New ML Needed

[burnt3d]

ive had a knight, it shot well but i didnt like the expense of the disc's. then i bought a white, i liked it because you could shoot 50-60 shots without swabbing the barrel. the only problem i had was it shot too low at 50yds and wasnt a flat shooter. i didnt have the time to change the front sight or to scope the white. now im in the market for a new ml. im looking at the savage ml 2, omega, the new triumph, or the new knight kp-1. ill mostly be using the ml for target practice and whitetail deer hunting. id also like to compete in the Iowa games this year so the ml bmust be really accurate and shoot flat. at the games you have to shoot at 25, 50, and 100yds- 5 shots at each range. i cant afford the nula or the other high priced ml's. any suggestions? is the savage a high maintenance ml and is it too heavy when scoped? i know some of you guys will suggest the the white but id like a flat shooter for the Iowa games. i know there isnt a "perfect" ml and i know i will need to practice and work up a load. thanks....Tim

[Redhawk1]

no matter which M/L you decide to get, you will have to match the load for the sabot and bullet weight that shoots the best in your particular gun. There is no magic combination that we can give you, it takes a little work and trial and error on your part to find what shoot best.

 I am getting 1 inch groups out of both of my Encore muzzleloader's. What I did was work up loads and bullets that worked the best in each gun.
Get whatever gun you think you like the best and head to the range and start developing a good load. Good luck and let us know what you decide on getting.

[burnt3d]

the encore would be nice but i dont need to change barrels. is there any one ml i mentioned that stands out? i like the omega's but have heard the firing pins like to stick if you have a long day at the target range. is this true? maybe i should wait until the new knight and t/c come out. it wont be until spring when i buy one. id like to have the savage but i cant use smokeless in iowa. plus they weigh over 10# scoped. thanks....Tim

[Redhawk1]

the encore would be nice but i dont need to change barrels. is there any one ml i mentioned that stands out? i like the omega's but have heard the firing pins like to stick if you have a long day at the target range. is this true? maybe i should wait until the new knight and t/c come out. it wont be until spring when i buy one. id like to have the savage but i cant use smokeless in iowa. plus they weigh over 10# scoped. thanks....Tim

The Omega is a good choice also, my buddy has been shooting one for years without a problem. I had one for about 2 years and shot the heck out of it and never had a problem with the firing pin sticking. If you are not in a real hurry, look at all the new M/L's coming out.

[Oldsnow]

I have been shooting a Savage ML II for three years it will shoot one inch groups at 100 Yd's. if you do your part. It is a lot cheaper to shoot because you use less powder then in a standard muzzleloader that uses black powder. Clean up is easy when you use smokeless powder. I have shot all day at the range and never had to clean the barrel.

Do a search for,  Doug's Message Boards and go to the Savage shooting board.

Have fun and enjoy your self no matter what you are shooting.

[Redhawk1]

I have been shooting a Savage ML II for three years it will shoot one inch groups at 100 Yd's. if you do your part. It is a lot cheaper to shoot because you use less powder then in a standard muzzleloader that uses black powder. Clean up is easy when you use smokeless powder. I have shot all day at the range and never had to clean the barrel.

Do a search for,  Doug's Message Boards and go to the Savage shooting board.

Have fun and enjoy your self no matter what you are shooting.

I guess you missed the part where he said  "id like to have the savage but i cant use smokeless in iowa".

[Oldsnow]

The best thing about the Savage ML II is a person can shoot any kind of powder they choose and still have a great muzzleloader. This is something you can't do in a standard muzzleloader.

[Redhawk1]

The best thing about the Savage ML II is a person can shoot any kind of powder they choose and still have a great muzzleloader. This is something you can't do in a standard muzzleloader.

How easy is it to clean? I am talking about when smokeless is not used.

[Oldsnow]

It takes me a little longer to clean the Savage ML II, then my Encore or Omega. But with the Savage there is no blow back when using black powder or a substitute, like there is with other muzzleloaders.

