Author Topic: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon  (Read 2427 times)

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Offline hardertr

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Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« on: January 28, 2007, 04:03:23 PM »
Would someone please humor me and explain your fixations with the "choose to lose" and "cut and run" punch lines?  I understand that you are inferring that a withdrawal would go down as a "loss" in some "Great Wars in World History" book, but I was wondering if you could explain your position so that I may better understand it.

By saying a withdrawal/retreat/re-deployment is not an option.....exactly WHAT do you propose we do at this point??  Do you know of some magical endless supply of troops who are armed to the gills and trained to fight urban warfare??  Do you suggest we initiate a nuclear attack (surely you are aware of the repercussion)??  How about biological warfare...surely WE would be able to contain the area of infestation with our wisdom and ingenuity??

I'm asking because I am honestly sick of folks suggesting there is a sensible way to win this mess, but really offering nothing more than a fairytale tactic that would end up getting us ALL killed by the other world super-powers.

I'm not oposed to removing ALL of our troops...and letting the region implode.  Sure the price of oil would sky-rocket, and the spoiled life as we know it (over reliance on gasoline) would be changed forever, and most definetly the extremists would take over the entire region, but at least we would have a better idea of where the enemy is.  I'm also not oposed to the idea of immersing the region in an all out American (and allied.....as if we had any other than Great Brittian) occupation.  WE could declare martial law....and force Iraq into sumbmission....but we don't have the 200,000+ EXTRA troops to do this properly.

What are your suggestions
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Offline bigchuckie

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2007, 07:33:05 PM »
Let our troops do what they do best. Kill people and break things War  is not PC change the rules of engagement Kick out CNN
and all of the America hating media.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2007, 08:15:58 PM »
Quote
Let our troops do what they do best. Kill people and break things War  is not PC change the rules of engagement Kick out CNN and all of the America hating media.


+1

Quote
I understand that you are inferring that a withdrawal would go down as a "loss" in some "Great Wars in World History" book,

hardertr, I don't think anyone is worried about some history book.  The worry is that by cutting and running we embolden the terrorists.  Bin Laden said himself that Clinton's cutting and running in Mogadeshu was what convinced him to attack the WTC.  If we don't show we have the stomach for war, then war will be rained down upon us (as has already happened and which you seem to have already forgotten).
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2007, 01:20:36 AM »
Casull:  I agree with you.  The more weakness you show a madman the more he will attack.  That is basic predatory knowledge.  The demigods don't have the stomach to deal with predators like that.  They prefer the body count to determine our posture (bent over or standing straight).

I feel we should flatten sadr city - one block at a time, and hit the Sunni strongholds until they too are flattened.  Then we can let the iraqi government take over what is left and get the hay out.  We should leave the message that if you want to fight with America we will simply destroy you and let your enemys pick over your bones. 

As for a middle east out of control - it would spread faster than we can imagine and land right on our shores, again.  If anyone thinks the madmad in iran, or the one in n. korea will stop at nuclear power plants and not sell briefcase sized nuke technology to islamic terrorists to use against America, they are insane. 

Lots of folk, and the demigods in particular, do not like Bush  because he makes his own decisions.  They have to rule by committee, which is a losing fight before it starts.  People love to vilify the decisive people becuase they cannot make the same sort of decisions themselves.

Either we finish the job by halting their fanaticism with the reality that they cannot continue, or we cut out and run.  The demigods are run by people like cindy sheehan, someone who has no respect for herself or the ultimate price her son paid for freedom.  We could always bring our troops home to guard our borders and send the demigods to iraq...............it would most certainly be a slaughter.  JMHO.  Mikey.

Offline magooch

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2007, 03:58:22 AM »
Hardertr, why not have the quiters explain what their strategy is to deal with the aftermath of abandoning the upstart, democratically elected Iraqi government at a point where they might be very close to taking charge.  No one has an easy answer, but to throw it all away now, seems like the heighth of folly.

Yes, at some point, we might have to cut our losses, but I'm not sure we've reached that point yet, when you consider what's at stake.  From my point of view, we've been at this far longer than I would have ever imagined that the impatience of the American people would have stood for.

I have to wonder where we would be right now if the disloyal left would have been less interested in their petty politics and gotten behind the effort to win this war and not given encouragement to the terrorists and insurgents.

In any case, this war has not been the boondogle that the left tries to make it.  It has totally rid the world of its number one most notorious, murderous dictator, destroyed the army that he used to invade and pilage a neighbor, took down a regime that promised to be a huge festering sore for decades to come and in spite of what anyone thinks, this war has set terrorism back, if for no other reason because it has killed a list of top al Qaeda rats that would fill a book.
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Offline S.S.

