Author Topic: Ain't it the truth........ (Read 3056 times)

dukkillr · « **Reply #30 on:** January 19, 2007, 04:40:39 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on January 19, 2007, 03:37:01 AM

1] this country was founded on democratic principles to ensure the individual freedom and liberty from government AND other influences, and said to be for the people and by the people. It was not founded for the purpose of ensuring profits, promotion of elitism, and to evolve into corporatocracy at the people's expense.

If this isn't revisionist history I don't know what is. This country was founded to include slavery! Was that to avoid elitism?

Who cares who coined the phrase capitalism? You seem to imply that since it was coined by a "impoverished rabbi philosopher in a Paris walkup" that the concept is somehow invalid. Jesus spent much of his life and an impoverished philosopher. Does that make him or his ideas wrong?

I do not support illegal immigration. Never have, never will. It's amazing that you simply declare I do. Capitalism can exist in subcultures, it can exist in a small city state. It can exist in a world without borders. Supporting capitalism does not mean you support open borders. Indeed I'm convinced the unskilled/semi-skilled laborers you're so adamently and blindly supporting would benefit with a truly closed border.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #31 on:** January 19, 2007, 05:25:33 AM »

I'm gonna throw the BS flag on a lot of these "poor hard working folks abused by the big bad companies until the union showed up on its white horse" stories.
One case, if a company fired a woman, in order to cheat her out of her retirement, shortly before her retirement, even a bad lawyer could have sued the p*** out of them and she would have ended up as CEO.
TM, you have quite a knack of restructuring reality to suit your needs of the moment.

You say this country was founded to ensure freedom. Well, it does. You're free to stay in school, learn a trade or a profession, work hard and live the good life. Or, if that's your bag, you're free to sit around and whine 'cause others have more than you and you think they are obligated to give you some of theirs. Just like you have no guarentee of happiness but you have the right to pursue the hell out of it.

dukkillr · « **Reply #32 on:** January 19, 2007, 05:44:17 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on January 19, 2007, 05:29:43 AM

Your support of legal immigration is admirable, but you conveniently bypass the main point of my diatribe and that is connecting the dots between corporatism [not capitalism] and illegal immigration and your tacit support of it and tacit support of globalism.

I bypassed it because it wasn't the reason I enter this debate. I entered this debate because you were declaring unions to be perfect and corporations to be evil. I attempted to point out that many, many forces were at work in the decline of organized labor, some of which are out of anyone's control. I never weighed in on immigration and their relationship to labor. To the extent that capitalism is in tension with closed borders, I support closed borders.

At some point you should realize that your assumptions about myself and others may be flawed. If you want to know how we feel just ask, don't tell and don't assume.

Beers · « **Reply #33 on:** January 19, 2007, 07:28:49 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on January 19, 2007, 02:48:42 AM

I will suggest that as time goes on you may find that what is OK now will be lacking for you and yours in the future and needs will arise for more funds than you have prepared for.

Wise words. I try to be prepared for the worst... We keep enough funds in a savings account to last at least 6 months... For all I know at some point down the road this store could go under, My wife could get laid off, I could wind up in a car accident and find myself unable to work for a while. You can never really be ready for anything tho... The only thing I'd like to get squared away and havent yet is money for my kids educations down the road... I truly hope that they won't be as stubborn and foolish as I was (and still am, in some ways)... I didn't get an education (not the kind that you get a diploma or degree for anyway....) and I manage anyway... But my life would likely be alot easier if I had. And I hope to give my kids every opportunity I can.

Casull · « **Reply #34 on:** January 19, 2007, 08:12:50 AM »

Not revisionist TM7? How about where you say that this country

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was not founded for the purpose of ensuring profits

. Well, you might have missed it, but the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution says "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation". Now, where you own private property, you have Capitalism. If I can own private property, then I can sell that property (or rent it or use it to create more property), and that is the definition of Capitalism.