[Redhawk1]

Thanks for the info..

[manofthe45]

Buy the new knight.  Everyone is hyping it up so much even though it isn't even out yet it must be the best.  Ok that off my chest. I would buy an omega (actually I already have one).  If I did decide to go with a non-T/C (not likley) I like the looks of the new lyman or this pains me greatly to say the the two NEF I worked with this fall for co-workers shot consistantly.  They just took alot of work to get their fav load. 


Personally I think that is the key to any ML.  Time, patients, the ability to walk away from max charges, and a little more time.  A little expendable cash to spend on several differant bullet types help too.  I truelly comes down to what is comfortable to you in a reliable brand.  I have had major mechanical problems with traditions and Cva.  I would not recommend any gun by them.  If you have a local shop with a large selection go and hold them all.  When you find one that fits you nicly, you can easily see the sights, etc. buy it .  Range time will tell you what it likes.  Then go shoot something.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

CVA/BPI are great guns, even TC throws out bad batchs of rifles. I spent $300 for a winchester x-150, $50 tru glow sights and am getting 1" groups at 100 yards. Love the rifle and wouldnt trade it for 3 of those over priced tc pro hunters.

[manofthe45]

Not trying to be a smart aleck here but is the x-150 the one that looks like a clone of the omega.  I have only shot one winchester and it was a shooter.  No disrespect meant here but you can get an omega for around 300 that already comes with decent sights.  The prohunter is an encore platform and yes they due cost a pretty penny, but does your winchester have the versitility of the encore.  You are comparing apples to oranges.  your winchester to the omega apples to apples.


CVA firearms are garbage[/b]

[kb]

I have three inlines: an MDM Buckwacka, TC Encore, and the Savave ML2.  All will now shoot 1.25 to 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards. 

The Buckwacka and the Encore shot minute of whitetail out of the box, but as far as moa, it took years and alot of tinkering to get it right.  The Savage with smokeless did it on the 13th shot out of the box.  Both the MDM and the TC have blowback issues, and have permanitly marred their respective scopes finish.  TC seems to cut their barrels tight (check out MMP's HPH24 sabot.  Its made for the TC bore).  The ML2 is a clean shooter.

I havent shot the ML2 with pyro or any other sub - only smokeless, but I can tell you that it has become my goto gun.  Get a ratcheting breechplug remover and you will not have to pull the bolt out.  (My only real complaint).  Check out Doug's Message boards for a Savage forum, that will tell you all about the savave you would ever want to know.  The board is full of tinkerers. 

If I were to do it all again, I would go for the Savage first, then the Omega second.  The encore wasnt worth the extra money for the ability to change barrels - that I almost never do.  IMHO the hinge concept is nice, but throws another variable into the accuracy equation.  A single tube is best.

Of the people shooting the subs out of the ML2, Ive heard good things, but its not as popular as shooting smokeless.  Its a shame you cant.

I hope this helps,

Kb

[Redhawk1]

I have three inlines: an MDM Buckwacka, TC Encore, and the Savave ML2.  All will now shoot 1.25 to 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards. 

The Buckwacka and the Encore shot minute of whitetail out of the box, but as far as moa, it took years and alot of tinkering to get it right.  The Savage with smokeless did it on the 13th shot out of the box.  Both the MDM and the TC have blowback issues, and have permanitly marred their respective scopes finish.  TC seems to cut their barrels tight (check out MMP's HPH24 sabot.  Its made for the TC bore).  The ML2 is a clean shooter.

Kb

Wow I can't believe it took you years to get your Encore to shoot 1.25 and 1 inch groups. I did it the first day at the range with each of my 5 Encore 50 Cal M/L barrels. My Encores did not have a blow back issue either. You must of not shot much or go to the range much. 

[elkstalkr]

I guess you missed the part where he said  "id like to have the savage but i cant use smokeless in iowa".