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2007, 06:54:17 AM »
The Actions in Iraq and Afghanistan were lost for sure last November. It is just a matter of time before the Democrats cut funding. The world has forgotten what a War is. If our troops would have been able to fight instead of having to be politically correct, it would have lasted a couple of months over there at the most. A couple of Million Iraqis And Afghan/Taliban would be out of the terrorist business too. Iraq and Afghanistan is what happens when politicians "Play" soldier. They really suck at it. I think that bombing them back into the stone-age would have worked quite well. The rest of the world may hate us worse for it, but I would wager that they would have kept their mouths shut about it if they did ! The rest of the world is slowly pulling America's teeth. We are definately not what we used to be. And we just keep on putting people into office that allow it. To win this we need to do two things that will never happen. We need to cut off the insurgents money by occupying Saudi Arabia and Cut off the Brains behind it by wiping Pakistan off the face of the earth.
Pakistan has been playing us for fools every since this all started. And doing a good job of it to boot.
We, unfortunately, can Coulda', Shoulda', Woulda' this to death, But the fact of the matter is that I believe it is too late now. The Terrorists and the countries that back them have waited us out and the end is in sight.
When Our troops are pulled out, the Taliban will cross back over into Afghanistan from their buddies homes in Pakistan and start anew. And some other psycho will take control of Iraq. Sure, A lot of the "Bad Guys" died, But there are Millions more world wide just waiting to take their place. I think this will just about finish the United States as a Credible world power. Future enemies now know for sure that all they have to do is kill a few thousand and they will win.. One thing else that is really worring me is how to physically remove our troops from Iraq. I have concerns that it will be like when Saigon fell in Viet-Nam.. Every insurgent in that country will be gunning for the last thousand or so to be pulled out.
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Offline powderman

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2007, 07:02:34 AM »
MIKEY. Ya make too much sense. Last night I watched a preacher by the name of HAGEE from Texas. He was preaching about the evils of islam. I've seen and heard another one on tv telling the truth, not very pc of them, and I love it. About time Christian preachers start telling the truth about these Godless, subhuman, scum. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
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Offline S.S.

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2007, 07:21:16 AM »
Powderman, I don't think most folks understand how much of a religious war this really is.
They see politics instead of religion when it comes to Islam. Lucifers greatest trick was making mankind believe that he doesn't exist. It is pretty apparent now that he does because his millions of followers are rearing their ugly heads now and calling it Islam. We see this war on the News in other countries, but it is just a matter of time before it is in our own streets. This is not a war between two political ideologies, it is basically good and evil to me.
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Offline powderman

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2007, 09:19:16 AM »
S.SUMNER. You are right Sir, it is good, vs evil, God, vs satan and his followers. I hope that the rest of the world wakes up and sees these Godless sobs for the rabid dogs that they are and treats them accordingly. Their mosques are their lairs where hatred and death are preached and taught. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline hardertr

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2007, 10:07:42 AM »
If this is a religious war....why are ALL Christians not up in arms, side by side with the troops forced to fight for YOUR war?

I did not join the Army to become a jihadist, but it appears as though this is the role we are expected to play for those of you on the sidelines.   ::)

From a purely military standpoint, we will not win this war with a lack of direction.  GW is dragging his feet for several reasons.  First, he does not want "another Vietnam" comment in HIS section of the history books.  Secondly, HE HAS NO PLAN.  When he states he "will not discuss a plan B..." it's because he doesn't even have a PLAN A, much less a plan B.  Thirdly, he is hoping for another 9-11 style attack on America to get the US fired up again.  This won't happen because the exremists are VERY smart.  By keeping the war out of the US, they know the public will turn on the administration.  They are fighting a psychological war with the public, and winning.

