Author Topic: .280 Handi Deer this morning, raises a question (Read 1755 times)

RickC. · « **on:** January 17, 2007, 10:13:24 AM »

I was able to kill a 6 point this morning, just a bit over 200 yds by my estimation (I can't eyeball 215 v.s. 220, though some claim to be able to). Load was the 145 gr Speer spitzer, averages 2998 in my Handi.

The Handi put that bullet right ON the money, hitting just behind the left shoulder and exiting in the middle of the right shoulder blade (roughly 2" dia holes in both ribcages found upon field dressing). The bullet certainly did its job, and the deer humped up at the shot (making me afraid I had gut-shot it). As it turns out, the buck traveled about 75 yards before piling up, but I was absolutely amazed at the scant blood trail compared to similar shots I've made over the years with a 165 gr .308 bullet moving 350 fps slower. There was enough blood to confirrm it was not a gut shot (thank you Jesus!), but I'm used to a Blood Trail. In fact, I found the deer before I found enough of a trail to follow-- which is always a good thing, but now I'm wondering...

This is only the 2nd deer I've shot with the .280 (last time was the 150 Core Lokt factory load), but I noticed the same thing last time. Dead is dead, and I'm certainly not slagging the performance of the .280 OR this $200 rifle, but this cartridge doesn't seem to me to hit as hard as the .308. Hardly a scientific comparison, but has anyone else noticed this?

Comments?

Rick

burntmuch · « **Reply #1 on:** January 17, 2007, 10:23:40 AM »

Was it a heart shot if so if the hearts not pumping blood bloods not coming out. was the chest cavity full of blood

RickC. · « **Reply #2 on:** January 17, 2007, 10:35:29 AM »

Burnt,

It was, but similar shots with the .308 ended up with a chest full of blood -and- a substantial blood trail from the bigger exit hole.

Rick

burntmuch · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2007, 10:40:42 AM »

I ve had that happen to me with 7mag & 50 cal mz. Thank god for snow on ground. Think about how long it takes a deer to run 75 yrds.

RickC. · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2007, 10:42:29 AM »

Ha, no kiddin'!

I'm just very glad I found him before the rain started.

burntmuch · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2007, 10:42:52 AM »

I like a 30 cal bullit. but I have been thinking about that 280 for my handi.

burntmuch · « **Reply #6 on:** January 17, 2007, 10:45:24 AM »

Im a bow hunter. shooting from a treestand your exit wound is on the bottom of the deer. So yeah I m used to a better blood trail

Bill3006 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2007, 11:40:59 AM »

My son shot a cow elk last year with his Handi and a 30-06 180 gr Nosler Partition at about 50 yards. He hit it high, but through both lungs and the exit hole was at least 2 inch diameter. I was pretty sure he hit it, but it took off running. We waited a spell and then started tracking it in the snow. No blood trail whatsoever, at least that I saw, I started to think he missed but we kept following the tracks. From the tracks, it went about 100 yards, turned around to look at us, fell over dead, and slid down the mountain about 10 feet and wedged against a tree. The body cavity was full of blood, but evidently not enough to reach the bullet holes. I wonder how many shots like this end up with dead animals that people think they missed.

captdp · « **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2007, 02:24:31 PM »

Sounds to me like your shot was a little high to bleed within a couple of seconds. That's about how long it would take a deer to run 75 yds. Sometime they bleed and sometimes they don't unless hit low or n aorta near where there is blood pressure from the heart. capt david

RickC. · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2007, 02:34:47 PM »

Thanks all,

The shot was right in the middle vertically, but right, not much time for a deer to run. I just seems odd to me that the same kind of shot with the .308 never did this. Maybe just because the .308 made a bigger exit hole, I dunno.

The .45-70s never did this either, but I wouldn't have made that shot with either of them

burntmuch · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2007, 02:46:22 PM »

Are you still happy with that 280. Ive heard nothing but good about them

luv2shoot · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2007, 02:48:24 PM »

I have shot 140 grain Ballistic tips out of my .280 for over 18 years. I have nothing but good things to say about them.

RickC. · « **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2007, 03:06:19 PM »

Sorry if I gave the impression I'm unhappy with the .280-- not at all, how can I not like this rifle, offhand shot from a treestand at a moving deer at that distance, and it was a textbook shot-- may have been total luck, but I (and the rifle) will take credit for it!

Rick

luv2shoot · « **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2007, 03:09:28 PM »

I never doubted your love for the caliber

Its my all time favorite deer slayer

Mac11700 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2007, 07:48:58 PM »

Quote from: RickC. on January 17, 2007, 10:13:24 AM

I was able to kill a 6 point this morning, just a bit over 200 yds by my estimation (I can't eyeball 215 v.s. 220, though some claim to be able to). Load was the 145 gr Speer spitzer, averages 2998 in my Handi.

