Author Topic: Ain't it the truth........ (Read 3057 times)

rockbilly · « **on:** January 16, 2007, 08:24:53 AM »

"AIN'T IT THE TRUTH!!?
Joe Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6am.

While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG).

He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA).

After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA)he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today.

After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) filled it with GAS from Saudi

Arabia and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB.

At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day checking his Computer (Made In Malaysia), Joe decided to relax for a while.

He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE...France !!!) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in ...

A M E R I C A

jh45gun · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2007, 08:07:33 PM »

Yep that about covers it. There is very little "Made In America" anymore. I still say the unions priced them selves right out of work and for those who will argue that the bottom line is even if you disagree with that there is little factory work here in the US anymore. I read over 20 years ago that the US was going to be a "Information Society" and most blue collar jobs were going to be sent elsewhere. I guess they were right.

williamlayton · « **Reply #2 on:** January 17, 2007, 12:43:36 AM »

There is another way to view this.
The unions did demand a cut of the profits.
The boys that own have found another source of cheap labor putting more money in their pockets.
Now if those in the money want to produce here and still line thier pockets the cost is prohibitive.
On the other hand if they wanted to produce here and become wealthy--ignoring greed--We could do it as well or better and all would profit.
Greed is the driving force--not the unions, well, IMO.
Blessings

Hairtrigger · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2007, 01:28:19 AM »

You forgot to add he shopped at >>> (wally world, Target, K mart ect) to get good buys on all of his imported stuff while his union buddy went to work and sat in the breakroon playing cards for 6 hours per shift

Savage .250 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2007, 01:58:38 AM »

Just to add a little something to what WilliamLayton said........ Greed may be the drivivg froce but it`s
fostered by Capitalism, IMO.

magooch · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2007, 03:08:16 AM »

Yeah, like communism is the answer?

gypsyman · « **Reply #6 on:** January 17, 2007, 06:29:09 AM »

[

We tried peace-It didn't work-Remember (12-7-41)-(9-11-01)

With big business going overseas for labor, there is no law to stop that. What should be done, is an import tax on anything coming into this country. Especially, if it use to be manufactured here. We can't compete with country's that don't have to abide by emission standards, limited work hours and safety rules, or minumum wage laws. I don't see the unions doing much to stop this, so their as much to blame, as the company's themselves. Here in the Toledo area, company executive's have given themselve's MAJOR bonus's, after workers agreed to take lower wages. 60-70 years ago, there was bloodshed and riots in this area when company's and union's had it out. Hate to say it, but I think with world situtation being what it is, me thinks it's quite possible to happen again. gypsyman

rockbilly · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2007, 10:06:43 AM »

I agree wholeheartedly, and I think a lot of the anger will be vented on the illegals that have come in, and taken jobs at a lower wage, and put Americans out of work. And in doing so, they have placing additional burdens on the out of work American in the form of higher taxes to pay for the "free" services the goverment provides the illegal.

I am keeping my powder dry!

williamlayton · « **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2007, 01:22:33 PM »

Capitialism did not foster greed.
Greed is fostered in the heart of man.
I would disagree that a person has to be greedy to be a capitialist.
A capitaliast does require freedom and his freedom is dependant on the populace.
Greed has no place in any society as does not a welfare state. Both are counter productive and end in ruin.
Blessings

beemanbeme · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2007, 04:30:45 PM »

I don't agree that illegals are taking jobs from Americans. There are too many entitlements in the USA. The illegals are taking jobs that the Americans are too lazy or think they're too good to do.

I was in Austin, TX. A gang of mexicans (illegals or otherwise) were black topping a road. 110degs. Try to get a crew of our home grown droolers to do that. And puleeez don't tell me if they paid a good wage, the Americans would jump all over the work. That's BS, besides how much knowledge and training does it take to operate a shovel??

I once said, here in Wild and Wonderful West Virginia( motto: (I didn't drop out of school until the 6th grade, you can't expect me to work for minimun wage) what is considered a good job is a union job, from which you can't be fired regardless of work ethics, for which you have no training nor skill, and which pays you about three times what you're worth.

Heavy C · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2007, 04:43:24 PM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on January 17, 2007, 04:30:45 PM

I don't agree that illegals are taking jobs from Americans. There are too many entitlements in the USA. The illegals are taking jobs that the Americans are too lazy or think they're too good to do.

