Author Topic: 35 Cakiber Question ? (Read 2688 times)

tanoose · « **on:** January 13, 2007, 05:10:57 AM »

While i am talking about the .358 Winchester the same could be asked about the 35 Whelen. Just about every article or post i read about the 358 win, reccommends the 180 or 200 grain bullets for deer and they reccommend you go to the 250 grain bullets for elk moose etc.Why? when the 180 grain bullet in the 358 winchester moves at 2700-2800 fps. This is the same velocity the 180 grain bullets in the 30/06 is moving at . And almost always the the 180 grain buller in the 30/06 is reccommended over the 200 and 220 grain bullets.And actually for me and many others wouldn't the 180 and 200 grain bulllets be a better choice over the 250 if you where using a lever, pump, or semi-auto , with a magazine that restricted you to a certain C.O.L. Please give me your thoughts on what i have just said. Thanks Tanoose

Rummer · « **Reply #1 on:** January 13, 2007, 05:39:32 AM »

I am aware of two 180 grain .35 caliber bullets. One is speer's 180 flat point, the other is hornady's 180 Single hot Pistol bullet. I believe that these bullets are designed for lower velocity shooting (.35 rem), with MV's in the neighborhood of 2100-2200 fps. I bet they'd be real deer hammers at about 2400fps.

I think the reason most people prefer/recommend 250gr for larger game is that .35 caliber bullets of that size are designed to function at .358/.35 whelen velocities and being longer than 200gr bullets they penetrate better.

I have never used 250gr bullets but I have read that they perform well on larger North American game at the moderate velocities generated by the Whelen and .358 Win.

I have only ever used my .35 whelen to deer hunt. I use 200gr Hornady SP's at about 2600fps. This performs well on deer. I have seen no evidence of bullet break up, so it may work on larger game, but I don't have any experience to offer up to you.

tanoose · « **Reply #2 on:** January 14, 2007, 03:13:27 AM »

I was curious about the 180's as the hornady manual shows them to 2800 fps in the 358 win. and 2750 in the whelen. I just bought this year a new BLR in 358 and was planning on using either the remington 200 PSPCL or thge Hornady 200 SP but a friend gave me a box of speer 220 FP to try and i really like the looks of these hot core bullets. I will see which one does well and use them . As for 250 grain bullets i have to take a good look at C.O.L.as my winchester factory loads come just chort of the mag and they measure 2.750 so i think the mag was manufactured to saami specs of 2.780 which would be exceded with many of the 250 grain bullets. Even the nosler 225 grain is to long for the mag.

fatercat · « **Reply #3 on:** January 14, 2007, 03:55:38 AM »

nosler makes a 180 gn. partition

tanoose · « **Reply #4 on:** January 14, 2007, 05:41:10 AM »

Yes fatercat and thanks i went to the nosler catalog to check out the ballistic differences between the 35 and 30 caliber 180 grain bullets and i also had this on another forum and the answer is all in the shape of the bullet. looking at the ballistic coefficient differences between the two the 35 caliber 180 nosler partition was .201 while the 30 calibner 180 partition was .474 . Thus making the 30 caliber a better choice in this weight for long range elk and moose.But i would bet that the 35 caliber 180 would do well on elk and moose at short range. I bought the BLR in 358 for deer and bear in NY and the hopes of a moose hunt hear in the north east . All my hunting is done at ranges under 100 yards so i think a 200 or 220 grain bullet between 2400-2500 fps will do just fine. Thanks again Tanoose

Sourdough · « **Reply #5 on:** January 14, 2007, 10:24:21 AM »

The 250gr .35 cal bullets give better penetration, and transfer more energy. As for comparing the 180gr .30 with the 180gr .35? The 180 .35 would do the job if you place the bullet properly, just as well as the 30-06. But why use a 180gr bullet when the 225, or 250gr .35 performes so much better? BUT I almost forgot. The most inportant reason not to use the 180gr .35 bullet is that it is a pistol bullet, not designed for the velocities of the rifle.

The 30-06 does not handle the 200, 220, and 250gr bullets well. They are just a little heavy for that caliber, and range is very poor. The 180gr is the optimal bullet for the 30-06. Yes my wife carries 250gr Barnes bullets in her 30-06, but all her shots are under 50 yards. And recoil from a 250gr bullet in the 30-06 is tremendous compared to 165s and 180s.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #6 on:** January 14, 2007, 03:58:42 PM »

Quote

The 30-06 does not handle the 200, 220, and 250gr bullets well.

