Author Topic: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1  (Read 6182 times)

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Offline daddywpb

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2007, 03:45:09 PM »
Interesting thread. Looks to me like Knight is trying to copy everyone. First the T/C Omega, now the H&R Handi. I agree that what they've been turning out in the last few years has not been good. I will also stick with T/C.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2007, 03:48:00 PM »
Busta, I did not want to disappoint you so here is something to read.

From the T/C site.
ABOUT THOMPSON CENTER ARMS
In 1965, K. W. Thompson Tool was looking for a product to build and a gun designer, Warren Center, was looking for someone to build his Contender pistol. It was a perfect match. The facilities at K. W. Thompson Tool were expanded and Thompson/Center Arms was formed. Two years later, the first Contender Pistol was shipped, starting a trend in high performance hunting handguns, which continues to grow every year. To date, over 400,000 Contender pistols have been shipped and the pistol’s reputation for versatility, accuracy and dependability goes unchallenged among serious handgun shooters.

 
Since the production of the initial Contender Pistol, the company has expanded its facilities and product line numerous times. In 1970, Thompson/Center entered the Black Powder market with the introduction of their first muzzleloading rifle, the Hawken. Muzzleloading interest at the time was minimal and the market needed a quality rifle, which could not only be shot but could be purchased at a reasonable price. Original or antique rifles were selling for high prices and most collectors opted not to fire these pieces. The T/C Hawken was the first of many muzzleloaders soon to be produced.

Currently, Thompson/Center Arms continues to produce an extensive line of single shot hunting pistols and rifles and a full line of muzzleloading rifles and “black powder” accessories.

The old style Contender Pistol has been redesigned. Now called the G2 Contender (2nd generation), it continues to be the most versatile hunting pistol on the market, with the capabilities of accepting both rimfire and centerfire barrels. In addition to the G2 Contender Pistol, T/C also produces a G2 Contender Rifle, again boasting readily interchangeable barrels. Sporting a 23” barrel and weighing only 5.4 pounds, there isn’t a handier, more versatile rifle anywhere.

The overall success of the Contender Pistol, and the reputation it established, led the company to bring out a slightly larger version, with a longer and thicker frame. Called the Encore, this pistol (and rifle) can accept the larger, high-powered cartridges popular with hunters who need more power at extended ranges.

Over the last 15 years, the sport of “Black Powder” hunting has increased dramatically and so too has the hunters demands. Generally not interested in the nostalgia, which accompanies the guns of the 1800’s, these hunters want modern designs, better accuracy at extended ranges, and easier cleaning. Although Thompson/Center Arms continues to offer our first muzzleloader, the Hawken, as well as the old standby version, the Renegade, most of the muzzleloaders offered today are modern style in-lines, capable of accepting magnum charges of 150 grains of FFG Black Powder, or Pyrodex equivalent (i.e.: three each of 50 grain [50 caliber] Pyrodex pellets).

 
Thompson/Center now offers three different styles of modern in-line muzzleloaders; the Black Diamond XR—an open breech striker design, the Omega—a sealed pivoting breech design, and the Encore 209x50 Magnum—the most versatile and popular muzzleloader sold today.

As in the past, extensive arrays of black powder accessories are offered to compliment this entire product line. All made in the USA at our Rochester, New Hampshire facility.

Our products are built with one thing in mind—quality. They’re built by New Englanders who take pride in building a sturdy product and selling it for a fair value. Thompson/Center backs this up with its famous Life Time Warranty.

Our precision investment castings come from our own casting facility here in Rochester, Thompson Investment Castings. Our dedication in providing you the best product value out there comes from our employees who, more often than not, use our products when they head into the fields and woods each year themselves.

Thompson/Center is not old by historical standards; we were not around at the turn of the century. But in the almost 40 years we’ve been in the business, we have contributed heavily to the growth of shooting and hunting in America. We’ve elevated handgun hunting and hunting with a muzzleloader to new heights and we continue to be the leaders within this industry by offering more innovative


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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2007, 04:07:57 PM »
All that doesnt explain why they dont sell rifles with triggers that are advertised preset at 3- 3.5lbs or why a lot of TC ml'ers refuse to shoot a conical. Or the most important advertisement thats not true " sealed breech Omega" From my understanding, the first omegas were sealed but then were noted for leaking badly and allowing blowby. As for them saying "fair price" A rifle thats fair priced in my mind is a rifle that will shoot a good assortment of bullets/powders. But the other guys that mentioned the cheap cheesy stocks " synthetic" are 100% correct on that issue. Its like holding  a  $1.00 plastic water bottle you get out of the machine.

