marlin Express, so that we can discuss some load data for it?

[Coyote Hunter]

Almtnman -

The 165g .308" FTX bullets are available now - I bought a box at Sportsman's Warehouse last weekend.

[Almtnman]

I found the flex tip bullets for a 30-30, but I haven't been able to find the ones for the 308MX yet. Hornday sent me an email a couple of weeks back and told me that they would be available this year. The flex tip 30-30 bullet and the 308MX bullet are different in that the crimping groove is in a different location. If you work up any good loads using your bullets, I would like to hear the results. I have did a little research and found that the Reloader 15 might be one of the most accurate powders for it, so I bought a can to give a try once I get some bullets.