I disagree... I've seen the 200 NP's work excelent in a 30-06, even at longer ranges... I will agree that to go heavier than 200's you need more case capacity... I like the 200 NP's better than the 180's because i've got better penetration out of 200's in all of my test...

200 NP's out of a 30-06 will out penetrate 200's out of a 350 Rem. mag. too... I've used both plenty on big game and you really need 250's in the 35 to get the best penetration on the biggest game "if" you hit other than in the ribs...

I just won't carry a cartridge/bullet combo that won't work well on "other than" rib shots on big game like moose ect...

DM

fatercat · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2007, 03:28:23 PM »

DM, don't forget the new 225 gn barns all copper tripple shock. the bare claw went threw a elk year before last. and the nosler ain't bad either, although i can't coment on the accubond.

tanoose · « **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2007, 10:47:30 AM »

Barnes also has a 180 XFB for use in the 358 and it moves along at over 2800 FPS

TrenchMud · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2007, 06:02:47 AM »

A .35 Remington will flatten a whitetail with a 200 grain bullet moving at slightly less that 2100 fps?
Moose and Elk regularly fall to the same cartridge. One guy I was listening to even used a .303 Savage with a 190 grain loading for Moose and Caribu which is only slightly more powerful than a .30-30 Win ! In the Scandinavian countries they use 140 grain 6.5 mm bullets for their species of Moose. (which I believe is heavier that the North American Species) Use what works for you, and what you can shoot accurately! Other "recomendations" are simply the opinions of others. If that old fella using that .303 savage brings home his game, That cartridge seems to do the job in his hands. Who am I to tell him that his cartridge is not powerfull enough when he has meat hanging in the cooler from using it?

Sourdough · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2007, 09:40:28 AM »

Frank Glasser, used a 22-250 to take everyting from Varmits to Grizzlies. Frank was an expert shot and an expert on wildlife annatomy. Just because he did it does not cause me to want to try it. With a .35 cal I won't use anything slower than a .35 Whelen or .350 Rem Mag.

As for the size of Moose. The Alaska/Yukon Moose is the largest species of Moose in the world.

handirifle · « **Reply #11 on:** January 22, 2007, 08:11:22 PM »

Quote from: TrenchMud on January 17, 2007, 06:02:47 AM

A .35 Remington will flatten a whitetail with a 200 grain bullet moving at slightly less that 2100 fps?
Moose and Elk regularly fall to the same cartridge. One guy I was listening to even used a .303 Savage with a 190 grain loading for Moose and Caribu which is only slightly more powerful than a .30-30 Win ! In the Scandinavian countries they use 140 grain 6.5 mm bullets for their species of Moose. (which I believe is heavier that the North American Species) Use what works for you, and what you can shoot accurately! Other "recomendations" are simply the opinions of others. If that old fella using that .303 savage brings home his game, That cartridge seems to do the job in his hands. Who am I to tell him that his cartridge is not powerfull enough when he has meat hanging in the cooler from using it?

One big difference when comparing the 35 Rem. The bullet was designed for the slower velocity of the 35 Rem and would blow up with little penetrating from the 358 or Whelen, unless you loaded it way down in which case why not just use the 35 Rem?

The 303 is just a hair below the '06 and quite a bit above the 30-30, in addition, like was stated above, the longer heavier bullet (ie, 303 @ 190gr) will penetrate better. It's designed for the 303's velocities. Same goes for the 6.5.

When we've loaded the 45-70 to 2300-2400fps using the 300gr JHP bullet, most everyone agrees that is TOO MUCH velocity for the bullet design and it WILL not penetrate very well. They start acting like varmint bullets, just big ones.

There is way too much emphasis on ultra high velocity= killing power. This is true if using the proper bullet, but when using a bullet of lesser construction, the results are less than pleasing. In the 35 a Barnes 225gr bullet should blow completely through BOTH shoulders of an elk or moose, most likely never being found.

Barnes recommends their 215gr TSX to me for my 338-06, for deer, through moose. My loads should push it at about 2800fps.