Offline SURVEYOR

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2007, 04:27:17 PM »
 :o

Good Luck! ;)
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Offline Busta

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2007, 05:06:04 PM »
Thanks Redhawk1, that's what I was looking for, except no production date for the Encore. ??? I'm thinking it was the late 90's?

I have a T/C sidelock .54 cal, pre-QLA, 1980's manufacture, wood and blueing are superb, as is my MK-85 from the 80's. They don't make 'em like that anymore. Those rifles were crafted, now they are assembled.  :(
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Offline slave

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2007, 12:58:29 AM »
To me the new knight looks like an o/u.
keep your powder dry !!!

Offline manofthe45

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2007, 05:54:41 AM »
If you read the pictured add you will see the new knight has a 1 in 28" twist this is the standard twist for almost all inlines.  Cva, Knight, T/C, Traditions.  1 in 28" twist is to fast for conigals.  It was started for saboted rounds.   Conigals need a 1 in 48" twist for accuracy.  So claiming an encore is flawed for not shooting coni's accuratly only shows a lack of common ML knowledge. DEE DEE DEE
T/C encore 1 in 28"  new knight 1 in 28"  I wouldn't expect a accurracy differance there with coni

  Just my 2 cents
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Offline SURVEYOR

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2007, 06:27:35 AM »
If you read the pictured add you will see the new knight has a 1 in 28" twist this is the standard twist for almost all inlines.  Cva, Knight, T/C, Traditions.  1 in 28" twist is to fast for conigals.  It was started for saboted rounds.   Conigals need a 1 in 48" twist for accuracy.  So claiming an encore is flawed for not shooting coni's accuratly only shows a lack of common ML knowledge. DEE DEE DEE
T/C encore 1 in 28"  new knight 1 in 28"  I wouldn't expect a accurracy differance there with coni

  Just my 2 cents

I beg to differ! I shoot a White .504 bore with a 1:24 twist that shoots conicals in the 460 grain class better than anything you have listed up there. The .451 Whites have a 1:22 twist, and the .410 Whites have a 1:18 twist. There is no better conical shooter than a White. Well the Handi Rifle and Knights do well too with a 1:28 twist, but I bet you have to swab between shots. Not the case with Whites. Just load and shoot, worry about cleaning latter.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2007, 06:58:43 AM »
SURVEYOR, I have a serious question for you. What makes the White shoot conical's so well with a 1:24 twist but an Encore or Omega with a 1:28 twist not shoot them well?

If it has nothing to do with twist, what is it?

Thanks
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2007, 07:01:03 AM »
I went hunting this morning and seen 4 deer, one small buck and 3 doe's. I did not get a clear shot, but it was nice sitting in the woods with some fresh snow on the ground.  ;D
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Offline SURVEYOR

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2007, 07:08:52 AM »
It's got alot to do with the twist. The heavier and longer the conical the faster the twist to stabilize the conical. Then too Whites have shallow rifling. Having a bore of .504 with a bullet sized from .504 to .503 thuss having the heat of the powder going off to cause the soft lead to fill the bore as a gas check makes for a very accuracte rifle and bullet combo. But White do shoot sabots as good as any other rifes too. It's all in the barrels being built so close to tolerences. Knights too have shallow rifling. They tend to be sized at .502 +/- just a little.
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Offline slave

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2007, 08:38:40 AM »
Bullet Stabilization An elongated bullet flying through the air without spinning will be unstable and inaccurate. The longer the bullet is in relation to its diameter, the more spin is required to stabilize it. How much spin is required? This relationship is expressed in the Greenhill formula, a simplified version of which is:

150 x diameter squared divided by bullet length = required spin

Example for a .45 caliber bullet .60 inches long:

150 x .45 x .45 divided by .60 = 50.6 inches

So, for the example bullet, a spin rate of 1:50.6 or faster is required

The formula can also provide us with the maximum bullet length which can be stabilized by a given barrel twist. The formula becomes:

150 x diameter squared divided by twist rate

Example for a .50 caliber barrel of 1:48 twist:

150 x .50 x .50 divided by 48 = .78 inches

The barrel will stabilize a bullet .78 inches long, or shorter.

keep your powder dry !!!

