Author Topic: tc encore accuracy? (Read 8378 times)

lonemeabuck · « **on:** January 30, 2007, 04:03:47 PM »

I want to start by saying I am new to this great forum and hope to find some answers to my problems.

I purchased a TC encore 50 cal muzzleloader about 3 years ago and it quickly became the deadliest rifle I owned. It is very accurate, shooting about 1 1/2" at 100 yds.
Problem started about a year later when I purchased a 26" stainless in 7mm mag. I topped it off with Leupold QR base/rings and a Burris 3-9x scope. After spending over $200 on different factory ammo (different brands and bullet weights), and other scopes, the best I could get was 3 1/2" groups with Rem 150gr Accutips (All other ammo shot well over 5" groups at 100). At this point I thought this was the best I could get with this setup.

Recently I purchased a second centerfire barrel, a 24" stainless in 243 win. I topped this barrel with Leupold DD base/rings and a Nikon Monarch 3-9x. I thought anything could be better than the previous barrel. Well I was wrong. Again after trying different ammo (different brands and bullet weights), I could only muster 5 1/2" groups with 100 gr win soft points at 100 yds.

These groups were confirmed by at least 2 different shooters shooting off bench/sandbags.

I have tried using washers between the barrel and forend, as suggested in this forum, with no improvement.

Honestly, I have never had these problems with any other firearm. A local gunsmith advised me not to spend anymore money on this gun.

I want this gun to work. Please help.

Gdbyrd · « **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2007, 04:27:11 PM »

Unfortunately the more I read about these guns the more and more I see this...I especially hear about it with 7mm's and semi-often with .243's. There are a variety of things you can do to increase accuracy, but it sounds like you've already tried some of them. I wouldn't take your gunsmith's word for it...I'd keep giving it a go.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #2 on:** January 30, 2007, 05:09:51 PM »

Lmea$,

I had some accuracy issues with my 243 when I first got it. I discussed this in detail at this post http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,109458.0.html Scroll down to about the 4th post or so and I had posted pictures of what I did to my pro-hunter.

Hope this helps.

Dave

lonemeabuck · « **Reply #3 on:** January 30, 2007, 05:58:02 PM »

I have used a pair of rubber O rings between the forend and the barrel. I tried tightening the forend screws to approximately the same compression. This did seem to "Float" the barrel, passing the dollar bill test.
This really didn't improve anything.

The only thing that seemed to help was a Simms deresonator, shrinking the 7mm mag group from ~4.5 to 3.5 inches

flinthead · « **Reply #4 on:** January 30, 2007, 07:18:26 PM »

lonemeabuck, trust me on what I'm about to tell you...sell all the barrels you have for your Encore, take that money and order a barrel from Match Grade Machine in your favorite caliber. I can almost promise you it will shoot an inch group if you do your part. I was in your same shoes... I really wanted an accurate Encore because I loved the gun so much but after two different factory TC barrels I was getting the same old 3 to 5 inch 100 yard groups. I sold those and bought a MGM 7 mag barrel and my Encore will shoot 1/2 inch groups with factory Federal 160 Accubonds at 100 yards. IMHO, for the most part, It's has nothing to do with the forearm... the Encore barrel must lock up the exact same way every time It's closed or It won't shoot the same... the MGM barrel takes care of this... very nice people to deal with also. www.matchgrademachine.com... hope this helps!

Davemuzz · « **Reply #5 on:** January 31, 2007, 01:37:09 AM »

Lmea$,

Ok...you can certanily follow flinthead's advice and chuck all of your current barrels, go to MGM, spend $400 or better per barrel and get some fine shootin barrels. There is no doubt that MGM makes some excellent custom barrels that will shoot the eyes out of flys at 100 or even 200 yards.

However.......you have said you went the rubber washer float route. What I'm sayin is IMHO, the rubber washer route s$cks BIG time. And I say that from personal experience. I tried the rubber washer method. I don't think it's good AT ALL because when you tighten down the screws, the rubber compresses and you get a different touque setting on your barrel\forarm every time you do this.