What would I suggest as a plan?  We need to stop pussy-footing around with the Iraqis.  There is really no motive for them to start carrying their own weight toward freedom...the Americans will do it for them, and pump BILLIONS of dollars into their economy to boot.  I think it's rediculous that some call this travesty a "victory" because there has been no attack in the US.  They are playing us like a fiddle.  The last thing the Iraqis want is for us to leave!  If we did, THEY would have to fight for their freedom.  And for those of you that think the Iraqis are fighting arm-in-arm with the US troops..... you have no idea.  The news agencies might glorify their efforts, but if you look at the scene in the background...you'll see it's the American soldiers fighting, while the Iraqis stand back in a gaggle.  Even worse, I am hearing stories of Anti-American slogans posted in many of the Iraqi police headquarters.  What we SHOULD do, is give them until the end of the year to take over a minimum of 90% of their own security.  For those of you that want to "win"....we should initiate a draft, and swarm Iraq with 200,000+ troops to clense the country of insurgents.  WHAT...you don't want a draft???  You don't want the National Guard sent over????  BUT, you want a win???   ::)

Once the end of the year rolls around, they either put up or shut up.  The second part of our plan should involve a re-deployment to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey, Turkmenistan (they always wanted to be part of the "team") and western Afghanistan.  We would have the area surrounded, and be able to re-deploy back into the region if needed.  Face it, we will NEVER be out of that area.

SO...there's MY plan...what is yours?
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Offline alsaqr

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2007, 10:29:45 AM »
As a military retiree, i hate this war on the cheap.  It has been about money since before Iraq was invaded.  The civilian con artists in the defense dep't steadfastly refused to listen to seasoned military leaders.  So they did an invasion on the cheap.  Sure we took the place with no trouble.  A force half the size could have taken Iraq. 

Once Iraq was taken there were not enough troops to secure the borders and the ammunition depots.  All the ammunition depots in Iraq were systematically looted.  Most of the explosives used in IEDs come from Saddam's looted depots.   Then Islamic crazies started coming over the Iran, Syria and Saudi borders.  These foreigners stirred up the hatred between the Sunni and Shiite factions and now we have a full blown civil war on our hands.  By the way, most of the suicide bombers are Saudi. 

It is still about money.  It is still war on the cheap.  No, we cannot just pull out and leave the place.   Bush should mobilize the entire national guard and reserve forces and recall military retirees under age 65.    He should send  200,000 more troops to Iraq and get it done.    Unfortunately, Bush will do just enough to keep from losing the wat-on his watch. 

May God bless and protect our fine troops. 

Offline Casull

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2007, 12:42:20 PM »
Quote
Thirdly, he is hoping for another 9-11 style attack on America to get the US fired up again.  This won't happen because the exremists are VERY smart.  By keeping the war out of the US, they know the public will turn on the administration.  They are fighting a psychological war with the public, and winning.

Nice theory.  Unfortunately for you, these bast*rds have tried other attacks here and have been stopped.  If they were concerned with not rousing public sentiment, then what the h*ll were they trying to do with the videotaped beheadings.  Sorry, but your theory just doesn't make sense or hold up to the facts.

Quote
The last thing the Iraqis want is for us to leave!  If we did, THEY would have to fight for their freedom.  And for those of you that think the Iraqis are fighting arm-in-arm with the US troops..... you have no idea.  The news agencies might glorify their efforts, but if you look at the scene in the background...you'll see it's the American soldiers fighting, while the Iraqis stand back in a gaggle.  Even worse, I am hearing stories of Anti-American slogans posted in many of the Iraqi police headquarters.


You can't even keep your story straight in a single paragraph.  Let's see, the Iraqi's don't want us to leave, but we're getting anti-American slogans in the Iraqi police headquarters.  Well, which is it?  Do they want us or not.  As far as the news agencies gloriying the efforts of our troops and the Iraqi soldiers, what planet are you living on.  I haven't seen any news agency glorifying the effort (well, maybe Fox, just a little bit).  Man, I just can't follow your ramblings.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2007, 01:38:03 PM »
  I agree with virtually all the answers.
    
  We should fight a war as if it were a war..not some kind of PC game ! That is the one major fault I find with the way GW has pursued this endeavor. Those Satan inspired terrorists respect only one thing...OVERWHELMING FORCE !
  
    Thopse Al Queda types are simply the lowest type cowards..they are driven to do bold things sometimes...through dogmatic fanaticism...but they are still cowards and bullies..and it is clearly exposed in the way they treat women and little girls !

   We really should take the kid gloves off ! They do have a great weakness..their devotion to Satan and his ways..his rules.

  We should use hollowpoint bullets with the cavities filled with pig fat..and let them know such is the case !
  
  We should take convicted terrorists and bury them in an unmarked grave..in a sealed container with a slab of bacon and tell them that is what happens to terrorists and the remains of stupidcide bombers !
  
  We should pack shrapnel bombs with awful from slaughter houses...that way they die "unclean"..

   Yes, I sound brutal...but practical..

  When we are truly at war, we should exploit any weakness the enemy has...just as the enemy is presently exploiting the freedoms this country offers.