I think all the bullets tanoose mentioned, including the 220grFP, are designed for the 35 Rem and will be very effective on deer, be he may be disappointed on larger game. If all the shots are to be under 100yds as you mention, why not go for the heavier 225 or 250? The results will be very impressive. That's one of the reason these cases were opend to 35 cal in the first place because they will handle the heavier bullets, for heavier game.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #12 on:** January 25, 2007, 04:33:51 AM »

Handirifle, I think you misunderstood the .303 post. He referred to the 303 Savage, not 303 British. 303 Savage is just a 30/30 with 190 grain bullet, although they are not interchangeable and actually the 30/30 shows slightly more muzzle energy.
The usual recommendation of heavier bullets for heavier game is really not just about weight. The heavier bullets in any given caliber are normally designed for slower expansion and thus provide deeper penetration but that is not a hard and fast rule. Some .30 caliber 150 grain bullets will penetrate better than some other 180 grain. If you load a 170 grain flat point to max in a 30/06 it will be highly explosive on game because it was designed for velocities not much over 2000 fps. One reason the 30/30 has always performed splendidly is because it is loaded with bullets designed for its' normal velocities, whereas one may load a .300 Savage with bullets designed more for the .300 Weatherby.
While one may be quite correct in saying that 180 grains is plenty of bullet for elk, it is also correct that in .35 caliber those 180 grain bullets are designed more for whitetail and .35 Remington velocities. As an extreme example one could load a 200 grain pistol bullet at 2600fps from a 45/70 rifle and get total blow-up on impact even though that bullet may penetrate very well at handgun velocities of 1000 fps.
For the .358 Winchester I'd be happy with a 200 grain spirepoint at 2600 fps.

rickt300 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 25, 2007, 01:22:08 PM »

I disagree that the 35 Remington 200 grain RNCL bullets will just "Blow up" at 358 Winchester velocities as I used that bullet at 2500 fps out of my 358 this year to take three deer. All bullets exited and showed all the qualities of a controlled expanding bullet. I really don't see any need for the so called premium bullets at the velocities the 358 is capable of though a 180 grain Partition in 35 caliber seems pretty useful

coyotejoe · « **Reply #14 on:** January 28, 2007, 05:01:39 AM »

after reading the excellent article on .35 Remington loads I have to revise my opinion on the .35 caliber 180 grain bullets. I seems the Speer 180 FP did penetrate very well at .35 Rem speeds and even the Hornady spire point pistol bullet held togather better than I'd have expected. The Remington 200 grain round nose was outstanding. Now how they would do if loaded 400fps faster in a .358 is still subject to question, but for the .35 Remington with top handloads I'll go with the 200 grain core-lokt or the 180 Speer.

tanoose · « **Reply #15 on:** January 29, 2007, 04:52:05 PM »

I had nothing to do the other day so i cut in half three bullets . I have seen posted some guys doing this with other calibers. I cut the remington 200gr PSPCL, the Hornady 200gr SP and the Speer 220 gr FP The hornady and the speer had the same jacket thickness and the remington had the thickest jacket . Very noticable. I think for sure now that i will use the remington 200grain bullets . Its just a matter of which one my rifle favors . The PSPCL or the RNSPCL

358Win · « **Reply #16 on:** January 30, 2007, 07:47:27 PM »

The 358 Winchester in the BLR in my favorite rifle of all time. It does the job on big game from Antelope to Grizzly Bear with stunning results. I am a big fan of the 358 Winchester, the 35 Whelen, the 350 Rem. Mag, and my own wildcat the 35 Short Newton based on the new 375 Ruger case cut back to 57mm in length and necked down to 35 caliber. See it at http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/ai.cgi?sn=fpleCLBEpq&catid=529

I like to stick to just two loads. A small game load that uses the same 140 grain soft point that I use in my 357 Magnum revolver. In the 358 Winchester I like to send this out at 1,800 to 1,900 fps. This is great to fill the pot with small game on long backpacking trips. See http://www.kifaru.net/hunt_prod.htm for info on packs with the GunBearer System which makes carrying a rifle into the far, far backcountry and easily doable thing. In the 358 Winchester, I'd love to have a bullet with a Sectional Density greater than 0.300, which would weigh 270 grains. There are actually 3 bullets greater than this weight that I'm aware of the Swift 280 grain A-Frame and the Woodleigh 310 grain in both solid and softpoint with the same Ballistic Coefficient. But the 358 Winchester doesn't have quite enough powder capacity to get these up to my minimum desired velocity of 2,300 fps. At first blush I thought why not a 250 grain. There are several good ones including the Hornady, the Nosler, the Swift, the Woodleigh, the Speer, etc. But while you can get very close to the optimum velocity range of 2,375 to 2,425 it really strains things. So for an excellent penetrator with the length of a bullet with a higher sectional density the 225 grain Barnes Triple-X gets the nod in the 358 Winchester. This one can be driven at 2,375 fps quite easily with Accurate Arms 2520. 47.0 grains should do the trick.