Now, I'm no expert when it comes to this stuff....but look at the guys who are. All the aftermarket guys use their propriatery hangbar systems that are metal. Essentially, it comes down to 2 contact points with the barrel against a metal bar, and then the metal bar screws to the forarm. NO RUBBER STUFF.

So, before you sell....and then order.....and then waite 6 to 9 weeks for a barrel....and find out maybe it's just your forarm....try to float your forarm using a metal system. Hey....what do you have to lose?

Here is a 6 shot group from my 243 the first time I went to the range after I did my float. Yeah....find the #6 hole? I did take 6 shots....it went in a "same hole" so close that you have to hold the target to see it.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 31, 2007, 02:13:14 AM »

I agree with Davemuzz, stay away from the rubber washer. I use steel washers and they work great for me.

lonemeabuck · « **Reply #7 on:** January 31, 2007, 02:22:34 AM »

Thanks for all your responses. I will try a metal washer next range session.

I have heard of the hangbar system but,

1. does it help?

2. Can I install myself or is a gunsmith needed?

3. How much does it cost?

Thanks again.

S & W 642 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 31, 2007, 02:56:30 AM »

If you keep having these accuracy problems you may want to give TC a call and talk to there service people. I did with my pistol and I sent the barrell back to them and they found a problem with that barrell and sent me a new barrell that shoots great. Now if I could only shoot as consistant as the barrell it would be great.

flinthead · « **Reply #9 on:** January 31, 2007, 05:22:40 AM »

If you get an MGM barrel you won't need the hangerbar system... my forearm is bolted directly to the barrel. I did however have that system placed on a factory TC barrel that I had and it didn't help a thing. Try what these other guys have told you about the washers, perhaps that will work...don't get me wrong I'm a TC man but I got to believe based on my experience that the factory TC barrels are not made from quality blanks and are not made with the same attention to detail that makes a truly accurate barrel and their in lies the problem. I wish you all the luck in the world on the forearm fix but I will wager It doesn't help much If at all... but hey maybe I don't know as much as I think I do... or at least that's what my wife keeps telling me...

Davemuzz · « **Reply #10 on:** January 31, 2007, 07:50:00 AM »

Flinthead, I agree with you wholeheartedly about custom barrels. They are excellent performers. But then, that's why you pay the top dollar and wait so long to get one. But even the custom makers make sure they keep the forarms away from the barrels.

All I'm sayin to Lmea$ is try the cheap'n easy route first. Then, if that doesn't work, take the next step. My 243 was shootin real nice 4" and better groups when I first got it.

The float isn't that tought to do.

flinthead · « **Reply #11 on:** January 31, 2007, 04:21:26 PM »

I'm with you 100 % Dave on the barrel float... If that works, awesome. When I bought my barrel from MGM, Kerry told me that floating the barrel with the hangerbar system would not be necessary for the average hunter... only a shooter that needed extreme accuracy would need to do this with one of their barrels... and from what I understand it's his dad or father in-law that does a rendition of the hangerbar. I certainly wish Mr. lonemea$ all the luck in the world with the washers... what most people don't realize is that once you have bought a couple of factory TC barrels and all the components to reload those calibers in a vain attempt to produce accuracy you could have bought that custom barrel that will almost always shoot very well. peace!

Keith L · « **Reply #12 on:** February 01, 2007, 03:14:40 AM »

"what most people don't realize is that once you have bought a couple of factory TC barrels and all the components to reload those calibers in a vain attempt to produce accuracy you could have bought that custom barrel that will almost always shoot very well. peace! "

I have a dozen factory barrels and they all shoot. None took much to get them there.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 01, 2007, 03:59:14 AM »

Keith L, I have the same experience. I own and have owned well over 30 different Encore barrels. Not one was a problem getting great groups. Sure they are not bench rest shooing machines, but when I get MOA and some times sub MOA with a standard non-custom Encore barrel, that says a lot of T/C's barrels.

G Curtis · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2007, 04:56:41 AM »

I have had accuracy issues with a specific action in the past. Barrels that shot fine on other actions had poor accura y with this particular one. After much searching and experimenting I found that it had a week main spring that was casuing erratic ignition. New spring fixed it right up and the accuracy came to this action. Not saying this will fix yours but it is worth looking at.