I was in Austin, TX. A gang of mexicans (illegals or otherwise) were black topping a road. 110degs. Try to get a crew of our home grown droolers to do that. And puleeez don't tell me if they paid a good wage, the Americans would jump all over the work. That's BS, besides how much knowledge and training does it take to operate a shovel??

I once said, here in Wild and Wonderful West Virginia( motto: (I didn't drop out of school until the 6th grade, you can't expect me to work for minimun wage) what is considered a good job is a union job, from which you can't be fired regardless of work ethics, for which you have no training nor skill, and which pays you about three times what you're worth.

You beat me to the punch. It's funny how we always come back to the illegals. Living in Texas I see it every day. There are lot's of want ads, but no one wants to do that job or it doesn't pay enough. I've seen people lose their behind because they didn't want to do that job. In the meantime their family is struggling and everything they own is being repoe'd!

Casull · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2007, 08:15:47 PM »

At the risk of being tarred and feathered, I say that a little greed is a good thing. It's what creates risk takers. Those that take the risks are entitled to the spoils (as often as not these same risk takers lose - look at the failure rate of new businesses). Yes, of course there are some that take it too far, but by the same token, there are an awful lot of American workers whose main concern is the weekend. I believe that the unions have priced many out of their jobs. I would say that for every overly greedy business owner, there are at least a hundred workers who want to do as little as possible and get as much as possible Can't say that I truly blame them (well, yes I guess I can), but when that attitude ends up sending their jobs overseas, they have to accept some of the blame.

williamlayton · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2007, 12:03:07 AM »

I did not experience the same attitude as you--concerning folks who did not want too work--when I was in the labor force.
I was close to a well known and very rich oilman when I was younger. His reason for being was not the money--though he enjoyed it--it was the pleasure of making something work.
Perhaps we are talking around this subject.
I am not thinking of company owners. I am thinking of large company managers. those folks whose sole reason for being is greed--personal greed and they do not own the company. I have been all too close to a number of these folks and they are very scary.
I have a rela problem with a person who has a $200,000,000 by-out offered to him because he is doing a bad job and is in need of being fired. This is not treating either the investors or the company's money with respect.
Blessings

gypsyman · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2007, 04:23:18 AM »

Let me say this. First off, I'm not pro or con union. I've pretty much been self employed my whole life. I worked for my parents,growing up, in a ma-pa beer and wine carry-out. When the beer drivers went out on strike, we honored their line's, and went out of town to pick up our beer. This was in the '60's. Early '70's, the beer distributers in all the sorrounding area's, the drivers went on stike. So to stay in business, my dad and I had to cross picket lines, and pick up beer. Our building got fire bombed. Luckily, just an old wooden overhead door got tourched.Jump up to just a couple of years ago,2003 or 2004. The drivers for the Budweiser distributers were on stike. Now it's been over 20 years since I was in the beer business, so it really doesn't affect me what they do. BUT, the Teamsters, who drive the semi's from the brewery in Columbus, crossed the picket lines, to deliver into the warehouse. Seems to me, if the Longshoreman, that worked the docks, that unload all the imported stuff, had any stone's, they could strike, have a work slow down, something. But, me thinks, their makeing so much money, they don't care what's happening to the rest of their union brothers in this country, or to the rest of the country itself. We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!! Remember (12/7/41)--(9/11/01) gypsyman

Casull · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2007, 05:03:08 AM »

TM7, you're absolutely right. I don't know what I was thinking, trying to spread the blame around like that between some businesses and some workers. But I see the light, capitalism is bad, employers are bad, the rich are evil and the unions are just doing God's work. And, I was absolutely wrong, not a single union has ever priced a single worker out of a job. My humble apologies, and may Karl Marx have mercy on my soul.

dukkillr · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2007, 05:31:26 AM »

Quote from: Casull on January 18, 2007, 05:03:08 AM

TM7, you're absolutely right. I don't know what I was thinking, trying to spread the blame around like that between some businesses and some workers. But I see the light, capitalism is bad, employers are bad, the rich are evil and the unions are just doing God's work. And, I was absolutely wrong, not a single union has ever priced a single worker out of a job. My humble apologies, and may Karl Marx have mercy on my soul.

