Author Topic: .44 mag Handi Rifle? (Read 3010 times)

MS10point · « **on:** January 21, 2007, 03:30:04 PM »

Because of a strange new law here in Mississippi, it is now legal to use certain single shot ,large caliber(.38 or larger) centerfire rifles during the "primitive weapon" season. Because of it's design, one of the rifles allowed is the NEF Handi rifle. I still enjoy using my muzzle loader but am considering buying a "Handi" for my 12 year old son. Most everyone is going with the 45-70 but I'm afraid that the recoil might be a little stout, so now I am thinking about maybe going with the .44 mag. I am not familiar with the caliber's game getting ability. With the 22" barrel and a scope would this setup be a good option for Deer @100-125 yds? Would the recoil be noticeably lighter than a 45-70 or .444 (my other choices in this gun).

Thanks!
TP

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #1 on:** January 21, 2007, 05:26:09 PM »

The recoil is very mild compared to the 4570 but the barrel spec's. are oversized and most will not shoot under 3" at 100 yds. If you reload,you can improve it some but most of us have reamed our's out to 445 supermag and are geting 1 1/2 groups from it. Digger

JPH45 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 21, 2007, 05:49:53 PM »

Read the rules carefully, they only allow cartridges in use prior to 1895, that means the only chamberings that NEF offers that are legal are 38-55, 45-70 and now the 45 Colt. Loaded to Ruger levels the 45 Colt is everything the 44 Mag is for practical purposes. I've wondered how much this swayed their issuing the 45 Colt B. Classic as there was a clamor for a couple years for this chambering....

Buffalo Bore and Corbon offer some heavy 45 Colt loads that would adaquate for 100-125 yard shots.

EDIT: Remingtons 400 grain 45-70 laod pushes a 400 grian bulelt at 1300 fps. Recoil would be about like a heavily loaded muzzleloader, and should be fine for the young man. I'm sure if he could handle a 20 guage with slugs, he could handle this load just as well.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** January 21, 2007, 06:34:47 PM »

If the 44mag Handi isn't legal for the MS primitive weapons season, there sure are a bunch there that say it is and have been using it for 2yrs!! From their state run wildlife forum...

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12797&SearchTerms=44,mag

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24495&SearchTerms=44,mag

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24598&SearchTerms=44,mag

Stuffit even called the MDWFP and confirmed that it was legal, along with the .450 Marlin!!

Quote

JPH45,
I believe someone is giving you erroneous information. What is your source? We got all kinds of variations of that same theme until we called Mississippi Game and Fish recently and the .44 Mag and .450 are definitely legal. Don't blame you for the errors though. For a while around here, you got a different story at every sporting goods store. Best to go to the horses mouth. This forum
MSGameFish moderated by the MS Game and Fish, has a sticky with the correct info.

stuffit

http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8863&PN=1

That would also mean the .500S&W Handi is legal too!!

The sticky Stuffit refers to is below.

Tim

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10913

Quote

This an approved list that we have for the new public notice on the breechloading sigle shot rifles, kind or type manufactured before 1900 with an exposed hammer, .38 cal or larger.

This list is by no means exclusive. This is just a list comprised of commonly available rifles.

SINGLE SHOT BREECHLOADING RIFLES WHICH ARE PRIMATIVE WEAPONS:

Sharps rifles or replicas
Reminton Rollingblock rifles or replicas
Ballard rifles
Maynard rifles or replicas
Burnside carbines
Frank Wesson rifles
Remington Hepburn rifles
M1873-1888 Springfield (trapdoor) Rifles and Carbines and replicas
Snider (British) rifles or replicas
Wesson & Harrington 1871 Rifles
New England Firearms or Harrington & Richardson Handi Rifles
Winchester M1885 Hi Wall or Lo Wall rifles or replicas (Also Browning B78 or 1885)

SINGLE SHOT BREECHLOADING RIFLES WHICH ARE NOT PRIMATIVE WEAPONS!!!!

Ruger Number 1 and Number 3 (no exposed hammer)
Thompson Center Contender or Encore Carbines (designed after 1900)
Mossberg SSi Single Shot Rifle (no exposed hammer and designed after 1900)

MS10point · « **Reply #4 on:** January 22, 2007, 02:46:13 AM »

Quote from: JPH45 on January 21, 2007, 05:49:53 PM

Read the rules carefully, they only allow cartridges in use prior to 1895, that means the only chamberings that NEF offers that are legal are 38-55, 45-70 and now the 45 Colt. Loaded to Ruger levels the 45 Colt is everything the 44 Mag is for practical purposes. I've wondered how much this swayed their issuing the 45 Colt B. Classic as there was a clamor for a couple years for this chambering....

