Author Topic: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1 (Read 6178 times)

Busta · « **on:** January 20, 2007, 10:31:50 AM »

50 caliber muzzleloader plus: .17 HMR, .22 LR, .223 Rem., .243 Win., .270 Win., 30-06, .300 Win. for now. The trigger/hammer group all drops straight out the bottom. Rimfire and Centerfire all on one action. I have heard the price will be about $550, look out Encore. KP1 (Knight Phase 1), wonder what Phase 2 will bring?

Wolfhound · « **Reply #1 on:** January 20, 2007, 11:32:01 AM »

I know. From what I have read it sounds like they have solved the problems with the Encore. I hope they didn't create any new ones.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 20, 2007, 11:50:21 AM »

I will stick with my Encore, the Knight line of muzzleloader's left little to be desired and I doubt they will be any better. It is just an Encore wannabe.
I know how well the Encore's are made and how well they shoot. Why buy a copy when you can have the original.

I doubt that a lot of people will jump ship, just because Knight is copying an already proven design.

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #3 on:** January 20, 2007, 01:01:35 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 20, 2007, 11:50:21 AM

I will stick with my Encore, the Knight line of muzzleloader's left little to be desired and I doubt they will be any better. It is just an Encore wannabe.
I know how well the Encore's are made and how well they shoot. Why buy a copy when you can have the original.

I doubt that a lot of people will jump ship, just because Knight is copying an already proven design.

I just don't know!

Being an owner of a few odd balls being Whites, I've never caught on to the love afair of a pistol built into a rifle. But each to his own. I went to a gun show today and saw at least 10 different people toating Encore Muzzleloaders around. My buddy not knowing much about them asked, " them odd looking rifles looks like they would kick the snot out of Ya?". I told him I just didn't know. I was too scard to try one. But those who had them love em. But looking at the Knight stright line stock, I'd say they more resemble a upper line Handi Rifle. And being they'll have Green Mountain Barrels with out a QLA muzzle, they should be able to shoot sabots and conicals well. Now that's something Encore owners can't say every day.

IMHO,

DWB

sabotloader · « **Reply #4 on:** January 20, 2007, 03:16:34 PM »

Busta

Gee whiz this is a nice looking gun... I really do like the looks of it better than the Encore, Optima, NEF, & all those that have that look.

If it will shoot as well as the older Knights - they really might have something going for them.

Busta · « **Reply #5 on:** January 20, 2007, 03:34:30 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 20, 2007, 11:50:21 AM

I doubt that a lot of people will jump ship, just because Knight is copying an already proven design.

Redhawk1,

I can respect the fact that you and MANY others like the Encore, but there are just a FEW of us that never got on that ship. I never could get past the looks, but then again I love the Huntsman, warts and all. I also won't own a rifle with a QLA, it's a waste of good barrel IMO. I really think Knight has hit a home run with this new rifle, time will tell. I too had all but stuck a fork in Knight, the Vision and Revolution/II just did not cut it with me. I still own an original Knight MK-85, and until now haven't seen anything from them that caught my eye.

I really think that T/C, Knight and others need to position themselves for the inevitible, the smokeless evolution. To bury their heads in the sand, will only leave them with dust in their face. There are too many H&R/NEF, Encore, Ruger #1 frames out there with smokeless barrels on them right now, I'm sure it won't only take a few days to get one for the new Knight frame too. Who will be first to take that step now, Knight or T/C?

I think that SS Sandstone Laminate one has my name on it.

Maybe a .270, .30-06, or .300 barrel to go with it.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 20, 2007, 04:56:18 PM »

Busta
Why in the world would T/C and Knight join the smokeless evolution? Savage is not selling that many of them to make an impact on the sale of the other muzzleloader's. Plus a lot of States don't allow smokeless powder and I see other States joining the anti- smokeless way.

If you want to shoot smokeless in an Encore, buy one of there rifle barrels.

Good luck with your adventures with the new Knight M/L. Why would I give up a 1 inch group at 100 yards with my Encores to jump on a wannabe Encore from Knight? I already own the best muzzleloader made, the Encore.

SURVEYOR,
seeing's how no one has shot anything out of the new Knight, how can you say "they should be able to shoot sabots and conical's well". Is that just wishful thinking?

I know a lot of you anti-Encore people like to take a swat at the T/C Encore any time you can, but when you are at the top you expect that.

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #7 on:** January 20, 2007, 05:14:55 PM »

$:-\$

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 20, 2007, 05:19:52 PM »

That Knight is one sharp looking gun, IMHO. I'm sure I'll have to get one. And a new Triumph too. Spread the $$$ between Knight and T/C, I don't want anyone to think I'm playing favorites.