Buckskin · « **Reply #15 on:** February 01, 2007, 05:21:12 AM »

I didn't read all of the above posts so this may already be there. But I would try an oversized hinge pin. That did wonders for me, along with the barrel floating. I got it from that "censored" site that someone here has a problem with. I got the 1x and the 2x pins and ended up using the 2x. Really firmed up the feel of the gun. A lighter trigger spring may help also. (same site).

kudzu · « **Reply #16 on:** February 01, 2007, 07:31:23 AM »

I have had great luck with TC factory barrels also. 25-06 sub 1/2'' groups at 100 with fac 117 hotcores. A 22-250 that shoots cloverleaf groups at 100 with fac Rem 50gr accutips. Have a 7mag coming soon and hope for the same results. These are on the same frame. Have a new frame that I will replace the sear spring in as I did my first and see what happens. My least accurate TC barrel is my 338wm which comes in at around 2'' at 100 using several differant fac loadings. Am going to work on this one and hope to have better results. (have until 2008 when my next elk hunt is booked). Only bought the 338wm as a backup for my 300rum sendero, at least that's what I told the wife. Can't travel 2800 miles without at least 3 backup rifles.
Seems if 4'' is all you can get ,I would contact TC. I've never had and centerfire that bad. Oh well maybe I just lucky, Good Luck, DM

ps- All my tc equipment is fac pro hunter stuff except for the cencored sear springs. Have not floated or sanded anything

Buckskin · « **Reply #17 on:** February 01, 2007, 09:17:31 AM »

Wives are suckers aren't they. I told my wife that I was done buying guns about 5 guns ago. I said that I had all that I needed. But now I tell her "need is such a funny word".

lonemeabuck · « **Reply #18 on:** February 01, 2007, 11:41:51 AM »

Thanks for all your suggestions.

I will try a more aggressive forend float and order those oversized hinge pins.

I guess if it doesn't work than I will give TC a call. I know they stand behind their products.

If that doesn't work, the barrels will probably appear in the classifieds.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #19 on:** February 01, 2007, 12:52:49 PM »

Lmea$,

Now, I don't want to cause any heartburn here, and I don't mean to flame anyone who uses an oversize pin.....BUT I would advise against using an oversize pin in your Encore. Especially a brandy new one....heck, even an old one.

Now I think...but I'm not sure....if you jam one of these oversize pins in your encore, you may void the warranty on both the frame and the barrel. Not a good thing. Call T\C and just ask 'em that before you order the big 'ol pin...they will tell ya straight up.

Again, I'm not gonna respond to any counters of the holyness of these pins. But my T\C's don't have 'em and they shoot sub MOA with all factory barrel's. BTW, my handloads don't cost me an arm and a leg to work up....so I really don't get that theroy at all.

Dave.

crawford769 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 02, 2007, 03:39:48 PM »

my 7mm rem mag barrel shoots under 3/4" with rem 140gr psp's and h1000. groups with imr4350 and 154gr sst's were over 2" though so i would say the barrel is picky.

Buckskin · « **Reply #21 on:** February 05, 2007, 09:42:14 AM »

The oversized hinge pins are only a couple thousands bigger. The 1x actually measured the same as the factory pin, go figure what that means. The 2x drives tight, I don't need to vise it in and bang the heck out of it but it does need to be driven in. The gun feels tighter and group are way tighter with the same rounds. And if that is the case that TC doesn't approve of the oversized, I would just put the standard back in when I ship it.

Sourdough · « **Reply #22 on:** February 09, 2007, 02:12:24 PM »

I got totally frustrated with the Encore. It is a great muzzleloader, that's all. All the other barrels I got none of them shot for beans. Got rid of them. Now if I want accuracy I shoot my TCR. The Encore can't compete, they are not even in the same ball park.

teddy12b · « **Reply #23 on:** February 10, 2007, 04:11:06 AM »

I have a stainless encore in 30-06 26" heavy barrel. Mine shoots just fine. I get around 1 - 1 1/2 groups with factory ammo. I haven't read many complaints from guys with the 30-06 barrels.