Or TM7, how about your assertion that

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this country was founded on democratic principles to ensure the individual freedom and liberty from government AND other influences

. I would like you to point out to me that part of the Constitution which assures us freedom from "other influences". For that matter (and since I might have missed it), could you please point out to me where the term "fair" appears in the Constitution.

TM7, you seem to be operating under that all too common theory that pervades the left. That is, that economics is a "zero sum game". That for someone to make money or get ahead, that it must have been at the expense of someone else. You may be surprised to find out that profits can be generated with no evil taking place. Believe it or not, wealth can be created and not just stolen. The nice thing about this country is that anyone can succeed. There are no elitist barriers nor caste system. If someone has the drive and ability, and yes the stomach for risk, they can succeed.

And BTW, I do not support illegal immigration, but I am in favor of controlled legal immigration.

Casull · « **Reply #35 on:** January 19, 2007, 09:24:41 AM »

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Not where you have property is there capitalism....where you have a monetary system you have capitalism is more correct.

We're simply going to have to disagree here. As far as I know, every developed communist country had a monetary system, but not capitalism. Sure, a monetary system is an aid to a capitalist system, but it is not a requirement. I suppose you never heard of a barter system.

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Where does fair appear in the Constitution? Excuse me,,,isn't the whole premise and intent of the founding documents to assure a fair and equal opportunity at life?

I would say clearly not. The whole premise is to assure an equal "opportunity". The problem with talking about "fair" is that it is a completely subjective standard.

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You seem to be under the assumption that anyone not agreeing with you is from the left.

Not true. But does seem to be the case with you.

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I can assure you that from my perspective you are far closer to the left than I

Hahahahaha. Sorry, I almost choked on that one.

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When millionaireness Pelosi's brassier crew gets amnesty passed thru Congress and George signs it are you going to support that too?

Certainly not. And what do you mean by "too"?

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I totally disagree that there is no elitist barriers

If he were still around, a little old redneck fellow by the name of Sam Walton might disagree with you (I think I can say this being originally from the South). Or perhaps a college drop-out nerd by the name of Bill Gates (and, no I do not support his politics).

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this matters, but please don't tell me I am too leftist for you.

Casull · « **Reply #36 on:** January 19, 2007, 01:10:11 PM »

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Casull,,, your next to the last post cited the fifth admendment as evidence that capitalism is a guarranteed right even though most wealth in those days was thought in terms of owning real property not monies, and the doctrine of capitalism was invented later to justify and codify what economic elitist were doing to people and that it was really Okay. What the fifth admendment has been reduced to [along with the rest of the BoR] is highly indicative that my thesis of corporacratic elitist having everything their way is true and at the expense of citizens and fair play. [By the way, if you don't now have a sense of fairness or fair play than there is no hope that you ever will short of a miraculous epiphany.] I am of course referring to recent court decisions on emminent domain seizures, etc. THese court findings only support elitism. There is so much prove of this corporate elitism that all of Washington stinks of it...need more cause there is lots? There was one revolution to kick aristocrats out of this country and it may be time for another.
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Oh yes...you a far to the left of me and a progressive to boot. If you don't even recognize corporatocracy, elitism, and the structure of the welfare security state as expensed to the masses exist to wholey support corporatism [and I mean welfare for corporate entities and their adjuncts] and that this form of communism exist for the benifit of a select few than there is no hope for you as you blindly support this form of people's welfare for the select few...that is communism or certainly a form thereof.
. Corporatocracy is the merging of giant business into a faction contolling production, the monetary system, and government at the people's expense for the benifit of a select few, [also sometimes called fascism]...and this is the form communism manifest itself in the 20th century, and here; and you support this, even deem it constitutional cause fairness is not definable by some people,,,, and you call me a leftist!

HUH. I REPEAT, HUH.

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I am of course referring to recent court decisions on emminent domain seizures, etc. THese court findings only support elitism.

No, those decisions are not to support elitism, but rather to support the coffers of Bigger Government. They were not decided to help some "elite", but rather to increase the property taxes on those properties for the benefit of government.