Buffalo Bore and Corbon offer some heavy 45 Colt loads that would adaquate for 100-125 yard shots.

EDIT: Remingtons 400 grain 45-70 laod pushes a 400 grian bulelt at 1300 fps. Recoil would be about like a heavily loaded muzzleloader, and should be fine for the young man. I'm sure if he could handle a 20 guage with slugs, he could handle this load just as well.

The only rule concerning the caliber is that it must be .38 cal. or larger. It just has to be shot out of a particular style of GUN. The hot thing this year has been to bore out a .44 to a .444. Now it looks like NEF is going to offer the Handi in a .444 this year. A few have been using the .500 S&W but I have heard of some problems with the durability of the guns.
TP

MSP Ret · « **Reply #5 on:** January 22, 2007, 03:13:44 AM »

I would suggest the 45/70, just load some rounds which produce less recoil (28.0 grains of 2400 behind a 350 grain Hornady FP or RN bullet, extremely accurate and little recoil) or use the factory 405 grain Remingtons. If you get him any .44 caliber Handi you will have to reload to hope to get accuracy anyway, and you will still be trying to match the 45/70, by going to the 45/70 to start and with the proper loads for your son to begin with he will have an accurate shooter and you will not be handicapping him with known problems, also he can grow into more poowerful loadings and he can get into reloading with you as well, it is a great time for Dad's and children to spend together. To this day my daughter still remembers sitting on my lap and "making bullets" together over 25 years ago. Don't handicap him with something with known problems by trying to match the 45/70 performance, get him the 45/70 and use to proper loads and he can have a gun "Just like Dad's"....<><....

PartsMan · « **Reply #6 on:** January 22, 2007, 03:14:34 AM »

Maybe I'm just not picky enuff, but wouldn't 3"at 100yds be just fine for deer using a 44 mag.
That would put you in the vitals at 200yds, and thats way past the effective range.

Ranger J · « **Reply #7 on:** January 22, 2007, 04:25:24 AM »

I would have danced for joy if the .44 barrel had shot reliably 3” at 50 yards. Granted my old barrel would have probably hit a deer at the ranges my shots are usually taken at but it was by far the most inaccurate gun I owned. At 50 yards my .44 Deerfield will shoot cloverleaves. Get the 45/70; mine came out of the box shooting touching shots at 50 yards. I finally sold the .44 barrel and put the money into a Marlin 1895 in .44. As the weather has been rotten around here and doesn’t look a lot better for next 10 days I haven’t got to shoot it a lot yet. The first sighting in looked promising though. If the recoil on trapdoor loads in the 45/70 is too much take the recoil pad off and fill the bolthole with #2 shot. I would really avoid the .44. Just my 2 cents.
RJ

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #8 on:** January 22, 2007, 04:44:56 AM »

Ranger J,most of the guy's that reamed there 44 were getting about 3" at 100 with there 44 mag. and some was even better.Digger

MSP Ret · « **Reply #9 on:** January 22, 2007, 05:03:43 AM »

Digger, are those 3" 100 yard groups being shot with factory .44 Mag ammo? If so then there is some hope for me getting a .44 barrel. I have wanted one for a while but with the overbore issue it became a non-issue. I myself could live with a .44 Mag hunting gun that gives me 3" or less groups at 100 yards wirh factory jacketed ammo and would probably buy on if it were the case. If they are getting those groups with factory ammo how does reaming the chamber longer help with accuracy with the factory ammo? Thanks, I still think the 45/70 is they way to go for this member but now I am rethinking a .44 for myself since I already have a 45/70....<><....

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** January 22, 2007, 06:05:52 AM »

Quote from: MS10point on January 22, 2007, 02:46:13 AM

The hot thing this year has been to bore out a .44 to a .444. Now it looks like NEF is going to offer the Handi in a .444 this year. A few have been using the .500 S&W but I have heard of some problems with the durability of the guns.
TP

Here's a previous thread on the 44mag.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,106440.msg1098303597.html#msg1098303597

As far as the .444 Marlin, it's gonna have the same slow twist rate of 1:38", if it's also overbore like the .44Mag, it's may not be as popular as we'd like, I know I won't be ordering one until someone else reports on it.