Offline slave

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2007, 08:41:31 AM »
Sorry about my last post. All it could do is get this thread a tad more off course.  ;D
keep your powder dry !!!

Offline Wolfhound

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2007, 11:13:06 AM »
If it has nothing to do with twist, what is it?

I'm not Surveyor but most folks think it's the QLA. My 1/28 Knight shoots them very well. The Wolverine 209 my wife had shot them very well also. Everything from Powerbelts to Hornady Great plains bullets. I just prefer to hunt with Sabots in it. I'm getting a 1/28 GM barrel for my Hawken for shooting conicals. I told a lady from T/C during a part inquiry that I was getting a GM barrel and was told that theirs cost about the same. I told her but GM barrels don't have the stupid QLA. I want it to shoot conicals not roundballs or sabots. ::)

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2007, 03:32:15 PM »
I guess i got lucky with my 1" groups with my winchester x150 and 385 grain great plains bullet, the tc maxi hunters also shot great. Hmmmmmm


If you read the pictured add you will see the new knight has a 1 in 28" twist this is the standard twist for almost all inlines.  Cva, Knight, T/C, Traditions.  1 in 28" twist is to fast for conigals.  It was started for saboted rounds.   Conigals need a 1 in 48" twist for accuracy.  So claiming an encore is flawed for not shooting coni's accuratly only shows a lack of common ML knowledge. DEE DEE DEE
T/C encore 1 in 28"  new knight 1 in 28"  I wouldn't expect a accurracy differance there with coni

  Just my 2 cents

Offline TooTall

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2007, 03:45:03 PM »
I agree with the QLA problem.  My Encore would not consistantly hit a 2 ft box at 100 yds shooting 460 gr NoExcuses til I had the QLA cut off. Now it shoots conicals and sabots equally well.

Alot of people may wonder why anyone would go to the trouble to get conicals to shoot but I hunt Colorado and sabots are not allowed.

The report on the Knight KP1 looks encouraging and I hope they get it on the market faster than they produced the Vision. I believe it took a year and a half after they introduced it at the shot show.

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2007, 04:48:54 PM »
Whats the deal with TC qla's? every inline ive shot "bpi" didnt give me a problem. I like the qla on my rifle. Doesnt hacking off part of the barrel void the warranty?




I agree with the QLA problem.  My Encore would not consistantly hit a 2 ft box at 100 yds shooting 460 gr NoExcuses til I had the QLA cut off. Now it shoots conicals and sabots equally well.

Alot of people may wonder why anyone would go to the trouble to get conicals to shoot but I hunt Colorado and sabots are not allowed.

The report on the Knight KP1 looks encouraging and I hope they get it on the market faster than they produced the Vision. I believe it took a year and a half after they introduced it at the shot show.

Offline TooTall

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2007, 05:35:10 PM »
Whats the deal with TC qla's? every inline ive shot "bpi" didnt give me a problem. I like the qla on my rifle. Doesnt hacking off part of the barrel void the warranty?

http://www.prbullet.com/crown.htm

check out the link for more info on T/C's QLA.  Your "BPI" QLA was probably done correctly.

Yea, my barrel warranty would be nonexistant but I didn't really care.  I"m not really recommending everyone cut off the QLA.  If your objective is to shoot big 460 to 500 gr conicals, a better choice would be to find a conical friendly gun like a 1/24 twist WHITE.

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2007, 05:55:33 PM »
Wow that stinks. Is this the reason alot of the TC inlines refuse to shoot conicals  or what? I seen some peope shoot sabots with great results and then switch to a conical and not hit anything. Why would it affect the conical more than the sabot? Interesting stuff.