As to the rest of your diatribe, I can only say "Huh". You seem so wrapped up in using words that (I am guessing) you don't think anyone will understand, that you conveniently ignore my, and others, arguments that clearly point out the frailties of your circuitous reasoning. Oh, and by the way, just because my sense of "fairness" does not mimic yours, does not mean that I do not have one. My sense of "fairness" includes requiring all to abide by the rules (laws) and to stand behind their agreements. However, my sense of fairness does not require an equality of outcome, only of opportunity. As I previously pointed out, what's "fair" is too subjective to run a society by, as witnessed by our differences with that concept.

SDS-GEN · « **Reply #37 on:** January 19, 2007, 01:46:24 PM »

Thought I'd throw in a couple of "for what its worth's". I lived in Moline IL most of my life, the home of the John Deere Corp. Office, also from this area Minneapolis Moline Tractors(gone), IH (Case/New Holland, closed up) Farmall(assumed byIH?), ALCOA, Ralston Purina, this list goes on and on, point I'm trying to make is unions built this community. Once upon a time, a few years ago, a customer of mine was a Deere exec. He told me that front loader buckets were being made in China for JD tractors (the foundaries are all closed down in the states) The steel was cut in China, shipped here and tack welded useing union labor(propapbly$10-$11/hour) then shipped back to China to have the seems welded. One bucket in three passed inspection when it arrived back in the states, the other two were shipped back to China to be reworked, and it was still cheaper than American labor.
Lane Evans (retired this year from congress) built his entire career on the unions, he always preached that he was for the American working man, during his reign tens of thousandsof union jobs left his district. Did the unions cause the demise of good wages in America? I doubt it, not by themselves anyway. Can a politician change things. Nope. I certainly don't know what the answer is, the union put food on my families plate for 30 years(Dad worked for the UAW at Deere)and I don't have anything against someone trying to make as much money as possible.
The good news is sooner or later those third world countries that have taken our jobs will get greedy and raise the rates, maybe by then we will have people in this country who would like to put in an honest days work and get an honest paycheck for it.

Casull · « **Reply #38 on:** January 20, 2007, 07:11:12 AM »

Okay TM7, let me see if I get this right. The more I support property rights and capitalism, the more leftist I am. And, the more you support limitations on property owners and socialist beliefs, the more rightist you are. It's a topsy turvy world, aint it. This woudl be hilarious except for the fact that I believe you actually believe this tripe.

dukkillr · « **Reply #39 on:** January 20, 2007, 07:20:51 AM »

At a certain point you have to figure out the cost/benefit analysis on "discussions" with TM7.

Casull · « **Reply #40 on:** January 20, 2007, 08:12:27 AM »

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At a certain point you have to figure out the cost/benefit analysis on "discussions" with TM7.

Dukkillr, you are right on the money. Anyway, my head was getting sore from banging it against the wall.

Brett · « **Reply #41 on:** January 20, 2007, 09:51:21 AM »

Quote from: dukkillr on January 20, 2007, 07:20:51 AM

At a certain point you have to figure out the cost/benefit analysis on "discussions" with TM7.

dukkillr, I think this is one of the best lines I've seen (or heard) in some time.

Tn Jim · « **Reply #42 on:** January 21, 2007, 09:56:47 AM »

I don't buy the "doing jobs Americans won't" crap!! Want proof? Watch the TV show "Dirty Jobs" and tell me how Mexicans you see! Just more liberal left wing propaganda to support their amnesty/open border crap!

Brett · « **Reply #43 on:** January 21, 2007, 10:51:59 AM »

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Oh... sorry were you talkin' to me TM7.

dukkillr · « **Reply #44 on:** January 21, 2007, 11:20:09 AM »

Quote from: Brett on January 21, 2007, 10:51:59 AM

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Oh... sorry were you talkin' to me TM7.