No one has reported a problem with the .500S&W Handi's durability, only the recoil!!

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,104336.msg1098290154.html#msg1098290154

Some Handis have shot loose in short order, but the factory is quick to fix the barrel fit problem, considering the number of Handis out there and the relatively few reported here, I don't see it as a common problem, but can happen, all it takes is a burr on the pivot that the factory doesn't catch, sometimes their QC leaves a bit to be desired.

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,100529.msg1098266306.html#msg1098266306

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #11 on:** January 22, 2007, 08:58:24 AM »

MSP,I don't recall ever shooting any factory ammo in my 44 mag,but it has shot a veiw 1 1/2" with the 300 gr. XTP's with a max load of H110.The talk over the 1 in 38 twist reminded me of what the Speer reloading manuel said about the 444 Marlin they made there test with. They started to not test there 300 gr. bullet,but tested it anyway,and it turned out the most accurate bullet they tested.I think that the 444 speed cranked up to the proper RPM's to stabilizie the bullet ( 2250 plus) .My 44 mag also liked the 240 Rem. bullet ( the one they use in the 444 ammo).With the loose bore,they seem to shoot best with fullbore loads or a little above.
Maybe Warf,Granpa Mike,and the other's will tell what there's done before they reamed it.But for a young boy shooting a 45 70 I would use a 300 gr. bullet an about 12 grs. of Uniqne. Digger

sloughman · « **Reply #12 on:** January 22, 2007, 09:08:19 AM »

Well, I'm not a hand-rifle expert by any means. I can only speak of my gun and experience. I recently purchased a .44. for my youngest,7, to rifle hunt with and my 12 yr old to hunt the primitive weapon season. By the way, my 7 yr old was apprehensive about shooting it. But after the first shot he immediately shouted, "Can I shoot it again?"

Had to get some reloads because he was shooting everything I had up!
Recoil on the .44 is almost nothing. Anyways, I just bought a box of CCI/Speer in the 240 gr. gold dots. On a not so steady rest I was shooting 2" 3 shot groups. Not bad, considering the 125 yrd limit I'm putting on it. A friend uses the same load and they've killed 3 with it this year (within 100yrds) and the bullet went through and through. Again, these results are strictly from my experience, but for a kid, the .44 is great!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** January 22, 2007, 09:45:38 AM »

I feel an obligation to H&R to mention that one member recently got a new 44mag barrel that slugged at .430", so maybe they're getting better, much closer to .429" than the typical ..431"-.432" that's been reported by so many, but I'd sure like to see a few more like that or better yet, some .429"s! $:-\$

And as Digger pointed out, those that rechambered to .445SM, the extra velocity could explain why they're all happy with theirs even with the overbores. And, maybe we're just too picky about not getting MOA accuracy when 3MOA is plenty good enough for deer hunting at the range capability of the 44mag, most of us get the MOA accuracy out of our Handis and expect it out of the 44mag too.

Tim

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 22, 2007, 09:49:54 AM »

I believe that the reason the hotter loads are working better is that the higher pressure is "bumping up" the bullets to groove diameter.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** January 22, 2007, 09:52:38 AM »

I believe that too, but SS or Fred, don't remember which, said jacketed bullets don't obturate, which I find hard to believe.

Tim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** January 22, 2007, 10:10:56 AM »

I think I found the answer to that, as long as the bore isn't more than .0005" larger than bullet diameter, it will obturate and fill the bore.

Tim

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/bullets_ballastics/bullet_imbalance_twist.htm

Quote

When a bullet is fired from the cartridge case, it is under a great deal of pressure. Assuming that the barrel groove diameter is no larger than about .0005" over bullet diameter, the bullet will obturate in the barrel, conforming now to the diameter and geometry of the barrel. In the case of an oversized barrel, the obturation is probably not the full length of the bearing surface of the bullet. With a barrel that is the same size as bullet diameter--or undersized--the obturation will be complete and more of the bullet will assume the geometry of the barrel.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #17 on:** January 22, 2007, 10:42:17 AM »

I think most of the guy's that have the 44 reamed to 445 are quite happy with the power,accurcy,and recoil (445 300 gr. bullet at 1975 fps.).And everyone has said this load has less recoil than the 45 70 at the same power load. Warf's son Dale shoots the 445 with full throttle loads and he's about 12. My 4570 was more accurate with just about any load I tried,but when it was new,it kicked like a fear crazed mule,with the Winchester 300 gr. load. 4 or 5 shot's would be all you'd want,off the bench. Digger

Ranger J · « **Reply #18 on:** January 22, 2007, 01:29:48 PM »

Still like my 45/70 better.