The optimum velocity of a high sectional density rifle bullet has been known for a very long time. At least since 1905 when the 9.3x62mm Mauser came out and brought peace of mind and exceptional performance on everything from Elephant, Rhino, Hippo, Lion, Cape Buffalo, Leopard on down to Sable, Kudu, clear down to Dik-Dik at a level of recoil that made excellent marksmanship doable for the average African Farmer. This cartridge launched a 286 grain softpoint or solid at 2,350 fps. There is still a bit of minor debate on the speed required to make the sort of explosive wound channels that bring the big cats down swiftly. But the concensus is that is is somewhere between 2,200 fps and 2,250 fps. So the 9.3x62mm made the grade to at least 50 yards and out to 110 yards for those who feel that the 2,200 fps number is enough. As for Elephant so long as you aren't chasing wounded ones into the jesse, which really calls for a 505 Gibbs or something of that nature, the general concensus is that the 9.3x62mm and the 375 H&H both drilled about the same size hole all the way through and were equals at putting Elephant down for the count. The only observation being that the 375 does so with considerably more recoil and wastes an extra 150 fps on the countryside after exit. One should note that quite a large number of the folks who reload in Africa download the 375 to throw a 300 grain at 2,375 to 2,400.

I read an article in a gun magazine awhile back where the author's thesis was that 2,700 fps is the optimum velocity. Given the above plus the ballistics of Holland & Hollands two new rounds:
the 400 H&H throws a 400 grain 0.411 diameter bullet with a sectional density of 0.338 at 2,375 fps; the 465 H&H throws a 480 grain 0.468 diameter bullet with a sectional density of 0.313 at a velocity of 2,375 fps. Given the long history in practical African experience with the 9.3x62mm, the 375 H&H, and the new 400 H&H, and the new 465 H&H. I'm going to stand pat that the optimum velocity of a big game rifle is between 2,300 fps and 2,500 fps with peak performance in the 2,375 to 2,400 fps range.

Note that with bullets of equal Ballistic Coefficient and a 200 yard zero: The 2,700 fps load is 2 inches high at 110 yards and 8.6 inches down at 300 yards. The 2,400 fps load is 2.8 inches high at 110 yards, and 11.4 inches down at 300 yards. In the field shooter error almost completely eliminates these subtle differences in trajectory. So I vote for the less recoil, muzzle blast, muzzle flash, and lower noise of the 2,400 fps versions.

handirifle · « **Reply #17 on:** February 04, 2007, 03:14:27 PM »

Quote from: coyotejoe on January 25, 2007, 04:33:51 AM

Handirifle, I think you misunderstood the .303 post. He referred to the 303 Savage, not 303 British. 303 Savage is just a 30/30 with 190 grain bullet, although they are not interchangeable and actually the 30/30 shows slightly more muzzle energy.

You are right, I've never heard of the 303 Savage. Thanks for the correction.

Devy55 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2007, 12:39:57 PM »

I have a 35 Whelen and am very happy with it's performance on all medium to large game. It is easily capable of all North American game, plus African game as well.

Here is a post that I started, which includes a response from a JJHACK who is a professional hunter and guide.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,101254.msg1098270037.html#msg1098270037

Ratltrap · « **Reply #19 on:** February 06, 2007, 02:31:24 PM »

Quote from: tanoose on January 13, 2007, 05:10:57 AM

While i am talking about the .358 Winchester the same could be asked about the 35 Whelen. Just about every article or post i read about the 358 win, reccommends the 180 or 200 grain bullets for deer and they reccommend you go to the 250 grain bullets for elk moose etc.Why? when the 180 grain bullet in the 358 winchester moves at 2700-2800 fps. This is the same velocity the 180 grain bullets in the 30/06 is moving at . And almost always the the 180 grain buller in the 30/06 is reccommended over the 200 and 220 grain bullets.And actually for me and many others wouldn't the 180 and 200 grain bulllets be a better choice over the 250 if you where using a lever, pump, or semi-auto , with a magazine that restricted you to a certain C.O.L. Please give me your thoughts on what i have just said. Thanks Tanoose

I don't know how much this applies, but when I was loading 158 gr. jacketed bullets for plinking with my Whelen, when I got past about 2300 fps. the bullets started keyholing. I can't recall what the twist rate of that barrel is, but that probably makes some difference as well. I'm no ballistician, but that told me that at least those particualr bullets weren't very stable at that velocity. Haven't tried 180s for hunting, but I've wondered how stable the 180s would be at higher velocities and whether they might tumble in tissue rather than penetrating.