Offline Busta

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2007, 09:50:12 PM »
If you read the pictured add you will see the new knight has a 1 in 28" twist this is the standard twist for almost all inlines.  Cva, Knight, T/C, Traditions.  1 in 28" twist is to fast for conigals.  It was started for saboted rounds.   Conigals need a 1 in 48" twist for accuracy.  So claiming an encore is flawed for not shooting coni's accuratly only shows a lack of common ML knowledge. DEE DEE DEE
T/C encore 1 in 28"  new knight 1 in 28"  I wouldn't expect a accurracy differance there with coni

  Just my 2 cents

Manofthe45,

You are obviously a newbee, or you don't know a thing about shooting "conicals"! What is a conigal? ::) First of all, you need a faster twist to shoot heavy conicals, not a slower twist. I own and shoot many muzzleloaders with conicals, saboted bullets, and roundballs. My .504 cal White has a 1-24", my .451 cal White has a 1-20", my .50 (.502") cal NEF (Green Mountain barrel) has a 1-28", My .50 (.502") cal Knight (Gumby barrel) has 1-28", all shallow rifling (.0035" Whites,.0045" NEF), and all shoot conicals superbly. It is the mis-aligned QLA's on the T/C's that ruin accuracy with conicals, NOT the 1-28" twist.

My T/C has a 1-48" twist for roundballs, minies and saboted bullets, NOT long heavy conicals.

Pretty good education for 2 cents, don't ya think? ;)
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2007, 11:57:20 PM »
Busta, please don't be a spell checker here. He missed the c key and put the g in it's place.  Thanks.
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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2007, 12:01:26 AM »
I agree with the QLA problem.  My Encore would not consistantly hit a 2 ft box at 100 yds shooting 460 gr NoExcuses til I had the QLA cut off. Now it shoots conicals and sabots equally well.

Alot of people may wonder why anyone would go to the trouble to get conicals to shoot but I hunt Colorado and sabots are not allowed.

The report on the Knight KP1 looks encouraging and I hope they get it on the market faster than they produced the Vision. I believe it took a year and a half after they introduced it at the shot show.

It was not much of a report, that is just an advertisement, no one has shot one yet so the actual reports are not out yet. 

I was wondering why the trigger assembly was so easily removed, does it get that dirty and therefor the trigger assembly needs to be removed?
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Offline Hammerspur

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2007, 02:07:03 AM »
I thought that I had read somewhere that Tony Knight was called the Father of the modern day muzzle-loader. I think the article stated that he was the first to use the .209 primer system. So if that was correct then everyone has copied his idea also. Although that was a while back, so I may have misread that part. ;)

Mike

I met and spoke with another hunter coming out of the woods who was carrying a 12ga H&R Huntsman with 209 priming over 25 years ago... maybe closer to 30.
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Offline Hammerspur

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2007, 02:27:24 AM »
Bullet Stabilization An elongated bullet flying through the air without spinning will be unstable and inaccurate. The longer the bullet is in relation to its diameter, the more spin is required to stabilize it. How much spin is required? This relationship is expressed in the Greenhill formula, a simplified version of which is:

150 x diameter squared divided by bullet length = required spin

Example for a .45 caliber bullet .60 inches long:

150 x .45 x .45 divided by .60 = 50.6 inches

So, for the example bullet, a spin rate of 1:50.6 or faster is required

The formula can also provide us with the maximum bullet length which can be stabilized by a given barrel twist. The formula becomes:

150 x diameter squared divided by twist rate

Example for a .50 caliber barrel of 1:48 twist:

150 x .50 x .50 divided by 48 = .78 inches

The barrel will stabilize a bullet .78 inches long, or shorter.



I use Greenhill for approximations all the time, but as it represents absolutes some disgression may be needed for a better idea of where to start with bullet experimentation.
Having difficulty with one of my rifles in terms of this some years ago, using the '150' Greenhill constant, I tried a reverse calculation...

Using the bullet caliber, length and twist rate of an accurate load in another rifle as the 'knowns' and representing the otherwise, so-called constant as "X", calculation yielded a factor of 118 (as opposed to 150).

I discussed this with a custom barrel/rifle builder I'd done business with. He told me he believed I was on to something germaine with my speculation as, according to him, target rifle buliders use a higher factor for these calculations, 180 I think he said, when buliding the real small bore, hi-velocity numbers like .17 centerfires.