Man, all of these new smokepoles coming out, I'm going to have to get another gun safe. As for the Encore, I've seen some that really shoot, and more that were real dogs. Never seen one that's in the middle. I've had 5, and all were more to the dog side. Sometimes, that's just the way it goes......

Biff Mayhem · « **Reply #9 on:** January 20, 2007, 05:38:41 PM »

It's starting to make more sense why Thompson sold-out. First, they lost sales when the new Optima Elite came out -- now the new Knight KP1 will hurt them next. Smart move by Thompson to sell -- right when they were on top by a large margin -making excellent profits with the highest company value The general business saying is to consider selling your company when you feel it's at it's highest monetary value. Well Thompson Center did just that!

Busta · « **Reply #10 on:** January 20, 2007, 07:25:53 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 20, 2007, 04:56:18 PM

If you want to shoot smokeless in an Encore, buy one of there rifle barrels.

That is the problem, I don't want to shoot anything out of an Encore, period.

I just couldn't bear to lay my cheek on something that ugly. $:-\$

Critter · « **Reply #11 on:** January 21, 2007, 01:46:10 AM »

Interesting, I love my Knight and was thinking on a new ML. This gives me something else to think about, just what I needed.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 21, 2007, 02:11:00 AM »

Quote from: Biff Mayhem on January 20, 2007, 05:38:41 PM

It's starting to make more sense why Thompson sold-out. First, they lost sales when the new Optima Elite came out -- now the new Knight KP1 will hurt them next. Smart move by Thompson to sell -- right when they were on top by a large margin -making excellent profits with the highest company value The general business saying is to consider selling your company when you feel it's at it's highest monetary value. Well Thompson Center did just that!

I am more than sure the T/C and S&W deal was going on a long time before Knight though of copying T/C. Sorry but the Optima Elite did noting to hurt the sale of Encore's, they a another poor copy and cheesy looking gun for that matter. Have you handled or shot one? I have.

Will I go out an try the new Knight KP1, sure I will, I like trying other guns out, just to be able to say I actually shot one. Will it replace my Encore's I doubt it.

Busta · « **Reply #13 on:** January 21, 2007, 03:42:26 AM »

So, if Knight copied T/C, who did T/C copy? H&R maybe?

The KP1 is no more a copy of the Encore, than the Encore is a copy of the 1970's Huntsman. You will soon see that they have addressed some of the Encores issues, at least for me.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 21, 2007, 04:00:53 AM »

Quote from: Busta on January 21, 2007, 03:42:26 AM

So, if Knight copied T/C, who did T/C copy? H&R maybe? The KP1 is no more a copy of the Encore, than the Encore is a copy of the 1970's Huntsman. You will soon see that they have addressed some of the Encores issues, at least for me.

Do you have one in hand??? If not how do you know if your issues were indeed addressed, and exactly what issues were addressed? or are you like Randy Wakeman and just looking for a sponsor.

Also I don't recall H&R using interchangeable barrels before the Encore, if so maybe you can enlighten me on this. Also When did H&R come out with there first muzzleloader?

Come on Busta, you can do better than that.

I am anxiously awaiting your reply.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #15 on:** January 21, 2007, 05:18:28 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 21, 2007, 04:00:53 AM

Also When did H&R come out with there first muzzleloader?

A 58 caliber Huntsman came out in the 70's. It had a quick release breechplug with no threads and an O-ring. If I remember right it was a limited run because someone had a hangfire, broke the action open and the breechplug became a projectile when the powder ignited. I heard it was a T/C employee but I don't have link to that. Because of that incident break action ML's were set back decades. The next one that came out was the Encore and even then it didn't really take off until the Omega came out. From the time it came out until 2002 the Knight Disc was the gun to beat.

Lists a H & R huntsman muzzleloader, 58 cal :
http://www.kruse.com/auctions/gageview05/gageview_webpages/inventory.htm

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2007, 05:36:27 AM »

Wolfhound, thanks for the info, but are you sure it was a T/C employee?

Yes before the Encore and Omega came out I also had 2 Knight disc rifles. I was not happy with cleaning them or the accuracy I was getting. But when the Encore came out, I jumped right on it and found out just how accurate a muzzleloader could be. Funny thing is, I could not give my Knight disc rifles away, no one wanted them, I finally sold both of the for a total of $200.00 to a gun shop. They are probably still sitting there after 5 years. LOL.

The Encore did well when it first came out, followed by the Omega for the guy that did not want to change his barrels and the price was a lot lower than the Encore, it had nothing to do with the popularity of the Encore. Also some guys could not pass a background check required for the Encore and just opted for the Omega which does not require a background check, and how do I know this. I worked in a gun shop and dealt with there guys.