Best. Post. Ever.

dukkillr · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2007, 06:29:49 AM »

My post contained 3 words, it seems you're telling me more about my beliefs than I even knew I thought. Quite frankly this discussion will produce little. Fair is a relative term, and your definition and mine are different. Some believe that the economics this country was founded on are part of what america stands for. I would tend to agree, for better or worse. The world is full of socialist countries. America was founded without that "safety net" or "lazy handout grabbing programs" depending on what you want to call them. Labor was a powerful force in this country for a long time. Much like the Republicans having a great deal of power, it corrupted them. They became complacent, lazy, and detatched from the reality of the world around them. Labor has declined, at least in part, due to their own decisions. I don't think there's a debate about that from anyone but you. Since fair is defined by everyone differently, no one will ever agree if what has happened to labor in this country is "fair". Correspondingly it's simplistic and wrong to attack a definition of "fair" that isn't yours.

America is changing, as the world changes. Old labor is declining and I suspect that won't change. Technology, globalization, politics, education, business, demographics, information, and America's labor climate all contributed to this. Some of those things can be modified, some can't. Declaring that one side is completely wrong and another is completely right is ignorant. Many dynamic forces are at work, and someone who thinks it's all the fault of one thing exposes their own lack of insight.

Now maybe you know something about my beliefs and thus you don't need to declare, for me, what I think.

Beers · « **Reply #17 on:** January 18, 2007, 07:16:59 AM »

Quote from: dukkillr on January 18, 2007, 06:29:49 AM

America is changing, as the world changes. Old labor is declining and I suspect that won't change. Technology, globalization, politics, education, business, demographics, information, and America's labor climate all contributed to this. Some of those things can be modified, some can't. Declaring that one side is completely wrong and another is completely right is ignorant. Many dynamic forces are at work, and someone who thinks it's all the fault of one thing exposes their own lack of insight.

This paragraph seems like a rather simple observation to me.... I don't see any sign of "approval"... Just an observation.
The final 2 sentences are dead on. Anyone saying "it's all the executives and corporation's fault" or "it's all the workers fault" isn't looking at the whole equation...

IMO... I hear alot of gas about "buy american" and "support american companies"... My usuall reply to that is that I will... as soon as those companies start supporting americans... with the massive outsourcing of jobs, importation of foreign components, overseas factories... I don't know what the hell an "American" company is anymore....

At the same time, It's mighty hard to blame them sometimes... A corporation is not a person... or even a group of people. It's a set of instructions designed to make as much profit as possible. The executives really don't have much real power, the shareholders have the power. They want as much return on investment as they can get. If an executive isn't a bloodthirsty, money grubbing bastard, he will be swiftly replaced w/ someone that is. Sometimes it seems to me that labor wants a bit more than what I would call a "fair piece of the pie"... $21 dollars an hour to drink coffee, smoke cigarettes and occasionally *gasp* work?... Hell they're gonna move the factory to venezuela in a heartbeat. $18 an hour w/ full benifits to run the register at Krogers in Cali?.... Gee, I wonder why they keep pushing those "self checkout lanes".... So on and so forth...

Casull · « **Reply #18 on:** January 18, 2007, 07:52:26 AM »

Quote

Now, where did I say organized labor is not responsible for some of there own problems?

TM7, how about right here, where you answer your own question:

Quote

but am discussing that all labor wants is a fair shake in spite of the corruption all around

dukkillr and Beers are both saying what I was pointing out, just more eloquently. Anyone who thinks that one side is blameless and the other carries all blame is delusional at best and a liar at the worst. Corporations are not evil, neither are they saints. They are money making institutions, by design and by law. As long as they do not violate the laws, they are beholden to no one but their shareholders. That is not a good thing or a bad thing, it is just the way it is. But don't try to pretend, or convince me, that unions are any different, they just owe their loyalties to someone else (in most, but not all cases, I would think their members).

Beers · « **Reply #19 on:** January 18, 2007, 08:50:16 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on January 18, 2007, 08:18:03 AM

Who said that corporations should act with impunity and beholding to noone except its own?.

That's a good question... 'Cause it sure wasn't anyone posting in this thread...