I don't see where he stated that.  Besides Smokeless powder is totally legal for hunting in IA.  Got some buddies that use it there.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

x-150 looks like a omega? Not sure where youre coming from on that but from my pic you can see something the omega doesnt have right off the bat, plus my stock is better built in the lug area and not flexy. Not knocking, but stating facts. My old sights were fine but im really near sighted and when  had my glasses on they were blurry. Sure its 8 1/4lbs but that tames the big bullets and mag loads. Only inline at the moment i'd consider is either the winchester apex or the traditions XTL .50 with thumbhole stock. That XLT was a sweet little setup.

[manofthe45]

x-150 looks like a omega?

That is why I asked there is a winchester that nearly mirrors the omega.  Yours is the one I did have a chance to shoot and yes it was a well built Ml.  As I remember it it was well balanced which I liked alot.  All ML are heavy compared to your standard rifle. 

[Busta]

Not trying to be a smart aleck here but is the x-150 the one that looks like a clone of the omega.  I have only shot one winchester and it was a shooter.  No disrespect meant here but you can get an omega for around 300 that already comes with decent sights.  The prohunter is an encore platform and yes they due cost a pretty penny, but does your winchester have the versitility of the encore.  You are comparing apples to oranges.  your winchester to the omega apples to apples.


CVA firearms are garbage[/b]

You are aware that the CVA and Winchester are both made by BPI? 

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Of course i know winchester name is under BPI. Doesnt affect me or the way the rifle shoots, I believe that the winchester grade is a big step up over the cva/new frontier brand. Im not one that likes hollow stocks due to the poor balance on many of the rifles that have stocks like that, but the x-150 was my first up to date muzzleloader when i bought it and so far, theres not one on the market offered to me that can in my personal opinion, fit me. The balance is great and i havnt found a rifle from cva,traditions or even tc that can come close to the x-150s balance. Im not really much for pistol grips on rifles but this one suprisingly fits my hand perfect and offers a steady hold on it. Primers are also easy to remove, the firing pin actually pulls it out almost all the way and just tilt the rifle up and the primer is out. Im doing one more upgrade and this is due to person choice, but i want to put a Pachmayr recoil pad on it, i have one on my 30-30 and just the devil out of their recoil pads. After that, theres nothing else to improve on. The stock recoil pad is nice but man, those pachmayr's are really nice.

[Busta]

BB455,

That wasn't directed at you, I know you are aware. The Apex and Kodiak are virtually identical. The local Gander Mountain was selling the X-150's with both .45 and .50 barreled receivers for around $200 to $225 last fall. I think these were originally .45's that weren't selling so they added the .50 and made a combo package.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

oh ok i wasnt quite sure. Im not sure but i dont see any .45 mler selling well. States like colorado for elk and moose need a 50cal or better to be legal. 45's are nice too but people are having problems with finding bullets that shoot well out of them.

[Redhawk1]

I guess you missed the part where he said  "id like to have the savage but i cant use smokeless in iowa".

I don't see where he stated that.  Besides Smokeless powder is totally legal for hunting in IA.  Got some buddies that use it there.

It is in his second post, I read it and here it is. Or did you skip his second post.

the encore would be nice but i dont need to change barrels. is there any one ml i mentioned that stands out? i like the omega's but have heard the firing pins like to stick if you have a long day at the target range. is this true? maybe i should wait until the new knight and t/c come out. it wont be until spring when i buy one. id like to have the savage but i cant use smokeless in iowa. plus they weigh over 10# scoped. thanks....Tim

[manofthe45]

CVA firearms are garbage[/b]
[/quote]

You are aware that the CVA and Winchester are both made by BPI? 
[/quote]


No I didn't but that is why I enjoy this forum.  Will still stand by my statement that CVA's are garbage.  I have had to many with serious mancanical problems.  I am not talking a mis-fire. I am talking about the gun going off when it ain't susposed too.