The Handi put that bullet right ON the money, hitting just behind the left shoulder and exiting in the middle of the right shoulder blade (roughly 2" dia holes in both ribcages found upon field dressing). The bullet certainly did its job, and the deer humped up at the shot (making me afraid I had gut-shot it). As it turns out, the buck traveled about 75 yards before piling up, but I was absolutely amazed at the scant blood trail compared to similar shots I've made over the years with a 165 gr .308 bullet moving 350 fps slower. There was enough blood to confirrm it was not a gut shot (thank you Jesus!), but I'm used to a Blood Trail. In fact, I found the deer before I found enough of a trail to follow-- which is always a good thing, but now I'm wondering...

This is only the 2nd deer I've shot with the .280 (last time was the 150 Core Lokt factory load), but I noticed the same thing last time. Dead is dead, and I'm certainly not slagging the performance of the .280 OR this $200 rifle, but this cartridge doesn't seem to me to hit as hard as the .308. Hardly a scientific comparison, but has anyone else noticed this?

Comments?

Rick

Each critter is different...and each have different "wills to live" as each of us do...Many different variables to contend with..If anything...I would say the bullet might not of opened up as fast for some reason..and didn't transmit a-lot of hydrolic pressure in the thoracic cavity to rupture those blood vessels...plus the fact it's probably much colder now where your at...and there will be less blood pushed out to the extremities on the critters too... Just a guess...

Mac

snakeskinner · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2007, 04:36:11 AM »

Sometimes when this happens I wonder if an animals skin will move so that the holes in the torso and holes in the skin don't line up. I've noticed no blood trail while a deer was running but as soon as it slows down to walk or stands blood starts coming out.

Tackleberry · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2007, 11:01:39 AM »

I shoot .280 Federals factory loads, from my superlight Browning A- bolt. I have harvested 6 deer with it and have yet to have to trail any of them (knock on wood). They have all humped, then slumped, kicked once, then expired pretty much on the spot. The .280 impacts very much like the .270 (shock and Awe) but better , I think. I very carefully place my shots, and really do not fire (any more) at a running deer because frankly, I cannot hit them. I think that most people think the heart is higher up on the deer than it really is. I place my shots ideally somewhat midway between the shoulder and the knee join on the flank behind the shoulder. I have hit a deer before with a .270 low on the chest, basically just creasing the cartiledge, without even drawing blood. The heart and lungs inside were pulverized. I'm not any better a shot than anyone else, but i do try to concentrate on bullet placement when I fire. So Far so Good.

I think the .280 is actually closer to a .30 in the way it impacts than the .270. All of the aforementioned cartridges will kill immediately with the right bullet placement, as will the .30-30 or the .32 Win special (my first kill was with a 93 Marlin). Back to my earlier, I really believe its all about bullet placement. If you do not impact the heart or very close to it to cause a quick bleed out, the animal may run from pure adrenaline. Also, You didn't mention if you did this, but never follow closely or run after a deer you've hit...give them 5-10 minutes, usually they will lay down with in 25-50 yards or less if hit well. 75 yards is not really that far, as noted above, and congratulations. Dave

tuxdad · « **Reply #17 on:** January 18, 2007, 04:43:25 PM »

I've been giving some thought to getting a 280, for quite a while now...

Is the recoil simular to that of the 308's??

Tackleberry · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2007, 04:45:36 AM »

I would say it has a bit more recoil than the .308..more similar to the .30-06, which of course is where the .280 (7mm remington express) or also the 7mm-06 is derived. It is a great round for reloading becuase there are so so many different bullets available for 7mm.....the 7mm bullet is inherently accurate just like the 30 cal...

burntmuch · « **Reply #19 on:** January 19, 2007, 04:50:38 AM »

Tacleberry I have a 3006 22inch barrel. Do you think I ll be gaining anthing with 26 inch 280 THANKS

Tackleberry · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2007, 09:10:58 AM »

Velocity wise, you will exceed .30-06 loads easily. Full velocity will probably be obtained with a 26 inch barrel at a loss of some "handiness" ....

burntmuch · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2007, 09:20:52 AM »

OK thanks

RickC. · « **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2007, 04:54:13 AM »

UPDATE:

Killed another 6 point the next morning, about 50 feet from where the other one was shot. I set up in a different place, this shot I estimate at 60-70 yards. Bang-flop (well, more like Bang-flop-flop-thud, he collapsed at the shot and fell down a steep 15 foot creek bank. Ouch).

Almost exact opposite angle of the first one, bullet entered close the center of the rigjt shoulder, put about a 2" hole in the ribs on that side, took out the heart and put about a 1" dia hole in the opposite side ribs-- did not exit, didn't look for the bullet in all the um, soup.

