WHAT BARREL & CALIBER FOR A 600 YARD HANDI SETUP + EBAY APOLOGY

[gstanfield]

For a max range of 600yds I would highly suggest the 243 bull with the heaviest, most accurate bullets you can get it to shoot. For ranges beyond 600, out to 1000 I'd say you cannot do better than the 26" 280.

With that said, my last handi, bought with the intent of long range shooting was a 25-06. To me it fits right between the two and is the best medium bore for this big bore guy.

George

[C. Davis]

There is probably an obvious answer to this question, but why don't NEF just cut the .243 to a 1:8 twist to make it less finicky with the longer, heavier bullets?

C. Davis

[quickdtoo]

There is probably an obvious answer to this question, but why don't NEF just cut the .243 to a 1:8 twist to make it less finicky with the longer, heavier bullets?

C. Davis

Probably the same reason they still overbore the 44mag and are offering it and the 444Marlin with the old 1:38" twist rate.

Tim

[captdp]

I built my long range, up to 400yd max on game, in 280. My other choice was a 308. I opted for the 280 because it shoos a little flatter. This helps when estimating, or for that matter using a range finder, at longer ranges. If I were shooting at set ranges it would be a 308, espicialy if I didn't reload. capt david

[Mac11700]

Isn't the good old 308 the cartridge to beat for long range target shooting.

Honestly...NO...While many a match has been won with it...most of the guys shooting 600 yards and longer are using a 6mm variant..or a 6.5 MM variant...Less recoil...Less fatigue..Less wind drift...Under 600 yards...but over 300...the 6mm BR/30 BR reign supreme...

Mac

[Mac11700]

There is probably an obvious answer to this question, but why don't NEF just cut the .243 to a 1:8 twist to make it less finicky with the longer, heavier bullets?

C. Davis

Probably the same reason they still overbore the 44mag and are offering it and the 444Marlin with the old 1:38" twist rate.

Tim

 

A 1:8 would rock...but unfortunately...the "Old Boys Club" that could make a sensible decision at Marlin don't really care...Their preference is to listen to the same morons who told them "No one really needed longer barrels...and we can charge more and buy shorter blanks and make more money"..."Why stock all those different color laminates when 2 or is all we need...We can stock less...and charge them more...and make more money" " Why stock those steel forearm spacers and trigger guards..plastic is good enough for them...we can charge more...and make even more money " Why make all those combination guns...we can make them buy more complete rifles and shotguns that way...and make more money...No one really likes them anyway." Why make all those different calibers...don't they all do the same thing...we don't have to replace all those reamers and stamping machine dies as they wear out...charge more...and make more money...

I would love to stand at that table and tell them to fire their advisers...and start listening to their real customers...Maybe we should get a bunch of guys together...and have a march on the company headquarters...

Mac

[quickdtoo]

Well said, Mac!!! It sure makes ya wonder what in the world they're thinking sometimes, or if they really are!!

Tim

[MSP Ret]

I am still trying to figure out this .223 twist thing. I am happy with the 1:12 twist becuase the biggest thing I hunt with my .223's are coyotes. H&R/NEF went to 1:9 so the barrels would stabilze heavier bullets at the request of customers (?) and they did not seem to shoot heavier bullets any better, why not? Now I hear they went back to 1:12 for all .223 barrels. Thats fine with me but why did it (1:9 twist) not have any influence on how heavier bullets grouped with the faster twist? And if they were all set up for 1:9 why go back to 1:12, no customer requested it? I have my 1:12 that I like, who is making these decisions and why are they making them. Why don't they make a .44 barrel that is bored correctly? They will not do things they should or customers want but they do things no one asks for....<><....

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,109200.0.html

P.S. no sour grapes, I love these fine little reasonably priced guns and Customer Service is the best, they keep me coming back....

[just bill]

Interesting from a business point of view.  As much as the avid Handi shooters would appreciate all that, I for one can see why they don't do it from a business p.o.v.  Keep things simple and costs down.  Lets face it, these are surely "price" purchased guns NEF/Marlin knows this, and they have to make a profit.

Rifle twists or "better", proper rifle twists that fuction I can understand such as the .223 and whats up with the Hornets 1/12 ?  But I for one don't know their rifle barrel process completely.  I understand Marlin now makes them all (NEF told me that recently per phone conversation) and they are button rifled and rumor from this board, I have read micro groove rifling but, NEF did not state that to me.

What suprises me is the lack of after market replacements.  There are a ton of these value rifles sold.  I could see more aftermarket things like stocks,trigger guards & shoes,bedded forearms,smithing,etc.  I look for NEF to stay lean, fat free and effeciant keeping prices down.................they have to.  Look at the Stevens 200 series now there is a pretty darn good value rifle too, maybe better?  And they shoot right from the box.  NEF needs to keep doing what they do best............"low cost".  We just need more aftermarket companys.