   We should face up to who this enemy really is... and fight him that way..taking advantage of his superstitions.

   When I visited my grandson and his fellow Marines during thanksgiving, I polled them about some of the poignant questions being posed here at home..

    Question: " Do we go longer, go stronger or go home ?  
    
    Answer:..To a man they said "Go Stronger..and longer if necessary !"
     These men ( A Marine Special Ops unit), said they had lost some of their "brothers" and sure don't want their sacrifice to be spat upon..

    Question: Resurrect the draft ?  

    Answer: "No thanks; we don't want someone supposed to be covering our back..to be someone that doesn't want to be there !"
  
     "If needed in the future, they perhaps could work some "rear eschelon" jobs..but not for combat ! "

    

.... So..I pose a couple rhetorical questions for our forum members:

      What would happen if we chose to "cut and run" ?  ..What happened to all of  Europe in 1939, when those countries preferred to cut and run in the face of Hitler ?

   The US congress decided to "choose to lose" in Vietnam and cut off funds for troops fighting in the field..so Vietnam was lost !
  Notice: Our troops never lost a major battle there and were on the verge of winning* the "whole enchilada" when the cowardly congress..pulled the rug from under them..
  
   That's what happens when they "choose to lose"..

  Remember; It was by an overwhelming vote in congress that our troops were committed to depose Saddam's brutal dictatorship !
  
    Now congress threatens to "choose to lose" as they did in Vietnam !

   Fortunately; the Viet Cong were content to take Vietnam and try to forget us ! It would not be so with these dervshes..they would soon be after us..just as they were when the twin towers were twice attacked..our embassies in Kenya & other places were bombed and the USS Cole attacked...even before this conflict started .

  Let's face it; the terms "cut and run" and "choose to lose"  are both self-explanatory..without further elaboration !

  Believe me..those Mariones I spent a Thanksgiving afternoon with are not at all receptive to either of those ideas..and they were all combat vets fresh back from Al Anbar..

   And i know it is not an Army vs Marines thing..I have a nephew, a Sgt with the Army engineers, now on his third deployment to Iraq ( now in Tikrit) who agrees with those Marines !

       Hey Guys..I was just interrupted by a call from my Marine grandson just back to Camp lejeune from Ft Polk..I asked him for any words to anyone that agrees with the idea of deserting those who need our help in Iraq..

  His answer ?.. "Don't fall for that enemy propaganda !" ( He redeploys to Al Anbar in a couple months)

        * In his memoirs, written a few years after the conflict the VC commander, Gen. Giap stated that they were about to give up, when folks like Kerry and Fonda encouraged them to continue fighting. Finally, congress cut of the funds for the effort..so it was easy going for him..just a few small attacks..and wait
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2007, 02:01:47 PM »
  I just caught that quote that Sumner highlighted.." And for those of you who think Iraqis are fighting arm-in-arm with US troops...you have no idea.."

   YeeHaw !!..I just explained that I had long conversations with a batch of Special Operations Marines..who were training embedded Iraqi troops..Harder..you have no idea..or someone has given you the wrong idea.
 
   Now, these Marines, especially my Grandson..didn't like many things about these guys, starting with their lack of morals; but all agreed they were willing to fight alongside our Marines !
 
   They lacked some polishing off in training..but they were eager to learn and were willing to fight !

   Please catch Fox News tonight...200 terrorists, both Shiites and Sunnis..killed today in Iraq in a raid spearheaded by Iraqi government forces..with coalition troops along as advisers...

   Perhaps things are starting to jell ! Give it a chance..don't even think about capitulating to a bunch of terrorists !

             As far as anti-American posters in police stations..don't know...but the news tonight showed several hundred malcontents in our nations capitol carrying anti-American signs and shouting anti-American slogans..
 
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline powderman

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2007, 04:12:46 PM »
IRONGLOW. Agreed Sir. The letters we get from our soldiers is nothing like the libby news media talks about. We just lost a local man. His wife had printed parts of letters from him before he was killed. She was proud of him for his dedication to America and said he strongly believed in the job he was doing and making a difference in iraq. He was a family man and a warrior who gave his life fighting the Godless ones. All the dumcraps and demonstrators are doing is giving the Godless ones hope, just as they did in vietnam. They are costing American lives, not saving them. The war in nam was drug out thanks to them, thousands of Americans died needlessly because of their anti American stance.
How in the hell could ANYONE think, let alone  say that president Bush wants another 9-11 type attack on America??? Thats disgusting. What possible reasoning could anyone use to say that??? Theres no doubt in my mind that we would have been hit several times more if it weren't for the aggressive actions taken by our president. The Godless ones will hit us again, but at least GW is fighting them. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
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Offline magooch

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2007, 04:07:32 AM »
People who say they believe that the President and the DOD hasn't considered every possible scenario and plan are just shooting off their mouths.  The truth is that they agonize over every decision they have to make, but in the end they have to do something, even if it turns out to be wrong.  No one is blessed with perfect foresight and war has more unpredictable and unexpected events than most any other undertaking.

