primers

[jjvw]

Can anyone explain how 25 acp conversions are better because they have less power than 209's,
 yet the Ultimate Firearms use mag rifle primers because their hotter?
Sounds like the 2 theories are conflicting.
<www.ultimatefirearms.com>

I tried the winchester T7 209 primers.
They worked in my encore. Less blow-by, no difference in accuracy.
I had one box of T7 pellets open from last season that they would not ignite in my huntsman but did in the encore.
Switching back to full power rem 209's they seemed to fire ok but were not checked for velocity.
A newly opened box of the same age worked fine in both guns with all primers.

[Busta]

The Huntsman breechplug was designed for loose powder. Mine will not reliably (100%) set off 777 pellets either, but will Pyrodex pellets. I use the .25 ACP plug because I like not having blowback, not so much for the accuracy, but that is an added benefit in my case. The convenience of using a socket for removal, another added benefit of the .25 ACP plug. Some claim to have no crud ring, I still get a little with 777 FFG and more with 777 FFFG. I tried the 777 primers in the Huntsman with the primer carriers, I had more blowback and still had the crud ring.

As for the Ultimate, you need to understand the ignition design (breech plug) of that rifle, it is like no other. I first handled the Ultimate at a hunting show about 10 years ago, it is truely the ultimate for shooting Black Powder substitutes. Not to mention, they are shooting 200 grain pellet charges. Read this, especially the last paragraph on page 3 and the first paragraph on page 4.
http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/pdfs/article_precisionshooting.pdf

[Biff Mayhem]

So use the full power Rem 209s. Two other good, semi-strong 209 choices are the regular Winchesters and regular CCIs.

[Keith Lewis]

The primer needed for your rifle depends on the breechplug design and the powder used. Some rifles handle the full power 209 primers and some do not and require a less poweful primer. The Omega is one that does not like the full power 209 primers or at least mine does not. You have to decide on what powder and bullet you are using in what rifle and then determine what primer works best for you. There is no set standard that will cover all rifles and all conditions.

[MI.sabot]

Keith...Busta:

Question for you guys.  I have the .25ACP conversion for my Sidekick.  Just need to get out to the range.
Going with T7 loose powder but still have some T7 pellets laying around.

How does the .25ACP breechplug and the small rifle primers handle T7 pellets?
I know loose is the way to go, but I'm curious how they would work either just to use them up or for a quick second shot in the field.

Thanks

[Busta]

MI.sabot,

I couldn't tell you, I have never tried the 777 or Pyrodex pellets with the .25 ACP plug in my Huntsman. It is a different design than the standard plug, but my gut tells me it would not be good. When I said reliably, what I meant was that I would get some delayed ignition with the Rem 209-4 primers and Win 209 primers with 777 pellets. The design of the plug is for loose powder, the pellets are over an inch from the primer. The loose powder is the way to go IMO.

As they say, there is only one way to know for sure. Just be prepared for some delayed/hang firing.

I will not hunt with something, unless I am 100% confident in my equipment, and 777 pellets don't give me that with 209's.

[Redhawk1]

MI.sabot, I have an Encore with a 25 ACP breech plug. I have shot both loose triple 7 powder and triple 7 pellets and had equal success with both. I hunter 2 years with the triple 7 pellets and the 25 ACP without one hang fire or fail to fire.  I only use the powder now, because of cost and I can shot almost twice  as much for the same cost. I do have some triple 7 pellets left that I would use for a quick second shot if I had to load real fast.

jjvw, the theory behind the 25 ACP breech plug is that it will not move the projectile off the powder charge as the 209 will. In my experience I have gained a 1/2 inch off my groups going to the 25 ACP breech plug, almost no crud ring and I am able to load a 3rd, 4th and even a 5th sabot without any problems or having to swab the barrel between shots. . 

[scratcherky]

IMO the 209 triple7 (777) primers worked much better in my Encore than the 25 ACP breech plug.

[Keith Lewis]

Keith...Busta:

Question for you guys.  I have the .25ACP conversion for my Sidekick.  Just need to get out to the range.
Going with T7 loose powder but still have some T7 pellets laying around.

How does the .25ACP breechplug and the small rifle primers handle T7 pellets?
I know loose is the way to go, but I'm curious how they would work either just to use them up or for a quick second shot in the field.

Thanks

I have not shot any T7 pellets as I am a loose powder guy and can't see the advantage of pellets in my personal view. If you want to try them I would suggest that you start with a fairly hot rifle primer. Depending on what is available I would suggest a magnum rifle primer possibly a Federal since Federal tends to make hotter primers in most configurations. Due to the long run for the fire to get to the pellet the more fire you can send the better chance of good ignition.

[jjvw]

thanks for the thoughts on this. It's about what I was thinking.
What bothered me is  if the accurate arms use a hotter primer than the 209,
why doesn't it have problems moving the charge before ignition?

Any one know of aftermarket breech plugs other than the 25 conversion for H&R or Encore?

[Redhawk1]

thanks for the thoughts on this. It's about what I was thinking.
What bothered me is  if the accurate arms use a hotter primer than the 209,
why doesn't it have problems moving the charge before ignition?

Any one know of aftermarket breech plugs other than the 25 conversion for H&R or Encore?

Who is "accurate arms"? If you meant Ultimate Firearms, it is because there system is different than the Encore and H&R. Call them an ask them why there is a difference.

As far as another aftermarket for breech plugs, I don't know of any.

But the only way to achieve no bow back is to keep trying to find what works for your particular gun. All the questions will not solve your problem, only trial and error. I tried a lot of things before I got the 25 ACP breech plug.

[Busta]

thanks for the thoughts on this. It's about what I was thinking.
What bothered me is  if the accurate arms use a hotter primer than the 209,
why doesn't it have problems moving the charge before ignition?

Any one know of aftermarket breech plugs other than the 25 conversion for H&R or Encore?

If you are talking about the Ultimate, it uses a .45 magnum brass case over a nipple that extends all the way up into the case primer flash hole and seals itself against the back of the case. There is absolutely no blowback, even on the inside of the case. They have a patent on this design, or I would have already machined one for myself.

As far as primers go, 209 primers have been improperly coined as being the hottest primer in muzzleloading. They are not the "hottest" as in temperature, there is just more of a charge in front of the actual primer. The "Large Magnum Rifle Primers" that the Ultimate uses actually burn about 10 times hotter than a 209 primer. The 209 primer has a much bigger charge, and therefore can actually move a bullet out the barrel, by itself. The LMRP is just much hotter, and is like shooting a column of molten lead into the charge. They call it a "controlled detonation", and because of the pellet's hollow design, they can get fire to all the pellets at the same time. This is unlike a conventional ignition, where you ignite the column of powder/pellets at one end, where it must burn from one end of the column to the other. Knight's "Power Stem" breech plug puts the fire into the center of the charge, therefore getting a much cleaner burn.

If you ever get the chance to see the Ultimate in person, ask them to show you the cut-away of the .45 case that slips over and into their breech plug, that is the only way most people can understand what is going on. There is nothing like this design in the muzzleloading industry, and they have had that design for around 10 years, maybe longer. I just seen them again less than two weeks ago, the breech plug design is the exact same thing as the rifle I seen around 10 years ago. If you get it right the first time, there is no need for improvement, and they nailed it with their design.

[Redhawk1]

Thanks for the info Busta.