[Swampman]

"Isn't the good old 308 the cartridge to beat for long range target shooting."

Nearly impossible.....

[Mac11700]

I understand Marlin now makes them all (NEF told me that recently per phone conversation) and they are button rifled and rumor from this board, I have read micro groove rifling but, NEF did not state that to me.

The barrels are made in-house by NEF...and they are not micro-grooved...but a better word for it might be ...shallow grooved.. that's for sure... Go pick up a real Marlin micro groove barrel and compare the 2...you will see the difference..immediately...

Swampy...While the 308 is a very capable cartridge...that has seen extensive use in the sport and has dominated for a long time... It isn't in the same league going up against the basic  6.5mm x 308 shaped cartridge.... The 308 is no longer the preferred caliber to use for any serious sanctioned bench rest matches....Perhaps for some in the various Palma matches using the M1 or military type weapons or even in Olympic matches using Biathlon stocked rifles like the Tika 695 with the diopter style open sites.....but even there...with the virtues of the 6mm and the 6.5 mm bullets wind bucking abilities... have basically taken completely over.With todays bullets and powders...not to mention the high grade barrels being used they are the ones to beat .....The 308 used to be the top seed...but alas.... no longer is...Getting a Handi in 308 to shoot match capable in any of it's present issued forms...let's see...how was it put to me...A real exercise in futility........Sorry....I hate to be the bearer of such bad news to you...knowing full well how much you like the caliber...

Mac

[Swampman]

Current Marlin production has "Ballard" rifling I believe.

[gstanfield]

Mac, you put together that march on headquarters and I'll be there with you. Imagine theri faces if a group of 1,000 hndi owners marched in, threw down a list of grievences and a list of wants and marched back out ther door. I'll bet we would see at least a few of our dreams come true

Oh well, I can dream can't I?

George

[safetysheriff]

here's probably a viable option to a harder-kicking .280 Rem' Handi' ...... but i only know of one match-grade projectile for it.    Sierra makes a 135 gr' bthp match in .277 diameter.   it is no trick, i would think, to get 3000 fps from a 22" barrel with a .270 Win' cartridge launching that bullet.

its ballistic co-efficient is .488.     the Lee Shooter program shows it still doing 1924fps at 600 yds' if muzzle velocity is 3000 fps.    at 1000 yds it is still Easily SuperSonic doing 1393 fps!

years ago the USMC seriously considered using the .270 Win' for their snipers in Viet Nam with those old Model 70 Winchesters.   they gave up on the idea because it wasn't a NATO round.     is it any surprise, however, that the .223 Rem' has been replaced with the 6.8 SPC which fires a .277 diameter bullet just like the .270 Win?

the .280 Rem' is something of a bigger hammer; but the lesser recoil of the .270 and its lesser barrel time is worthy of consideration when shooting a Handi'........and many other rifles of 22" to 24" barrel length.

ss'   

[just bill]

I understand Marlin now makes them all (NEF told me that recently per phone conversation) and they are button rifled and rumor from this board, I have read micro groove rifling but, NEF did not state that to me.

The barrels are made in-house by NEF...and they are not micro-grooved...but a better word for it might be ...shallow grooved.. that's for sure... Go pick up a real Marlin micro groove barrel and compare the 2...you will see the difference..immediately...

Maybe so, but a tech at NEF about 3 days ago told me that "the barrel manufacturing has been nearly all consolidated to the Marlin facilty to date".

[MSP Ret]

we really can't get a straight answer from them can we, the answer all depends on who you ask. I am sure glad Marlin did not take over Customer Service, those people there are the ones that are making that place work....<><....

[cheatermk3]

I STILL don't know what the target for this shoot will be--what is a "(MR )" target?

It makes a helluva difference because I don't believe you need a match grade bullet to hit the bull at 600 if it's a 10-inch circle., like in a steel plate type match where you shoot for score and any hit that rings or knocks over ( or whatever) counts.

Besides, the question was posed by a guy who says that he will not be reloading his own.

Whatever happened to that woman (forgot her name) whos posted here, who was asking for input from us about a year or so ago?  Wasn't it she who got the extractors going??

Remember all the hoopla about tha??

What all of us here needto remember is that the vast majority of NEF and H&R firearms are not purchased by "aficionados", if you will, like us, but by folks on a budget who get them as a first rifle or shotgun for their kid. 

JMHO, I have no sales figures to back that up.

[Swampman]

"years ago the USMC seriously considered using the .270 Win' for their snipers in Viet Nam with those old Model 70 Winchesters.   they gave up on the idea because it wasn't a NATO round."

If I remember correctly, they gave up because the .270 isn't nearly as accurate as the .308 or the .30-06. 

[hellacatcher]

Cheatermk3 I belive the woman's name was Diana Lynch.