The one true thing about war is that it should be quick and overwhelming, before the antis get their silly crap together and with the help of the lying liberal media, convince the sheeple that it's all wrong.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2007, 05:32:01 AM »
Quote
People who say they believe that the President and the DOD hasn't considered every possible scenario and plan are just shooting off their mouths.  The truth is that they agonize over every decision they have to make, but in the end they have to do something, even if it turns out to be wrong.  No one is blessed with perfect foresight and war has more unpredictable and unexpected events than most any other undertaking.

The one true thing about war is that it should be quick and overwhelming, before the antis get their silly crap together and with the help of the lying liberal media, convince the sheeple that it's all wrong.


+1
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Offline rockbilly

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2007, 07:10:11 AM »
Bottom line, our leaders are going to screw around until we are force to retreat like we did in Nam.  What they fail to realize is, continuing to do so will result in a war on American soil in the near future.  Every major power in the world knows the American people do not have the stomach for war, and will take advantage of that theory at every given opportunity.

I don't like Bush, and think he was wrong in invading Iraq, but now that we are there we need to stay the course and complete the job.  If we pull out now it will cost many, many lives in the future.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2007, 09:35:54 AM »
  This war would have been over long ago if the sodiers were allowed to do there jobs. I beleave that we should crush any resistance we encounter. I also would like to see a chemical introduced in the whole middle easts water supply that would sterilize all these animals when we do leave. 50 years from now there would be no more muslimes around to cause all the trouble they have been.

  Soldiers are not for keeping peace they are for killing people and breaking things. The reason we are in this situation is that the Iraqi people are more afraid of the terroists than us. They will not turn in these animals because there are no reprocussions for it. They are no different than the german or jap citicens in WW2. If we were to start leveling every neighborhood where terrorists attack our troops. The Iraqi's would start turn in in these animals. They are helping the terrorists by there inaction therefore they are the enemy.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline wncchester

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2007, 10:37:08 AM »
You ask questions.  I will address your questions and ask a few of you.  

Part of our "problem" has been the president's desire to keep casualties down and placate the drive-by media, meaning the propaganda arm of the Democrat Party.  Those have been shown to be hopeless goals but it surely seemed like desirable goals at first.  Wasn't that worth a try, even with yapping Democrats bitting at Bush's heels every step of the way?

A second "problem" has been that the president isn't clarivoiant.  But neither are those Democrats who want us all to think they are and have been all along, that's why they voted for the war before they voted against it.  Are those steel-willed weinies the "leaders" America deserves?

Surely our experience in grammer school taught even the dummiest of us that trying to deal with bullies by being nice to them and giving them our lunch money won't work.  Most of us learned that kicking the living sh++ outta bullies will get them to behave better.  That also works with bully contries and ideologies too.  Or am I wrong, maybe we should all just be nice to the bullies?

For sure, rolling into a fetal ball and begging a home intruder not to hurt us very much doesn't work.  But blowing large holes in their standing carcases will stop their bad intentions, everytime.  It will work with bad people in Irag too, we just need to stay put and let our military do it without such restrictive "rules of engagement" that forbid shooting at their slimy mosques and on their silly "holy days".  They have a mind set that says such rules are our weakess and they make it so.  They don't just kill us, they kill each other without thought.  So, I think we at home need the mind set to let our boys change their murderous minds into scattered bits.  Do you disagree, or am I just unkind?

A lot of why we are there is to take the fight to them on their turf.  So, right now, we are killing them there.  By what jump of logic are we supposed to think that they would become nice and not bother us here, again, if we abandon our efforts to give the Iraqi people a chance?  If you get your "facts" from the drive-by media, who have invested themselves in the idea of a "quagmire" and failure, you could perhaps believe that.  But you would have to do as they have done which is to suspend all reason.  Where do you get your "facts" of how we can't win it if we stick to the task until their government forces come up to speed?  Bet it's not from our military.