I like it. I'm tired of defending my own beliefs against what he declares my beliefs to be. Regardless of what I say, he's going to know more about my feelings than I do. It's not worth the energy, and we can all agree he's never going to consider another person's opinions anyway.

Brett · « **Reply #45 on:** January 22, 2007, 01:58:43 AM »

TM7 wrote:
",,,Oh really,,,then why don't you clearly state what your views are, or counter my thesis presented?"

No thanks TM7. I took Dukkillr's advise and did a little cost/benefit analysis and concluded I would derive far more benefit from continuing my nap.

Brett · « **Reply #46 on:** January 22, 2007, 02:50:27 AM »

Ah... who is the one slinging insults around here TM7?

Beers · « **Reply #47 on:** January 23, 2007, 06:42:01 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on January 22, 2007, 04:51:03 AM

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money

Then I guess we're lucky that's not happened yet...

But we're getting closer w/ the almighty credit card being so ubiquitous, and the rampant usury that entails...

beemanbeme · « **Reply #48 on:** January 23, 2007, 12:22:45 PM »

You're saying OUR mortage rates are set by the bank of London??? That's absurd. But then................................

Beers · « **Reply #49 on:** January 23, 2007, 01:28:42 PM »

Well, fortunately, the Federal Reserve Bank does not issue currency... The Department of the Treasury does that, and the Bureau of Engraving and Printing takes care of printing it.

As far as the Bank of London setting mortgage interest rates... That's pure BS, the Federal Reserve Bank does that, which by the way is NOT a private trust, it was founded in 1913 by Congress and It's board members are appointed by the President...

If you ever decide that actual facts might be preferable to made up crap you can find alot of interesting information regarding the Federal Reserve here:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/

Casull · « **Reply #50 on:** January 23, 2007, 01:37:51 PM »

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Well, fortunately, the Federal Reserve Bank does not issue currency... The Department of the Treasury does that, and the Bureau of Engraving and Printing takes care of printing it.

As far as the Bank of London setting mortgage interest rates... That's pure BS, the Federal Reserve Bank does that, which by the way is NOT a private trust, it was founded in 1913 by Congress and It's board members are appointed by the President...

If you ever decide that actual facts might be preferable to made up crap you can find alot of interesting information regarding the Federal Reserve here:

Nice. But, Beers, when are you going to learn that TM7 can't be bothered with little things like facts, they get in the way of his theories.

dukkillr · « **Reply #51 on:** January 23, 2007, 01:51:08 PM »

Quote from: Casull on January 23, 2007, 01:37:51 PM

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Well, fortunately, the Federal Reserve Bank does not issue currency... The Department of the Treasury does that, and the Bureau of Engraving and Printing takes care of printing it.

As far as the Bank of London setting mortgage interest rates... That's pure BS, the Federal Reserve Bank does that, which by the way is NOT a private trust, it was founded in 1913 by Congress and It's board members are appointed by the President...

If you ever decide that actual facts might be preferable to made up crap you can find alot of interesting information regarding the Federal Reserve here:

Nice. But, Beers, when are you going to learn that TM7 can't be bothered with little things like facts, they get in the way of his theories.

Boy you guys really did it this time. Be ready for a long post using lots of quotes taken out of context, words that aren't quite real, and theories that you can only find on crazy fringe sites. Shoulda taken my advice and done the cost benefit analysis thing.

Beers · « **Reply #52 on:** January 23, 2007, 02:03:04 PM »

I'm not concerned w/ convincing him, I just wanted to point that out before someone who didn't know any better came along and read that crap, possibly mistaking him for a credible source of information.

Casull · « **Reply #53 on:** January 23, 2007, 02:11:14 PM »

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Boy you guys really did it this time. Be ready for a long post using lots of quotes taken out of context, words that aren't quite real, and theories that you can only find on crazy fringe sites. Shoulda taken my advice and done the cost benefit analysis thing.

dukkillr, I know you're right, deep down I really do. Sometimes I just can't help myself.