RJ

MSP Ret · « **Reply #19 on:** January 22, 2007, 01:44:47 PM »

I also agree, I like my 45/70 better also. But then again they are not even in the same class, the 45/70 is heads and shoulders above the 44 Mag or the .44m Mag reamed longer into one of the magnum/magnum configurations. The 45/70 is a real rifle cartridge, not a handgun cartridge. I still will wait until I am sure the .44 barrels are the correct bore diameter before I buy one ( is the twist rate incorrect also? 1:38?) so I can shoot factory as well as light and mid power loads in it accurately....I am however happy you guys are having fun with your .44's....<><....

P.S. - I must have gotten a tamed 45/70, mine does not kick badly at all............

Pp.S. - now if there was program where they slugged and marked the bore diameter on the box or barrel so you would know when you bought one, or even if they let you slug the barrel before you bought it. If I could find a .429 or even a .430 I would probably buy one. And while I am on the subject, what twist rate would you like te see in the .44 Mag barrels? Forget the .444 Marlin chambering, I already have my 45/70. I am thinking of the handgun caliber .44 Mag in a Handi's longer barrel, what do you think the best twist rate for a Handi barrel in that caliber and would be?...<><....

JPH45 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 22, 2007, 02:13:23 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on January 21, 2007, 06:34:47 PM

If the 44mag Handi isn't legal for the MS primitive weapons season, there sure are a bunch there that say it is and have been using it for 2yrs!! From their state run wildlife forum...

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12797&SearchTerms=44,mag

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24495&SearchTerms=44,mag

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24598&SearchTerms=44,mag

Stuffit even called the MDWFP and confirmed that it was legal, along with the .450 Marlin!!

Quote
JPH45,
I believe someone is giving you erroneous information. What is your source? We got all kinds of variations of that same theme until we called Mississippi Game and Fish recently and the .44 Mag and .450 are definitely legal. Don't blame you for the errors though. For a while around here, you got a different story at every sporting goods store. Best to go to the horses mouth. This forum
MSGameFish moderated by the MS Game and Fish, has a sticky with the correct info.

stuffit

http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8863&PN=1

That would also mean the .500S&W Handi is legal too!! The sticky Stuffit refers to is below.

Tim

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10913
Quote
This an approved list that we have for the new public notice on the breechloading sigle shot rifles, kind or type manufactured before 1900 with an exposed hammer, .38 cal or larger.

This list is by no means exclusive. This is just a list comprised of commonly available rifles.

SINGLE SHOT BREECHLOADING RIFLES WHICH ARE PRIMATIVE WEAPONS:

Sharps rifles or replicas
Reminton Rollingblock rifles or replicas
Ballard rifles
Maynard rifles or replicas
Burnside carbines
Frank Wesson rifles
Remington Hepburn rifles
M1873-1888 Springfield (trapdoor) Rifles and Carbines and replicas
Snider (British) rifles or replicas
Wesson & Harrington 1871 Rifles
New England Firearms or Harrington & Richardson Handi Rifles
Winchester M1885 Hi Wall or Lo Wall rifles or replicas (Also Browning B78 or 1885)

SINGLE SHOT BREECHLOADING RIFLES WHICH ARE NOT PRIMATIVE WEAPONS!!!!

Ruger Number 1 and Number 3 (no exposed hammer)
Thompson Center Contender or Encore Carbines (designed after 1900)
Mossberg SSi Single Shot Rifle (no exposed hammer and designed after 1900)

'Well I be Dinged Danged, sumthin' I parently no nuthin' 'bout

Memory must be failin' worser that whut I thunk. Seems I 'member that when 'Ol Miss came up with this there was a restricshun on the chamberin's, I must 'ave confused that with the restricshuns on the vintage of the firearms involved. My 'pologies for intruden with my ignorance gent's.

Ranger J · « **Reply #21 on:** January 23, 2007, 08:11:07 AM »

"what do you think the best twist rate for a Handi barrel in that caliber and would be?..".<><..MSP

The twist on My .44 Deerfield is 1 in 20 and it will shoot cloverleafs all day long at 50 yards. The only problem you can't shoot cast and it needs a near max load to cycle well.
RJ