[MSP Ret]

so we have her to blame for the extractors? I really don't think it's fair to blame her if she is not here to defend herself, especially if she has been ill, I really hope she is feeling better, it would be nice if she would post again...<><....

[cheatermk3]

I'm not blaming anyone, certainly not Diana (thank you hellacatcher). 

I brought it up to point out that nothing the factory does will please everyone; whatever the logic or "decision-making framework" they use to make decisions there will of course be tied to the bottom line.  We also asked for and got the  7.62 x 39.  I believe the jury is still out on the extractor, gen 2, and it seems the 7.62x39 is in peril.  The 1/9 twist 223 also seems not to have been such a good idea after all.  The problem with that one may be the lack of ammo loaded with bullets that can benefit from the faster twist. 

The 1/9 is not fast enough to stabilize the heavier bullets (70 grains and up), anything faster like 1/7 or -8 would most likely result in varmint-type bullets coming apart inside of 50 yards or so; there are 62 and 64 grain bullets that will work in the 1-in-12.  Point here being that for 99% of shooters the 55 and 50 grain bullets are all that get shot out of these rifles anyway. 

Ya gotta remember, it's not enough for a company to make a profit, there has to be a big enough profit to justify the use of capital assets and investments; or else the money/assets get put where they think they can/will get the necessary return.

I'm hoping that the results do not backfire on Diana and/or on the folks here, as far as  being a source  or driver (however slightly or greatly) of
suggestions that actually get realized in the product line at NEF.

[JKump]

I am one of those guys in the 308 camp.  Just get a 308 bull barrel, load it with a good 165 grain match grade bullet and you will be fine.  I would not feel "outgunned" with my 308 survivor, heck, in one article I was reading on sniper rifles, the NEF 308 survivor was mentioned as a good single shot sniper rifle.

[zermatt7]

________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 I STILL don't know what the target for this shoot will be--what is a "(MR )" target?
It makes a helluva difference because I don't believe you need a match grade bullet to hit the bull at 600 if it's a 10-inch circle., like in a steel plate type match where you shoot for score and any hit that rings or knocks over ( or whatever) counts.
Besides, the question was posed by a guy who says that he will not be reloading his own.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I dont know what an "MR" Target is either...and since the guy who invited me hasnt emailed me with an answer to to that question yet...Its somewhere btween the size of an egg and...say, a volkswagon...and it wont make a helluva difference because as I said in the first post , I want to use this as practice for hunting...( No I dont plan on shooting game at 600 yards )...I dont want to set up a gun to try and win the thing...just have fun...I know another guy who shoots these and he's an ex sniper and uses custom built guns...(.243 WSSM) I plan on using a handi so posed the Q. in the handi forum...
If I wanted to try and win the the thing I'd go with Quicks advice and get a 280...or just go buy a Savage .308 tactical etc...

As it stands I'm looking for .243 24" ultra barrel that I'll probably put a mannlicher forend on and an ultra butt stock with a Sims pad added to it.

Mac has given me a 100% money back guarantee that this will be a good set up !!! 
Hey Mac, do you want that .243 bull in stainless or fluted ?

thanks again for all the replies and info...especially the constructive ones 
 

[Mac11700]

Either the 24" Bull barrel or the 24" Fluted...Either way with good hand loads you'll have a great shooting rig...The 100% guarantee is for the barrel not a complete rifle..but I know I won't be getting it from you once you got dialed in..and if you don't ...I'm quite sure my son will

Mac

[flatwoods]

I happen to have a .243 Ultra and it won't group(at 100 yds} less that 4 inches with any bullets that I have tried other than the 85 grainers of various manufacturers.  I, as have a number of others. would like to shoot the 95 or 100 's but deisre tighter groups. Maybe we have had the unfortunate luck of getting barrels of poorer quality that just happen to have a heavy bullet spread! The same loads that shoot loose in the ultra do fine in a remington of ruger.

[zermatt7]

Here's an expanation of   the "MR" target is thats used in the 600 yard matches I posted about...It may be called something else in different parts of the country 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MR-1: Mid-Range – 1 target. This is the standard 600yd slow-fire Prone target used in full-distance Across-The-Course matches, many Prone matches, etc. The MR-1 target has a 6” (or 1 MOA) X-ring, 12” 10-ring, and the black extends out to the 7-ring and is 36” in diameter. The whole target face is approximately 6’ square.

It is easy to see from 600, just make sure you can read the number boards and shoot YOUR assigned target, as you get no points for hits on your neighbor's!

In general, the ten ring is 2 MOA on all highpower targets.

[cheatermk3]

Thank you--I was curious what you would be shooting at. 

Will you be allowed a spotter?? It would be very helpful to have someone to call your shots.  The 243 with whatever bullet it shoots well will probably do just fine.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll have fun!