Now when I'm trying to get a ballpark start with a projectile weight (length) I do two equations, one at the factor of 150, the next at 118 and use the average as my starting point.
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Offline AndyHass

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2007, 02:49:04 AM »
People have different tastes in MLs.  Anyone who says theirs is the absolute best for everyone is either insincere or fooling themselves.

There are very few MLs out there that can't shoot 1" groups with some degree of effort and load development.  I've done it with the full range from $120 to $650 MLs.  To claim that every ML model except yours sprays bullets means you either didn't put much work into load development, or have not shot enough to demonstrate that you had bad luck of the draw with the individual firearms you obtained.

Knights have proven their accuracy time and time again.  To claim that "Knights are crap" or anything to that line of thinking ignores the truth of a massive amount of testimony from their owners and competition results.  Yes, their DISC rifle design became outdated with the Omega and Encore.  People like me wouldn't buy them because we refused to be tied in to buying DISCs.  But they WERE good guns, and Tony Knight is indeed responsible for much of the popularity surrounding inlines.

Encores can be good guns.  A lot of people like them and there are good features.  However there are issues to, the only one I've ever handled shot more like a dog than a star.

Redhawk, I find your responses on this thread disappointing.  I thought you'd be above this.  Nobody is saying the Encore is a bad gun or that it doesn't shoot well for you, but respect others' right to like other guns.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2007, 03:17:53 AM »
I thought that I had read somewhere that Tony Knight was called the Father of the modern day muzzle-loader. I think the article stated that he was the first to use the .209 primer system. So if that was correct then everyone has copied his idea also. Although that was a while back, so I may have misread that part. ;)

Mike

I met and spoke with another hunter coming out of the woods who was carrying a 12ga H&R Huntsman with 209 priming over 25 years ago... maybe closer to 30.

Hammerspur,
Was that a standard 12 gauge shotgun or a Muzzleloading shotgun?

AndyHass, I think the Encore is the best muzzleloader out there, that is my opinion, but I never said it was for everyone. If I did please show me where I posted that.
I owned 2 Knight disc rifles and both shot like crap, so I guess I can give my account of my experience with Knight muzzleloader's. Or should I stay silent so I don't upset anyone?
Andy, frankly I don't care if you are disappointed in my response, I am entitled to my opinion just as much as the guys that think this gun is going to make the Encore or Omega obsolete.  So get over being disappointed with me and deal with it.
I am not here to win a popularity contest.
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Offline Hammerspur

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2007, 04:04:27 AM »


Hammerspur,
Was that a standard 12 gauge shotgun or a Muzzleloading shotgun? [/quote]

That was a Huntsman, which was a muzzleloader.
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Of course guns are dangerous... if they weren't they wouldn't be good for anything!

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2007, 04:13:10 AM »
That was a Huntsman, which was a muzzleloader.

I have never seen or heard of a 12 gauge Muzzleloading shotgun from H&R the used the 209 primer 25 years ago. I am going to try a search.
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Offline slave

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2007, 05:17:05 AM »
I know H&R did have a ML barrel that could be pined to a 12ga frame many years ago.
It could actualy be bought like an Encore from the source in a ML configuration. Most were sold as a barrel/forearm kit to add to your single shots frame. My father had one. His came with a #11 plug not a 209. It was an inline but even all thoughs years ago guys were modifing them by drilling out plugs looking for a more consistant sources of ignition.


 
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Offline Busta

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Re: Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2007, 05:52:58 AM »
Busta, please don't be a spell checker here. He missed the c key and put the g in it's place.  Thanks.

Just asking a question, thought there might be some new hybred bullet that I didn't know about, since he spelled it that way twice.

While were at it, maybe we should get this thread back on the tracks? WHO, besides you, said that the Knight KP1 was going to make the Encore and Omega obsolete? I must have missed that. I'm thinking the KP1 will make the Encore better, it's called competition. A good thing for both companies.

Looks like T/C might be the ones making the Omega obsolete (if that is indeed the case) with their new Triumph.

Let's get back to the KP1, who likes it's design?
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