Tactical mistakes have been made in Washington.  But, I don't think making mistakes in such a new and unexplored project immediately disqualify those who are giving it an honest effort.  Or should Bush simply bow out now and let the Democrat's, none of whom have a clue as to how to do what must be done, lead us to another galllant defeat as they did in 'Nam?  We could have easily won there too if Johnson/Macnamira hadn't screwed things up so completely from the start.  

Much of our being in Iraq is indeed oil, or rather the core of our economy and that of the world.  Is that a bad thing?  Does it not matter to your side that poverty levels would explode, here and around the world?  That many more people would be hungry and sickness would be untreated?  Or do you think it would simply be that half or us would have to start riding bikes but everything else would be the same or would it just serve us right to be as poor as Sudan?  The kindness of liberals is appalling.

Mistakes have been made but we are learning, both the military and the administration.  Part of any new project, even shooting and reloading requires a significant period of learning.  Sometimes even simple things may take years of trying before we get it right.  Do you think reloading is more difficult than developing a feel to deal with the illogical minds of the middle east?  Or do you believe, as does the drive-by media because the Dems have told them so, that the Iraqis don't want a stable society, they just want us to leave so they can kill and be killed in peace?

I have two family members in the sand box now and know others who do.  I can assure you our GIs don't feel that things are hopeless as the Dems and their media say.  Others here have assured you of the same thing.  So, who you gonna believe, the guys who are there or those who have bet their political and broadcast/print futures on our failure there?

Turn our guys loose to gain the Iraqis time to come up to speed and we will win.  If we decide to lose and walk/run/deploy away, we will never see a decrease in the bloodshed, there. or here or anywhare else.  Or do you think we can run and hide, then kiss 'em into submission?

Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline ironglow

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2007, 12:12:18 PM »
Beautifully put, wncchester !!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline WylieKy

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2007, 12:58:17 PM »
Playing devil's advocate (that's for you, Powderman ;D),

09/11-Deaths 2973

US and Allied soldiers killed in Afghanistan-          518
US and Allied soldiers wounded in Afghanistan   5994
Afghanistan civilian casualties-                        40000 as a minimum.

US and Allied soldiers killed in Iraq-                    3334
US and Allied soldier wounded in Iraq-             47657
Iraqi civilian casualties-                                  55-60k as a minimum.

The US alone and ignoring all other casualties, has lost more than were killed on 09/11.  The US has spent enough money in Iraq and Afghanistan to build a WTC complex in every state.  There are about as many or more terrorists now as when we began, their average age has just dropped.....  The US has done almost nothing to prevent attacks from happening on US soil (securing our borders, inspecting incoming cargo, etc....) Our presence in Iraq is indeed drawing the young, dumb, and full of explosives into Iraq instead of the US, but no one is going to convince me that Osama with his intelligence and monetary resources couldn't plan and execute a successful attack out of Mexico if he really wanted to. 

I'm not saying we should cut and run.  I'm not saying we shouldn't kill them all.  I'm not saying we are in Iraq for the wrong reasons.  I am just putting the numbers out for discussion.

WylieKy

This that I do, I do by my own free will.

Offline Casull

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2007, 03:43:57 PM »
Quote
The US alone and ignoring all other casualties, has lost more than were killed on 09/11

So, when we reached 2973 casualties we were supposed to quit and go home?

Quote
The US has done almost nothing to prevent attacks from happening on US soil

So, that must mean the Muslim terrorists have just quit (since we haven't had any attacks in the last five years)

Quote
Our presence in Iraq is indeed drawing the young, dumb, and full of explosives into Iraq instead of the US

Well, all right!!

Quote
but no one is going to convince me that Osama with his intelligence and monetary resources couldn't plan and execute a successful attack out of Mexico if he really wanted to. 


So, does that mean he doesn't really want to attack us anymore (since he hasn't done it)?  Must say, I'm not convinced by your arguments.
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Offline fe352v8

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2007, 08:12:22 PM »
Actions have consequences, and one of the consequences of invading Iraq, and not securing it was to further destabilize a rather already unstable area of the world.  Iraq was secular and even in its’ weakened condition it was a check and balance against the nationalistic extremist in Iran.  While it easy to draw parallels between the current situation in Iraq and or experiences in Viet Nam, such as it deteriorating into an ill-conceived mess, that is where the similarity ends.  Leaving Viet Nam did not result in a tactical or strategic loss that harmed our interest, to any great degree.  Our greatest loss aside from lives and money was morale and image.

