Author Topic: .223 and twist rate?? (Read 1451 times)

detritus · « **on:** May 05, 2003, 09:18:18 PM »

this may have been covered a number of times, but i i'm not seeing a post. and need an answer to this because it will influence the purchase of my next rifle.

Is a 1in9 twist sufficent for shooting a .223 out to 600yards?? if so, what bullet weights are recomended.

i'm looking into an F-class gun for my local club's 600 prone match. and need to know if the rifle in .223, i have in mind has a fast enough twist to do the job effectively. or if i need to move up to a .308 fr this use.

than you for your time and any info you cna give.

sebastian · « **Reply #1 on:** May 06, 2003, 03:10:33 AM »

detritus, i think i have "similar" problem with you (but mine is an half of your range). Oh ya, first i'm sorry for my english (it's not my language here,lol).
I myself will choose a 7 or 8 twist for that range. This is if we assume we need heavier bullet and higher BC to "reduce" wind problem.
It's a pity that i chose a 1:12 twist for my 300m range. That's because i ordered a complete/stocked rifle (Rem700VSSF). Now i think i want to order another 8 twist barrel-blank from Hart/Shilen/Douglas to suit my need...for heavier pills.
I think we can go up to 77 or even 80grainers (hpbt-SMK) for a 8 twist. Perhaps just 69gr or so for a 9 twist. My 1:12 just 55gr max i believe.
I think you can't go wrong with .308 for that range. But i don't know how the "shooting rules" overthere??? What is F-class? How about the caliber, i mean should you use a given (one) caliber for "a class" of competition?
Please teach me about benchrest-standing-prone-kneeling-sitting positions overthere. The competition/event, etc.... I like to learn and it must be good to learn from an expert like you.
Oh ya, i'm from Indonesia (far away from you-around the equator-country). Shooting-competition, etc...weren't like your conditions overthere for sure........ :oops:

Jose Grande · « **Reply #2 on:** May 06, 2003, 04:56:47 AM »

Yes,in .223 1-9 will work well with the big bullets you need for that. 69gr. BTHP or the 70odd grain BT's.

detritus · « **Reply #3 on:** May 06, 2003, 05:38:26 AM »

Sebastian,

First off i am no "expert" just another shooter, who happens to be looking into trying a new way to compete.

the "F-class", i referred to is a a shooting category, along with Service rifle and Match rifle, in the NRA High power sport. and though i do not know ALL the details this "class" (as it has been explained to me, by my local match director) is a sort of "any gun, any sights" group, that was created to get more shooters involved in the sport, and also to allow competitors who love shooting High Power but no longer have the eyesight to shoot iron sights at an extended distance.

the only limitation on caliber for F-class i am aware of is that it must be a high power centerfire rifle caliber, (.223, .308, 30-06, 6mm, etc the list could go on forever) but since at leat part of a match is going to be shot at 600yards. it is advisable to use a chambering that is capable of accuracy out to that range.

as for "F-class" as practiced at my local shooting range/club ( i can not speak for any other location). so far i have only seen it shot at the monthly "600yard, Prone match" which (unless my memory fails me) here locally is a 60 round match, fired in 3 twenty round relays, all from the prone position at the 600 yard line. Because of the number of local "F-class" shooters that are also, a little less agile and/or able to get up from a prone position easily, than they used to be. the match director here also allows the F-class shooters to fire from a bench if they need to. also unlike Service rifle and match rifle shooters, F-class competitors are allowed a Bi-pod or other rest.

I hope that has been of some help in understanding. and i'm fairly sure after this lengthy and rather amaturish explanation that, Josegrande will chime in again with more and better info. :grin:

J-G thanks for the info, i thought that, that would be the case, he gun in question is a Savage 10FP (one of the new accu-trigger ones, boy is that trigger sweet!!) and i was fairly certain i could get decent accuracy out to 300 b/c the 110FP i had actually did pretty good that far with 55gr BTHPs. but that was as far as i ever shot that one. and i KNEW that 55grainers at 600 would be like throwing spitballs!!
Oh and BTW, thanks for all the info you gave me back in March (yes Same Detritus as Off the SASSwire, though i visit there less often now :? )

Jose Grande · « **Reply #4 on:** May 06, 2003, 11:06:14 AM »

No, I can't ampliphy on your coments on F class. We shoot NRA HI POWER but we don't have an F class. We do offer sporting rifle days to those with scopes on their rifles.

And I'm sorry, but I don't remember just what we talked about in March. Hi-Power most likely. :grin:

Bob_K · « **Reply #5 on:** May 06, 2003, 03:30:55 PM »

For 600 yards with the mousegun caliber I'd opt for a 1:7 barrel and shoot 80 gr VLD (Very Low Drag) bullets. 1:8 and 1:9 will work with 69 and 70 grain pills. This seems to be the choices for the Service Match AR's.

The above is not based on a lot of personal experience, however, since I Distinguished with the M14 and 7.62MM before the secrets to make the mousegun perform were widely practiced. I did pull butts for a couple of excellent mousegunners, and saw that in the right hands, the caliber will perform! (Even in the fishtail winds at Perry.)

redial · « **Reply #6 on:** May 06, 2003, 06:30:46 PM »

I'm with Bob, I went out with a WOOD stocked rifle! My last purchase was a Rock River DCM (CMP!) gun though, and I'm not looking back.