358Win · « **Reply #20 on:** February 09, 2007, 03:05:44 PM »

The 358 Winchester or the 35 Whelen are both very efficient. The 358 Win is my preference mostly because it is a little easier on the shoulder = translation a lot easier to hit the 10 ring or the correct spot on the game. The 9x57mm Mauser did wonderful duty in Africa for all of the first half of the 20th Century. While it wasn't as useful for Elephant or Buff as the 9.3x62mm; iIt was a prime pot filler on many safari's. The ballistics of the 9x57mm was a 245-grain round-nosed bullet (available as a solid or a soft-nose) at 2150 feet per second. John Taylor's comments on the cartridge are interesting: "For any game animals up to but not including the thick-skinned, heavy animals the 9mm Mauser was wonderfully effective, proving yet again the effectiveness of larger calibre bullets of good sectional density at moderate speed."

Considering that the 358 Win can throw a 250 grain at 2,350 fps; I'd say that for anything in North America the power is there for everything excepting excepting backup on a previously wounded Grizzly in the 1000 pounds plus range. As the client it would be fine for Grizzly also at any range at which impact velocity is above 2,250 fps. This brings up the issue of high velocity and shock/explosive wounds. This occurs at speeds way, way less than is generally assumed by the average American. A few notes from the design team that worked up the 375H&H:" Meanwhile, the design team at Holland & Holland were listening and learning. A velocity of at least 2150fps and a sectional density of at least .300 was required for satisfactory penetration on large game. High velocity was a distinct bonus in ensuring hits at unknown range, and that impact velocities of over 2250 fps produced explosive wounds, and often lightning quick kills."

It is also quite interesting to note that both of H&H's new rounds the 400H&H which shoots a 400 grain(SD 0.338) and the 465H&H which shoots 480 grain (SD 0.313) are both designed to produce what I and a few others would consider to be the optimal velocity of a hunting rifle cartridge at 2,375 fps. If one were going to be in situations where a large number of 250 yards shots would be taken one could then wish for the 2,500 fps of the original 375 H&H 300 grain(SD 0.305). Anything faster than that has numerous problems: bullet performance gets tricky, penetration becomes unpredictable, recoil increases and field accuracy degrades proportionally.

Cartridge design should be done with the key thought of drilling a hole of the proper diameter for the game intended with complete penetration or just under the skin on the far side. These objectives are best achieved with bullets with a sectional density of 0.275 to 0.325 with preference for > 0.300. These bullets should generally be started at a speed between 2,250 fps and 2,450 fps. Less reduces performance, more is a waste and usually reduces the shooters field accuracy.

These of course are my opinions and only my opinions and will be roundly denounced by those with differing experience. But to those who think that a 358 Win loaded to 2,350 fps with a 250 grain bullet is a supreme North American All-Round Cartridge, my cheers are with you!!!

GradyL41 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 10, 2007, 06:12:19 AM »

I have been hunting withe various .358 win since the late 70's -- I really like the 200 grain remington but I have had several --usually at long range 250 or so stay in the chest cavity of a deer--which is fine but about two years ago I shot a large doe at 245 long steps - and lost her --I do not know if the bullet penciled through or expanded and stopped (the farmer found her)-- anyway most of my rounds use the 225 Seirra -- it will always exit and shoots well-- So personally I am leary of the 200 Remington --do not know much about the 200 Hor. bullet as to the 250 they shoot very well and I actually got 2460 out of mine one time and then I pulled the rest as that hast to be 2 hot -- I may try them this year but - I usually talk my self out of it becasue the 225 has a little more point blank and kills well -- for me it is 220 speer,or the 225BTSP --then I would consider the 200 Remington or Hornady

Lone Star · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2007, 12:46:01 PM »

It would be most helpful if posters would take the time to identify the bullets they are talking about. There are two Remington 200-grrain bullets and two Hornady 200-grainers. There are significant differences in construction between their respective roundnose and pointed bullets. Thanks.

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