Sure, the actions of many major corporations haven't been what I'd call good for this country... much less for thier employee's
But to lay the blame for these phenomena solely on the shoulders of "the big corporations" is pretty silly... Particularly if you consider the fact that corporations don't have shoulders. EVERY major American corporation is made up of LARGE numbers of people, shareholders and employees... Most of them Americans themselves... The individual that comprise these corporations are beholden to the laws of this country, as well as international law... are these sufficient? What can anyone do about it? Any suggestions?

Everyone here agrees that we have a problem... an' we can sit here and sling blame around like a bunch of monkeys in a poo flingin' contest all day... it boils down to this - You can vote w/ your wallet, you can vote w/ your feet, and you can vote in November... Where and how can you cast your votes in such a way as to do something positive about it all?

gypsyman · « **Reply #20 on:** January 18, 2007, 11:39:18 AM »

In all probability, most of the company's that have gone overseas, would have gone out of business if they would have tried to keep manufacturing here in the state's. I would like to vote for a politician that has an idea on how to remedy the situtation. Unfortunately, I see none now, nor on the horizon, Republican, or Democrat. And, as much as I would vote 3rd. party, its like throwing away your vote. We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!! Remember (12/7/41)--(9/11/01) gypsyman

jimster · « **Reply #21 on:** January 18, 2007, 11:47:46 AM »

Yep....voting is the key for sure. But when you have someone that aint that great, running against someone that's worse, running against someone horrible, then something else is going wrong.
Could be that all the candidates got there by way of a lot of money.
I'm wondering what it would be like to vote for someone who didn't have all that much money, and was smart to boot.
I

sparsons · « **Reply #22 on:** January 18, 2007, 12:16:22 PM »

That so-called Bud strike a couple years ago had nothing to do with any union sanctions. My brother owns a mom and pop store and we run it. Our beer was always on time and there was no strike here in Parkersburg, WV area. From what we learned from our drivers it was between a small group of workers/drivers and had no backing of the union. There was no union strike nor a picket line to cross around here. Part of the problem is when contracts are signed and workers do not honor them. Simply because a company goes overseas does not mean greed. They are making a product for the public to buy, overhead is one thing that will kill a company very quickly. While I do not like the fact companies move out of the country can we really say that if we were in their place we would not do the same. Remember if you as a manager make a wrong decesion you are out of a job==paycheck. Your company makes money you make money--you don't make money you are fired. Sort of a catch 22. I have met very few people who would not like a pay raise some even think they deserve it. I have met very few people who really want to pay more for a product than they have too. That is overhead in the company scheme of things. They must keep labor as low as possible to offer their product at a fair price.

williamlayton · « **Reply #23 on:** January 18, 2007, 12:39:58 PM »

For the millions I read about these folks getting when loosing their jobs who would care.
Folks the statement still stands--if there is no middleclass there will be no corporations and then the very rich will own all.
Now it may come as a shock but somebody has to have money to buy the things they are outsourceing to other countries too produce.
Now personally I think it will come to a point where there is no middleclass in this nation and all who have worked for retirement will have none.
Blessings

beemanbeme · « **Reply #24 on:** January 18, 2007, 12:58:18 PM »

The pendulum swings.

Beers · « **Reply #25 on:** January 18, 2007, 01:50:21 PM »

My apologies on that one, I hadn't noticed that post by casull... that was pretty close, but not quite.. note the words "by design, and by law. As well as "corporations are beholden to the laws of this country, as well as international law.

I've read a few threads on these boards regarding ethics, mostly on the subject of hunting of course... And it seems that the general concensus is that if it's legal, wether or not it's also "ethical" is up to the individual(s) in question. If you don't think the laws are ethical, well... re-read what I said about voting. Ballots ain't the only way....

Also, you seem to be dodging the whole "Any suggestions?" question. I got a long list of complaints about a long list of things. I generally keep my mouth shut about them untill I've got a better idea, or some notion of what might be done to change things for the better.

To be perfectly clear - for the most part I really don't like the way most major corporations do business. I think that alot of thier policies are harmfull to this country and it's future. The middle class is shrinking, and more and more of this country's wealth is accumulating in the hands of a relatively small number of people. Does the blame for all this rest solely on the "big corporations" and executives? I'm not as convinced as you are...

To me, it seems that the greed of the average executive is mirrored by the greed of the average laborer... A statement like that is sure to piss alot of people off... allow me to explain...