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2007, 05:41:54 AM »

I've shot an Optima Pro and handled several others. I don't care for the CVA's too much, but the guy that has it sold an Encore that wouldn't shoot worth beans. He loves it, and it's MOA with several loads. I will say that the composite material the stock is made of is superior to the T/C stocks, but the stock design leaves something to be desired. My biggest gripe with T/C is the synthetic stocks they use, but that's not a big enough issue to keep my from buying them. I guarantee that the stock on the KP1 will be better than anything T/C offers. Knight definitely has the best synthetic stocks in the business.

I've seen a couple of the old .58 Huntsman, at gun shows. They were out in the 70's, about the same time T/C got going. Did T/C copy H&R? I don't think so, but that may be where the idea for the Contender being able to switch barrels came from, the fact that the H&R's (or any other single shot guns) didn't offer that capability???

As for the Knights, they didn't win the Long Range contests in Friendship for 6 years straight because they can't shoot.

Every Knight I've had has been more accurate than my T/C's. Couple of T/C's came close, but not close enough.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2007, 05:48:17 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 21, 2007, 05:36:27 AM

Wolfhound, thanks for the info, but are you sure it was a T/C employee?

No. I'm inclined to believe it as I think I read it somewhere but I have no idea where. But no, I can't confirm it.

Quote

Yes before the Encore and Omega came out I also had 2 Knight disc rifles. I was not happy with cleaning them or the accuracy I was getting. But when the Encore came out, I jumped right on it and found out just how accurate a muzzleloader could be. Funny thing is, I could not give my Knight disc rifles away, no one wanted them, I finally sold both of the for a total of $200.00 to a gun shop. They are probably still sitting there after 5 years. LOL.

Here it was just the opposite. No one I know personally has a Encore. Everyone has a Disc. Up until the Omega came out no one could keep Disc Rifles in stock around here. I had to order my Disc Extreme to get one. That was the year the Omega came out. There are still a lot of hard core Knight guys locally. About the only T/C owners I know have old T/C Hawkens. I'm the only person I know with an Omega. Of course I'm also the only person I know who uses thumbhole stocks so I already get strange looks.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2007, 05:58:35 AM »

Quote from: kyelkhunter3006 on January 21, 2007, 05:41:54 AM

As for the Knights, they didn't win the Long Range contests in Friendship for 6 years straight because they can't shoot.
Every Knight I've had has been more accurate than my T/C's. Couple of T/C's came close, but not close enough.

My Omega is actually more accurate than my Knights, but it's 10X more finnicky. My Extreme will shoot nearly everything I've stuffed down it into an inch and a half or less. My Omega will spray bullets more often than not. And don't try to stuff any sort of conical down it. It won't group into a foot at 25 yds.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2007, 09:22:08 AM »

If I were going to shoot conical's I would not use an inline. Give me a T/C Hawkins or Renegade, they have been one of the best muzzleloader made for conical's. So I think T/C knows something about building muzzleloader's.

HD Road King · « **Reply #21 on:** January 21, 2007, 09:45:32 AM »

I thought that I had read somewhere that Tony Knight was called the Father of the modern day muzzle-loader. I think the article stated that he was the first to use the .209 primer system. So if that was correct then everyone has copied his idea also. Although that was a while back, so I may have misread that part.

Mike

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2007, 10:03:47 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 21, 2007, 09:22:08 AM

If I were going to shoot conical's I would not use an inline. Give me a T/C Hawkins or Renegade, they have been one of the best muzzleloader made for conical's. So I think T/C knows something about building muzzleloader's.

CAN YOU SAY WHITE!!

Busta · « **Reply #23 on:** January 21, 2007, 10:17:17 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 21, 2007, 04:00:53 AM

Quote from: Busta on January 21, 2007, 03:42:26 AM
So, if Knight copied T/C, who did T/C copy? H&R maybe? The KP1 is no more a copy of the Encore, than the Encore is a copy of the 1970's Huntsman. You will soon see that they have addressed some of the Encores issues, at least for me.

Do you have one in hand??? If not how do you know if your issues were indeed addressed, and exactly what issues were addressed? or are you like Randy Wakeman and just looking for a sponsor.

Also I don't recall H&R using interchangeable barrels before the Encore, if so maybe you can enlighten me on this. Also When did H&R come out with there first muzzleloader?

Come on Busta, you can do better than that.

I am anxiously awaiting your reply.

Redhawk1,

I don't need one in hand to see the issues that I have with the Encore have been addressed, a picture can do that. Read Encore issues, at least for me in my other post. I didn't say for everybody!