Thanks for the new info.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

TC's cant shoot concials, come with major blowby on the omegas, poor advertising on their "zero creep" triggers on the omegas and some other tc items. Black synthetic stocks are flexly and are known to crack in the lug area. 

 TC Encoe, i liked the style but when held to my shoulder, was 2" to short. And whats with these trigger guards on the TC brand? Do they not want to offer a hunter a trigger guard that allows the use of a glvoed trigger? and the tiny undersized hammers are asking for an accidental slip in wet weather.

[kb]

Wow I can't believe it took you years to get your Encore to shoot 1.25 and 1 inch groups. I did it the first day at the range with each of my 5 Encore 50 Cal M/L barrels. My Encores did not have a blow back issue either. You must of not shot much or go to the range much. 

I did shoot it alot.  I had tried lots of different loads, and found that it would shoot with 80g pyro 'P'.  I free floated the forearm, and put an 'oversized' hinge pin in.  If it hadnt given me such a hard time, I never would have picked up the Savage.  It is a good firearm, but took much tinkering to get there.

kb

[Redhawk1]

TC's cant shoot concials, come with major blowby on the omegas, poor advertising on their "zero creep" triggers on the omegas and some other tc items. Black synthetic stocks are flexly and are known to crack in the lug area. 

 TC Encoe, i liked the style but when held to my shoulder, was 2" to short. And whats with these trigger guards on the TC brand? Do they not want to offer a hunter a trigger guard that allows the use of a glvoed trigger? and the tiny undersized hammers are asking for an accidental slip in wet weather.

 I have seen guys shooting concials in the Omega and Encore with the QLA removed and they shot well, What about the Renegade and Hawkins, the shoot concials.
Blow by on the Omega's, most muzzleloader's get some blow by, it is not just related to T/C Omega.
Stock cracking, I have owned Omegas and Encores, never had a cracked stock, and I have owned a lot of them.
I use gloves with my encore and have no problem using the trigger, how big are your fingers?
Tiny hammers causing a slip in wet weather? If your finger is not on the trigger when cocking the hammer there won't be an issue. The trigger has to be depressed to case it to fire.

[kyelkhunter3006]

Encore Encore Encore......people either love them or hate them.  There doesn't seem to be any middle ground. 

I love how the gun feels and handles, and the overall design is good, just not the prettiest gun built.  I've had 5 of them.  Now, I haven't had a single one that would shoot less than 1.5" at 100 yds with ANYTHING.  I've had the .50, .223, .22 Hornet, .243, .25-06, 7mm-08 .270, .30-06.  A couple of heavy barrels and couple of sporter ones.  I didn't want to give up on them, but just could not break the 1" barrier. 

Yeah, I know, a deer isn't any deader with a MOA rifle than with a 3 MOA rifle under most shooting situations.  Everyone has goals though.   

I'll qualify this a bit by saying that these were all owned years ago, and there did seem to be some Q/C issues going on.  Looking back over the posts in the Encore forum from years back will show this.  Lots of people were having problems.  I haven't shot any new Encore's, but most of what I've read on here and other sites seems to be favorable.  I admit that the Pro-Hunter calls to me all the time, and I know that I might give in eventually.  Just not yet.

I have an Omega and have no issue with blow-by at all.  The trigger it crisp, light, and no creep at all.  One of the best factory trigger's I've used.  I can say that about all of the triggers on T/C and Knight rifles I've had.  Even the Encores. 

[elkstalkr]

burnt,

If you are speaking about Iowa hunting you are misinformed.  You can use smokeless in IA.

Redhawk,

I stand corrected.  I overlooked that post.  Sorry.

[Redhawk1]

burnt,

If you are speaking about Iowa hunting you are misinformed.  You can use smokeless in IA.

Redhawk,

I stand corrected.  I overlooked that post.  Sorry.

Hay no problem, I just wondered if you missed his second post.  It is easy to do when you read a lot of posts here.