I dropped out of high school in 11th grade. I've never had any trouble finding work. I work 50 - 60 hour weeks at a bookstore. I take home exactly $640 a month. No benifits. My wife brings in another $800 roughly. She doesn't get benifits either. We have 2 children, a nice little subaru that we're still making payments on, and we live in a nice little trailer on 4 acres of land. We recieve no assistance or "social services" whatsoever. My wife, my children, me... We've got everything we need. I live very comfortably on what many consider a tiny income. I'm quite happy w/ my life so far... I've got what I consider a good job, I fish, I hunt, I play in my garden... I run around w/ my kids... I read.. I've got a happy family.... I'm one happy man.
So when I'm drivin' to work, and I see a bunch of yahoos that work half the hours I do while making 3 times my salary marching up and down the sidewalk waving signs and yelling about "unfair wages"... I'm usually tempted to stop and explain to them how damn lucky they are to have a job in the first place, and that they should shut up and stop being so greedy before they are replaced by machines or thier jobs are outsourced to a place where people are much more appreciative of the opportunity to work in exchange for money.

gypsyman · « **Reply #26 on:** January 18, 2007, 03:14:03 PM »

Sparsons, the strike I'm refering to, was a local distributer, using the glassworkers union, here in Toledo. I know of several instance's, where a worker was accused of a wrong doing, and kept his job because of the union. Later, in both cases, it was found out that the workers were innocent. My brother and nephew both work in an oil refinery, belong to chemical workers union, and make good money. I do not begrudge them at all. More power to them. I've also know of a woman that worked with my mother-in-law, at a dept store in Columbus. She was fired less than 60 days from her retirement, because she was $18 short in sales in the stationary dept. she worked in. Would have had 30 years in, she even offered to buy the $18 herself. Lazurus dept. store refused, I believe, just to cheat her out of her retirement. She still got her s.s., but lost the $ she was suppose to get from the store. There is where a union sure would have come in handy. (or a gun) We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work--Remember (12/7/41)--(9/11/01) gypsyman

Casull · « **Reply #27 on:** January 18, 2007, 03:32:10 PM »

Quote

Who said that corporations should act with impunity and beholding to noone except its own?.

TM7, you do a fine job of reading part of my post and ignoring the parts that don't fit your preconceived notions. As I said, "Corporations are not evil, neither are they saints. They are money making institutions, by design and by law. As long as they do not violate the laws, they are beholden to no one but their shareholders. That is not a good thing or a bad thing, it is just the way it is." So, if a company follows the laws of this country, pays its taxes, pays its employees (otherwise they would be violating the laws - read "theft"), and otherwise plays by the rules, then it should still be subject to your oversight as to its "fairness" or some such vague notion. Or better yet, if it cannot afford to continue business here due to the cost of labor, then by relocating to someplace else, it has acted with "impunity". I guess under your interpretation of the way things should be, that the company should continue to do business in just such a manner until it is bankrupt. Wait, if it did that, then you would want the shareholders to sue management for allowing their shares to become worthless. I give up. So what is the answer TM7?

williamlayton · « **Reply #28 on:** January 19, 2007, 02:48:42 AM »

Beers--
I think this is the question and yours is just your way of doing it.
I will suggest that as time goes on you may find that what is OK now will be lacking for you and yours in the future and needs will arise for more funds than you have prepared for.
Unless I am reading something into this that is not there--where is the preperation and who will support your needs when these little inevital catostrophies (sp) come into your life.
I enjoy a simple life--I support those who live simply--I suggest that the simple life is the best that can be offered in this world; however, It is good too prepare for contingencies--not just for yourself but for the children.
Blessings

superhornet · « **Reply #29 on:** January 19, 2007, 03:51:54 AM »

The problem with todays economic "free market"society is that it becomes bogged down by the liberal induced element of Class Warfare. What gives some people the right to determine how much I make or what I do with it?? What gives some people the right, after I have busted my hump, sweated blood and tears to get ahead and support my family, that I should have to give part of what I earn to someone who sets on their duff, drinking wine, breeding kids (that they don't support) and expecting welfare because it is their right ?? I respect and admire those people who have built large businesses and got ahead..The opportunity in this country to succeed is greater than anywhere else in the world...Get an education, work hard and read Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand....the right idea......