I've run an F-Class up here but no one shoots it except at 1000 yards. From my own experience with 1-9" .223's, your best luck would be with Jimmy Knox's 70 grain VLD's or his 75's if your barrel will stabilize them. My Savage varmint rigs even shoot the 80 gr Sierra passably although many have snorted that that's impossible. Another would be Hornady's 75 gr A-Max (which I shoot at 600 out of my service rifle).

The 1-9" is marginal at that distance, truthfully. It'll work - but only just.

Redial

Jose Grande · « **Reply #7 on:** May 06, 2003, 07:01:13 PM »

Since you don't have the gun yet, go for the 1-7 & the big BTHP 80gr. at 600. It should do very well. I don't know about getting that barrel from Savage though on a factory rifle.

sebastian · « **Reply #8 on:** May 06, 2003, 08:37:12 PM »

Guys, i would like to know what brands available overthere for VLD bullet and grain options, please?....
Many thanks for the helps.
In advance,
Sebastian.

sebastian · « **Reply #9 on:** May 06, 2003, 08:42:50 PM »

Are VLD bullets "very helpful" in a just 300meters?
What is "mousegun"

...

Jose Grande · « **Reply #10 on:** May 07, 2003, 04:11:32 AM »

VLD just refers to bullets with a high Ballistic Coefficent. They will help you at 300 if you are a good shot. They fight the wind better too. The Matchking is a high B.C. bullet made by Sierra.
Mousegun refers to the AR-15, designed by Eugene Stoner , first mass produced by Colt,although Armilite did build some first.

sebastian · « **Reply #11 on:** May 07, 2003, 06:09:35 AM »

Thanks for the info, "JG"! I just realize that VLD=high BC.....dumb question!.
BTW, can you tell me how to attach a pic(s)??
In another forum i just had to click "browse"-option on their page and choose an image in my ACDSee-Inbox...just something like that.
I can't see this "feature" in this forum?

Jose Grande · « **Reply #12 on:** May 07, 2003, 10:58:22 AM »

In your profile is the setting for uploading an avatar. 80X80 pixels I think. If you just can't do it, contact Graybeard, & he'll help you. Use pm or e-mail.

detritus · « **Reply #13 on:** May 08, 2003, 03:36:53 PM »

Quote

I don't remember just what we talked about in March. Hi-Power most likely

Yepper, somewhere along the line one of ther guys off the SASSwire gave me your e-mail and said to hit you up for info on starting out in service rifle. after a few exchanges you also put me in contact with Doug Bowser.

well i still fully intend to start shooting an Service rifle AR-15 for XTC matches in the near future, but right now it looks as if i'll be better off and quicker "into the game" so to speak if i start shooting in the local prone matches first. BTW here locally the Match directors call pretty much anything that shows up with a scope an "F-Class gun" i go by what they call it. and as stated they are allowing use of bipods and other common mechaincal rests. then again i don't ever remember seeing an award for "1st in F-class" given.

thank you all for the replies so far, it has helped alot in my understanding of what i need to look into components wise once i get the rifle. Since i have decided to get one of the Savage 10FPs and do not foresee a barrel change in the near future. i am currently limited to what a 1in9 will allow. there is no telling what i may do a year or two years from now if i find i truly like the sport and beleive that an equipment upgrade would be helpful. :grin:

But like i said i'm, still Debating though whether a .308 might be better suited to the task at hand. oppinions on that are welcome as well.

thank you again.

Jose Grande · « **Reply #14 on:** May 08, 2003, 07:07:18 PM »

If I knew you I could help you more but I don't know your situation. If you can afford it get a Model 70 target rifle in .223 or .308. There are really good sights to be had for that rifle & it will flat shoot. It is about the best out of the box rifle for the purpose you can buy.

.308 is a very accurate round but it has more recoil. In a heavy barrel Winchester though it's not too bad.

detritus · « **Reply #15 on:** May 08, 2003, 09:35:03 PM »

Quote

If I knew you I could help you more

I'll email you with more specific info in the morning, might be of use in helping "get me straightened out".

i hope you'll excuse my not wanting to post my full situation etc here (there are somethings that might make a difference, that i'd just prefer not be on a forum).

Jose Grande · « **Reply #16 on:** May 09, 2003, 05:13:20 PM »

Well, whatever you say in an e-mail won't be said here.

Green3845 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 26, 2004, 05:07:24 AM »

Sebastian-

VLD means "very low drag", a term coined by Jimmy Knox of JLK bullet fame. It usually consists of a secant ogive bullet and a boattail.

Berger Bullets make VLD's in .224 diameter in 70, 75 and 80 grain weights.

JLK makes .224 VLD's in 75, 80, 90grain weights.

Neither Sierra, nor Hornady's, 80 gr. .224 bullet is a VLD.

Detritus---

My wife's dedicated prone rifle is in .223. It is a Rem 700 SA with a 30" 6.5 twist PacNor barrel in a laminated prone stock. When she shoots a prone match, her load is a moly'd 90 JLK over a stiff charge of VV N540. With the right twist and bullet in a .223, you aren't giving up much of anything at 600 to 1000, except to the 6.5/284's. She has shot a couple of matches "F Class" for fun. She said it was really enjoyable to not have to get a coat and sling on, but just lay down and shoot!