The only thing I think Bush and his band of chicken hawks have been correct about is that failure really isn’t an option.  The fact that the invasion is proving to have been unwarranted, at least for the reasons given, is immaterial.  The reality is we have greatly contributed to the political instability of a region, that by a geologic fluke, contains most of the world proven and easily accessible petroleum reserves, the uninterrupted supply of which, is vital to maintaining the industrial worlds economic health.  To leave this area destabilized, is a direct threat to the world’s well being, and is thus unacceptable

Rightly or wrongly, our presence also serves as a focal point for nationalistic extremists.  I use the term nationalistic, because world powers, mostly western, have interfered in this regions politics even before the discovery of oil.  Their religious institutions were one of the few places where they were allowed self-determination and expression.  In the same way that the American civil rights movement was borne out of the black churches, their movement was borne out of the Mosques.  Unfortunately for us, their movement has not emulated Gandhi’s example of non-violence, but more closely follows the example of the Klan’s, and Bull Conner’s’, reaction to the civil right’s movement.

You asked for solution, this is mine.  It is two pronged, and would require simultaneous execution.

First 20,000 troops of which, maybe 6,000 are actually front line combat troops is not going to make much of a difference, we need enough combat troops to effectively disarm the country and secure its borders.  These will have to be US troops, as Bush has screwed this up so bad, and alienated so many potential allies, that no one else wants to play with him anymore.  We are talking on the order of 200,000 to 300,000 troops.  At the same time we need to stop the paternalistic attitude we seem to project, and talk to the regions leaders as equals, instead of dictating to them. Recognize and respect the political system they have developed and adopted, and be thankful it is not ours.  The people of this region are entitled to self-determination.  I believe people get the government they deserve or want, eventually.

Couching this in terms of a holy war only serves to fuel their resolve and gives credence to the radicals among them.  Our not talking with or recognizing some of the regions leaders because they undiplomatically call for our destruction while we diplomatically invite regime change only insures that neither side will come to terms with the reality on the ground.

We may be able to prevail militarily, but they have the luxury of time.  They live in the area, they were there before we came they will be there after we leave.  Thus the solution must in the end be political, and self determined.  It is difficult to have a political resolution in the midst of a war.  Any opportunity for success is severely limited, by time, and unfortunately I think we have about run out. 

If we do not stabilize Iraq, and begin talking with Iran and other countries in the region, then when we leave Iraq, the Shia majorities of both countries will align themselves, and with the revenue from their petroleum products, they will be able to fund the Shia majorities of the other countries in the region and topple the Sunni minorities, that rule many of them and while we may place an embargo, against them and call them Godless scum, emerging countries like China and India, will happily ignore their chosen belief systems and buy their oil to fuel their continued industrial growth.  If these two countries decide that America’s interests and theirs are at odds, what will we do?  Between them they have almost half the worlds population, they have a high technical ability, China just shot down a satellite, India is a player in software development, China is a huge electronics manufacturer, and both have nuclear weapons.  Not stabilizing Iraq is not an option, and 20,000 troops or a solely military action is not a solution.  But hey I'm just an atheistic, secular humanist, liberal, so don't worry Bush has a plan.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

life is no joke but funny things happen

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Offline NONYA

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2007, 01:03:59 AM »
the only way to be sure we have killed the right ragheads is to kill them all,im ok with that,hell ill even do some reloading for em.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
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Offline WylieKy

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2007, 04:21:36 AM »
The US alone and ignoring all other casualties, has lost more than were killed on 09/11

So, when we reached 2973 casualties we were supposed to quit and go home?

No, but when do the losses become unacceptable? Answer: When we stop making progress.  This war has been one of the most amazing tactical victories in military history.  The casualty figures are so far in our favor the President and Generals should have their praises sung from the highest mountains.... Strategically, however, our situation is becoming untenable.  We have gone from savior to occupier with all of the negative connotations.

Quote
The US has done almost nothing to prevent attacks from happening on US soil

So, that must mean the Muslim terrorists have just quit (since we haven't had any attacks in the last five years)

I think that if the billions spent in Iraq would have been spent on physical national security, we would have little to worry about from either foreign terrorists or illegal immigrants.  Illegal immigrants, by the way, kill more people every year than all of the US terrorist attacks put together.  The best way to keep yourself from being assaulted in your home is to get good doors and window, a security system, and a 12ga by the nightstand.  It wouldn't make much sense to get robbed and walk out of the house with the 12ga, leaving the doors and windows open while you walk through the neighborhood, shooting people that look like they might want to rob you at some point in time.