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 10, 2007, 07:54:14 AM »

I've had 5 different Encore's and barrels in .22 Hornet through the .50 muzzleloader. All of them shot ok, with more than enough hunting accuracy. I wouldn't say that any of them were supreme tack-drivers, mostly in the 1.5" range or so. Like I said, plenty good enough for 99.9% of hunting. I used the over-size pins on one of the actions, and it did make a difference in accuracy. I think that it was the 1x pin that worked. On that frame, the factory pin fell out of the hole if the forearm wasn't on the gun, and there was a bit of lateral play. The 1x pin tightened it up perfectly. But that's just one gun. That's also before I learned that they void the factory warranty.

Honestly, the oversize pins are the last route I'd take. There are way too many barrel makers that produce extreme accuracy, and don't mention anything about the pins. There is only one guy (we all know who that is) that makes the pins and preaches about their benefits. If you read past posts on GB, you'll see that there are hardly any about the pins, most accuracy tricks involve the free floated forearm and the springs in the gun.

If the pins were the cure all that they are hyped to be, you'd see a lot more feedback recommending them.

lonemeabuck · « **Reply #25 on:** February 10, 2007, 06:15:52 PM »

HAD SOME TIME THIS WEEK SO I WAS ABLE TO PERFORM A MORE AGRESSIVE "FOREARM FLOAT".
USED A PAIR OF CONTOURED METAL WASHERS WITH LONGER SCREWS. ALSO SANDED THE FOREND AND
WAS ABLE TO HAVE AT LEAST 1/8" BETWEEN BARREL AND FOREND.

WITH ALOT OF HOPE, I WENT TO THE RANGE BUT HOPE SOON TURNED TO DISGUST. NO REAL CHANGE.

SO I CALLED TC AND THE BARRELS ARE ON THEIR WAY BACK TO THE FACTORY. I WILL LET YOU KNOW IN 6-8 WKS.

PS- IF OVERSIZED HINGE PINS AND FOREND FLOATING SEEM TO HELP PERFORMANCE OF THIS GUN, WHY DOESN'T TC CORRECT
THESE AND OTHER ISSUES?
WHY DO WE HAVE TO WORK ON THIS GUN TO MAKE IT SHOOT STRAIGHT?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 11, 2007, 01:36:49 AM »

It is not just a T/C issue, a lot of guns need tweaking to get the best performance from them, some guns don't need anything and some are done at the factory and you pay for that. I have glass bedded and floated several rifles to get the best accuracy from them.
But all in all, I have not have to do much or anything at all to get any of my Encore barrels to shoot well.

Keith L · « **Reply #27 on:** February 11, 2007, 01:47:57 AM »

It is part of the hobby for some of us to work on our guns to get the maximum performance out of them. There are others who prefer to buy them already peaked, and are willing to pay the premium price for that performance. It is part of the richness of the hobby.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #28 on:** February 11, 2007, 03:23:27 AM »

Quote from: lonemeabuck on February 10, 2007, 06:15:52 PM

WHY DOESN'T TC CORRECT
THESE AND OTHER ISSUES?
WHY DO WE HAVE TO WORK ON THIS GUN TO MAKE IT SHOOT STRAIGHT?

Loanmea$,

Redhawk and Keith are right. It's not just a T\C issue. Heck, 4 years ago I bot a Smith 629 44 mag and paid....I dunno, like $600 plus for it. Now, I could send it back to Smith and get there performance center trigger job, timing check, chamfer, forcing cone cut..yada, yada, yada all for a second mortgage on my house. Some guys do some of this stuff themselves.

My buddy bot a new super Redhawk. Nice gun. All Ruger triggers suck. Why can't they fix these at the factory? I dunno, but I tell ya, he spent $80 on a trigger job and it's a whole different gun! A real pleasure to shoot.

Some guys shoot there guns once a year and a 4" "deer hunting" group is quite acceptable. Other guys (like me, probably you and most guys on this forum) 4" groups are a challenge to be whooped!

Dave

flinthead · « **Reply #29 on:** February 11, 2007, 04:58:03 AM »

Lonemea$, please see all my above posts if you want your gun to shoot!