#1 is Ugly, they fixed that.
#2 is that dog-legged stock, they fixed that.
#3 is the QLA, they don't waste good barrel on that.
#4 is the trigger/hammer group all comes out as a unit and 3-3.5 pound pull.
#5 is they don't have an instant-crush recoil pad and cheesey synthetic stock.
#6 is they don't overprice their rifles like the Encore is.
#7 is it has a Green Mountain barrel that I have no doubt will shoot a conical well.
#8 is I won't need a hammer to seat a bullet.
#9 is I'm sure it won't cost $300 for another barrel.

I'm sure I'll have more when I have one in hand to use daily. I'm not like anyone, especially like who you mentioned, and not looking for a sponsor either, I call's 'em as I sees 'em. I work for a living, and buy all my rifles.

H&R has been using interchangable barrels since the 70's that I know of, the Toppers had .30-30 barrel and 20ga shotgun barrel Combos as one example. H&R made their H&R Huntsman Model 156 in the 70's (1972-1979). They had .58's, .45's, and 12ga, with both push-in and screw-in breech plugs. See Wolfhounds picture. I can't confirm it either, but I also heard it was a T/C employee that was killed by the plug.

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/printthread.php?t=12937

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=H%26R+Huntsman+.45+caliber+and+.58+caliber+Muzzleloaders&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.jackfirstgun.com/catalog-gtoi.html

I hope you enjoyed your enlightenment? When did T/C start as a company? What year did the Encore come out again? This is not like the chicken and the egg, we all know who built the first muzzleloader and who had the first switch barrels.

Is that better?

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #24 on:** January 21, 2007, 11:08:03 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 21, 2007, 09:22:08 AM

If I were going to shoot conical's I would not use an inline. Give me a T/C Hawkins or Renegade, they have been one of the best muzzleloader made for conical's. So I think T/C knows something about building muzzleloader's.

If thats true, they need to start building inlines for both sabots and conicals. I owned a renegade and loved the way it shot but sold it to buy my flintlock. Im not sure if the Elite put any pressure on the encore but if i were to buy either one it would be the CVA Elite due to the barrels not costing the price of an entire new rifle. I know my rifle will shoot conicals with excellent accuracy but i still have to try sabots. i cant use them during Mling season but i figured for plinking fun it would be worth shot.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #25 on:** January 21, 2007, 12:33:46 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 21, 2007, 09:22:08 AM

If I were going to shoot conical's I would not use an inline. Give me a T/C Hawkins or Renegade, they have been one of the best muzzleloader made for conical's. So I think T/C knows something about building muzzleloader's.

I know someone with 2 Encores. When he got them they would not shoot conicals for anything. He chopped the QLA's and now they miraculously shoot conicals. It's well enough known that T/C has problems with QLA's that there is a gunsmith that cuts the QLA's off. David White, I think. As far as shooting conicals out of an inline, I haven't seen many sidelocks easy to mount scopes to. Any inline has an advantage there.

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 21, 2007, 01:16:53 PM »

I too have heard issues about the QLA and accuracy. Something to do with not being able to get the crown completely square when they relieve the end of the barrel. I will admit that both of my T/C rifles tend to shoot very well with most sabot loads. Never tried any conicals out of them.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 21, 2007, 02:29:13 PM »

Well enjoy the new Knight. I hope it does better than the Knights I owned.

I will stick with my Encores.

I guess I don't have anything more of value to add to this thread, so I am out of this one.

Busta · « **Reply #28 on:** January 21, 2007, 03:17:41 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on January 21, 2007, 02:29:13 PM

Well enjoy the new Knight. I hope it does better than the Knights I owned.

I will stick with my Encores. I guess I don't have anything more of value to add to this thread, so I am out of this one.

Come on Redhawk1, you can do better than that.

I'm anxiously awaiting your answers to my questions, I answered yours.

Besides, nobody has even mentioned giving up your Encores, except you.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 21, 2007, 03:40:15 PM »

I just don't see that there is much more to add to this thread. You want to rave about the new Knight that is not even on the market for sale go ahead, I will wait tell they come out and then see what people have to say about them. For now there is no real point. Nothing you say about the new Knight mean's anything without someone doing any REAL hands on with the new M/L. It might be the biggest POS out there, but then again it may surprise some of us.

But be my guest, have a ball talking about a gun that no one will have for about 6 or 7 months.

Well I am going to bed, got to get up early, I am going hunting tomorrow, guess what it is the final week of M/L season and guess what I won't be taking....you got it the Knight KP1...

By the way, I will be using my Pro-hunter.