Quote
but no one is going to convince me that Osama with his intelligence and monetary resources couldn't plan and execute a successful attack out of Mexico if he really wanted to. 

So, does that mean he doesn't really want to attack us anymore (since he hasn't done it)? 

Pretty much, yes.  I think he is sitting in an opulent cave or stretch of beach somewhere, laughing his a$$ letting us do his fund raising and writing his recruitment tapes for him. How many of you on this board would be willing to travel to a Muslim country and start killing until you are killed?  Since you are still here, I would venture to say few or none.  However, if China invaded us tomorrow, how many would become armature snipers, bombers, gorillas?  I would, and I would say many here would as well.  There are always going to be terrorists, from all religions and political spectrum's.  Islam is a more fertile breeding ground than most, but it is still going to be a fraction of a percentage of the people that will be willing to uproot, travel thousands of miles, and die.  Most people are just too busy living for that crap.  They may talk the talk, but few walk the walk.  There are thousands of terrorists in Iraq.  Why have we had only a handful of attacks in the US over the last few decades? 

WylieKy
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Offline magooch

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2007, 04:38:53 AM »
wncchester has said it all.  All that's left to say is dittos.  You the man.
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Offline S.S.

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2007, 05:35:57 AM »
As I said above, most people do not remember what a real war is like.
 
Quote:
"the Battle of the Somme is famous chiefly on account of the loss of 58,000 British troops (one third of them killed) on the first day of the battle, 1 July 1916, which to this day remains a one-day record.  The attack was launched upon a 30 kilometre front, from north of the Somme river between Arras and Albert, and ran from 1 July until 18 November, at which point it was called off."

58,000 casualties in one day!!! One third of which were killed or roughly 19,300 men!

That was a real war. Folks I have notice that a lot of the Anti-War fervor is being caused by the parents of enlisted personell. They though that they would not have to pay for college if their "kids" went in. Sure, let the Gov't pay for their college but oh no, they can't really go to fight can they?
Most of the Soldiers I know who have went to Iraq and Afghanistan were and are proud of their service ! A few were a little disgruntled at first but once they began doing their jobs, they were proud of what they are doing. Others really need to quit speaking for them.

Quote:
"I did not join the Army to become a jihadist, but it appears as though this is the role we are expected to play for those of you on the sidelines." 

I am only on the sidelines because I am too old to serve again. My service now is trying to send those in the field a little taste of home every now and then with care packages. Where are you stationed Hardertr. ?
Iraq or afghanistan ? We will see if we can help your unit too. Remember though,
Some of us who are now "sidelined" have put our time in, We know what it is like. At least your war will have a name, Some of ours will never be found in the History books.... Maybe the Hero's in this one will get the recognition they deserve instead of being forgotten in a "Top Secret " folder somewhere on a Generals desk. I wish I could tell you a story about service of ones country my friend, but unfortunately I can't...
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2007, 06:11:00 AM »
Quote
But hey I'm just an atheistic, secular humanist, liberal, so don't worry Bush has a plan.

Yup Jon, to me it sure seems you are all those things. Which makes it even that much harder to say it but....Damn it man you're dead on this time. Not much to argue with from that post so I won't.

One thing we all must sooner or later realize and I think our leaders knew going in is that the muslims do not even know what freedom and demoncracy are nor do they wish to have either. They are perfectly happy to go on the way they have for all these years and we're NOT going to change their hearts or minds one iota. I don't honestly think war among them will ever end until there is but one faction left and I suspect even then those would find something to begin fighting with each other over. The entire area needs to be subdivided not by country bounds currently established but by sect boundaries. They are able only to get along within their own sect and barely able to do that.

If we divide them up so that each sect has it's own boundaries and then tell them step over those bounds and we'll pound you to hell and walk away to let you pick up the pieces and then DO IT if they don't listen is the best solution I can offer.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline alsaqr

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Re: Please explain your "cut and run" and "choose to lose" jargon
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2007, 08:42:14 AM »
Quote
"They are perfectly happy to go on the way they have for all these years and we're NOT going to change their hearts or minds one iota. I don't honestly think war among them will ever end until there is but one faction left and I suspect even then those would find something to begin fighting with each other over. "

Beautiful.  i worked in the M/E for seven years.  Talked and argued with Syrians, Iraqis, Palestinians, Saudis, Kuwaitis, Sudanese, Lebanese, Jordanians and others.   There is little tradition of "country" in the Middle East.  There is a tradition of tribal territories ruled by kings and sheiks.  Democracy is never going to work in the M/E because the people who live there do not consider democracy to be important.