I reserved judgement on the other shot because to be honest, I've been a woods hunter until joining this current club (which has a lot of cutovers), and have only shot 3 deer at that distance in all the years I've hunted. But I've shot a BUNCH at 50-100 yds, with several calibers, and I know exactly what my .308 load does at that range on identical or similar shots-- which is to punch right through, taking bone with it, and I've never had one fail to exit at that range.

So while the .280 certainly did it's job, I can't help but conclude after 3 deer with 2 different bullets that the .280 and the .308 are pretty different animals when it comes to terminal performance. Not that it's bad or inferior, but it sure seems to me to be different. I recall talking to the first hunter I knew how shot a .280, a Texas hunter who hunted the Hill Country. I asked him why he liked that over the .30-06, and he said, "The .30-06 knocks too big a hole, tears up too much meat...". This must have been what he was talking about.

So when I said "doesn't hit as hard", maybe "not as destructive" would be a better description.

Whatever the semantics, they're different, from what I can tell.

Rick

NEFP · « **Reply #23 on:** January 21, 2007, 06:15:47 AM »

After reading this topic I have a question. Which round do you prefer? The 280 or 308? I am looking at puting a rifle together to hunt Antelope and Deer here in Arizona and both of these rounds are a consideration.

RickC. · « **Reply #24 on:** January 21, 2007, 07:43:04 AM »

Well, I'm conflicted about it. I really like getting 7 Mag-esque numbers in a standard cartridge and the accuracy of this round and rifle. And you sure can't complain about 2 shots and 2 deer. I also want to contact Speer and get their take on it.

But, these were not huge deer (118 and 115 lbs), and I've shot much bigger deer with the 165 BTSP in .308, and the .308 Win just seems to hit with more authority. But, there's no denying the .280 shoots a bit flatter. I guess the question would be at what range do you expect to be shooting game.

So if I'm pressed right now for an A v.s. B decision, I'd have to favor the .308. But I don't feel good about it, if that makes sense.

Rick

RickC. · « **Reply #25 on:** January 21, 2007, 08:30:35 AM »

Quote from: Tackleberry on January 18, 2007, 11:01:39 AM

Also, You didn't mention if you did this, but never follow closely or run after a deer you've hit...give them 5-10 minutes, usually they will lay down with in 25-50 yards or less if hit well. 75 yards is not really that far, as noted above, and congratulations. Dave

Thanks Dave,

I've been in the woods all week, away from a computer. And right, it was probably 20 mintues before I could get over to where I'd shot, had to get out ot the tree, navigate man-eating briars in a huge sage field, wade across a wide, swift, and cold creek, and then get my bearings and climb the steep clay bank on the other side (more briars) and figure out exactly where I'd shot. I think I bled more than that deer!

Rick

NEFP · « **Reply #26 on:** January 21, 2007, 09:00:39 AM »

Quote from: RickC. on January 21, 2007, 07:43:04 AM

I guess the question would be at what range do you expect to be shooting game.

So if I'm pressed right now for an A v.s. B decision, I'd have to favor the .308. But I don't feel good about it, if that makes sense.

Rick

I would have to say that my shot will need to go between 100 to 350 yards and still get the job done when the round gets there...

burntmuch · « **Reply #27 on:** January 21, 2007, 11:18:24 AM »

I think at that range you dont need the flat shooting 280 . But Ive never bought a gun cause need it. The only reason Im sticking with 3006 in my handi is because I have a remington 700 in 7mag

McLernon · « **Reply #28 on:** January 21, 2007, 11:34:28 AM »

All you have to do is poke a hole thru each lung(double lung shot) and you have a dead deer. I double-lunged a deer with a 257 Roberts three times before it got spooked and ran, two seasons ago. I was using 100 gr. Nosler Partitions. No exit wounds.

My buddy double-lunged a deer with a a 250-3000 last year and it when clear thru. The deer had seen us and he went a bit farther.

Deer cannot go far if they can't breath

Mc

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #29 on:** January 21, 2007, 03:44:41 PM »

The double lung shot does not kill always. I've personally wittnessed a perfect lung at 50 yds. with my bow,saw the arrow hanging out the other side by the fletching,and turned to my buddy and said thats a dead deer. Well the deer must have heard me because I trailed him up and down a cliff in southern New Mexico for 2 hrs. and he never stopped and he did stop bleeding though.
I had another hunting buddy that shot a elk through the lungs with a bow,and he did'nt find it either.But his guide found it 2 months later when another client shot it with a 300 mag.as it was chasing a cow elk.When he field dressed it,the arrow was still in the chest cavity stuck in the off shoulder and through lungs. The guide mailed my friend is arrow back,still in good shape. And that is a true story. Digger